Sophisticated

[Neeranam]

Can anyone give a good translation for this word?

[Neeranam]

ประสีประสา?

[keemao]

hi-so!!!!

[meadish_sweetball]

When speaking of people, in everyday conversation, ไฮโซ or แบบผู้ดี should suffice to get the point across reasonably. There is bound to be a more high register word equivalent though, but I haven't learned one, and you're just as good at checking dictionaries as I am, so I'll leave that to someone who knows.

Thai 2 English says ประสีประสา means conduct ; manner ; meaning ; sophistication ; ways of the world so I guess it should work unless the definition is incorrect.

As I understand it, sophisticated has more than one connotation in English too, so perhaps it would be a good idea to let us know what kind of context you would like to use it. As I understand it, 'sophisticated' can mean 'refined' both in the sense of 'cultured' and the sense of 'intricate'; 'advanced' (speaking of for example technique, or a machine). I believe the latter sense can be covered by ละเอียด.

[stateman]

When speaking of people, in everyday conversation, ไฮโซ or แบบผู้ดี should suffice to get the point across reasonably. There is bound to be a more high register word equivalent though, but I haven't learned one, and you're just as good at checking dictionaries as I am, so I'll leave that to someone who knows.

Thai 2 English says ประสีประสา means conduct ; manner ; meaning ; sophistication ; ways of the world so I guess it should work unless the definition is incorrect.

As I understand it, sophisticated has more than one connotation in English too, so perhaps it would be a good idea to let us know what kind of context you would like to use it. As I understand it, 'sophisticated' can mean 'refined' both in the sense of 'cultured' and the sense of 'intricate'; 'advanced' (speaking of for example technique, or a machine). I believe the latter sense can be covered by ละเอียด.

It may sound strange, but this word is mostly used in the opposite sense i.e. ไม่ประสีประสา to describe someone who is NOT sophisticated nor very knowledgeable. For example she just left a small village to visit Bkk for the first time, working in a general's household.

เธอไม่ประสีประสา. You'd expect that she doesn't know many things and probably is rather timid, making mistakes, asking silly questions.

I don't recall even a single instance where I saw this word used in the positive sense of

ประสีประสา.

[DavidHouston]

It may sound strange, but this word is mostly used in the opposite sense i.e. ไม่ประสีประสา to describe someone who is NOT sophisticated nor very knowledgeable. For example she just left a small village to visit Bkk for the first time, working in a general's household.

เธอไม่ประสีประสา. You'd expect that she doesn't know many things and probably is rather timid, making mistakes, asking silly questions.

I don't recall even a single instance where I saw this word used in the positive sense of ประสีประสา.

Allow me to confrim Stateman's explanation. I did a search of the word on Chula's Thai Concordance. http://www.arts.chula.ac.th/~ling/ThaiConc/index.html. All five results shows involved the phrase :ไม่ประสีประสา. I found the word in several newspaper articles. Here is one excerpt:

"นายกฯ ทักษิณก็ไม่ใช่คนหน้าใหม่หรือผู้ไม่ประสีประสาทางการเมือง" "Prime Minister Thaksin is not an 'new face' or an unsophisticated person in politics."

What is interested in this example is that the Thai uses a double negative to indicate positive sophistication. This usage only emphasizes Stateman's point.

[stateman]

What is interested in this example is that the Thai uses a double negative to indicate positive sophistication.

DavidH's post reminds me of what I read once. Setting was in a college English classroom, where the prof. was lecturing about how in English you can mix positive and negative to mean something negative. You can mix a double-positive to mean positive. But you can NOT mix double negatives to mean positive.

A voice was heard coming from the back of the class, "yeah, right!"

Everyone got a good laugh.

[Rikker]

That voice was Sidney Morgenbesser. It's a funny true story (even if the actual quotation was "Yeah, yeah" ).

[meadish_sweetball]

When speaking of people, in everyday conversation, ไฮโซ or แบบผู้ดี should suffice to get the point across reasonably. There is bound to be a more high register word equivalent though, but I haven't learned one, and you're just as good at checking dictionaries as I am, so I'll leave that to someone who knows.

Thai 2 English says ประสีประสา means conduct ; manner ; meaning ; sophistication ; ways of the world so I guess it should work unless the definition is incorrect.

As I understand it, sophisticated has more than one connotation in English too, so perhaps it would be a good idea to let us know what kind of context you would like to use it. As I understand it, 'sophisticated' can mean 'refined' both in the sense of 'cultured' and the sense of 'intricate'; 'advanced' (speaking of for example technique, or a machine). I believe the latter sense can be covered by ละเอียด.

It may sound strange, but this word is mostly used in the opposite sense i.e. ไม่ประสีประสา to describe someone who is NOT sophisticated nor very knowledgeable. For example she just left a small village to visit Bkk for the first time, working in a general's household.

เธอไม่ประสีประสา. You'd expect that she doesn't know many things and probably is rather timid, making mistakes, asking silly questions.

I don't recall even a single instance where I saw this word used in the positive sense of

ประสีประสา.

I'd be interested to hear if you agree with my other suggestions too, or have your own suggestions which might work better.

And also if there are any other high register words that could work, since ประสีประสา seems to be used only in negative contexts...?

[stateman]

When speaking of people, in everyday conversation, ไฮโซ or แบบผู้ดี should suffice to get the point across reasonably. There is bound to be a more high register word equivalent though, but I haven't learned one, and you're just as good at checking dictionaries as I am, so I'll leave that to someone who knows.

Thai 2 English says ประสีประสา means conduct ; manner ; meaning ; sophistication ; ways of the world so I guess it should work unless the definition is incorrect.

As I understand it, sophisticated has more than one connotation in English too, so perhaps it would be a good idea to let us know what kind of context you would like to use it. As I understand it, 'sophisticated' can mean 'refined' both in the sense of 'cultured' and the sense of 'intricate'; 'advanced' (speaking of for example technique, or a machine). I believe the latter sense can be covered by ละเอียด.

I'd be interested to hear if you agree with my other suggestions too, or have your own suggestions which might work better.

And also if there are any other high register words that could work, since ประสีประสา seems to be used only in negative contexts...?

meadish_sweetball: I actually saw your post earlier, but avoided commenting on it as it would require me to scratch my head to find some good alternatives. But you put me on the spot! So I'll give it a try.

This is a tough one as it is not something you use everyday.

According to Answers.com, the following English meanings are given:

so·phis·ti·cat·ed (sə-fĭs'tĭ-kā'tĭd) adj.

1. Having acquired worldly knowledge or refinement; lacking natural simplicity or naiveté.

2. Very complex or complicated: the latest and most sophisticated technology.

3. Suitable for or appealing to the tastes of sophisticates: a sophisticated drama.

-------------

My corresponding words for the meanings above are as follows:

1. มีภูมิรู้สูง ภูมิฐาน (appearance); มีภูมิ

มีภูมิรู้สูง (mee poom ruu soong) means having much (high level of) knowledge.

ภูมิฐาน (poom taan) means someone who has a sophisticated, refined appearance/look

มีภูมิ (mee poom) means someone with knowledge, which probably is opposite naiveté? Others may comment on my choice here.

2. This seems to be a simply one, but somehow a good choice eludes me. Off hand I can offer only the following which are not to my own satisfaction:

ลึกซี้ง (luek sueng) means deep, complex, complicated. Often it is used more for someone who understands a subject thoroughly, deeply.

ลึกล้ำ (luek lump) means deep, hard to fathom.

ยุ่งยาก (yueng yaak) means complicated or messy.

ดูยาก (doo yaak) means (someone) who is hard to fathom, complex. Can't not quite 'read' the guy.

3. รสนิยมสูง (ros niyom soong) means refined taste

ดูภูมิฐาน (doo poom taan) means (having a) refined/sophisticated look

ดูโอ่อ่า (doo o aa) means (looks) expensive, luxurious.

As to your Q asking me if I agree with the meanings you posted, here is my thought:

ไฮโซ or แบบผู้ดี

ไฮโซ [high so(ciety) ] is indeed widely used to mean someone from high society. Not being part of it myself

I am not sure how these folks look! I've seen rich folks who dress well, as well as some who dress sloppily.

Some of them probably dress with a taste worse than a regular person. Ditto the way they carry themselves.

I have problem associating someone from the high society with being sophisticated. Am I being odd here?

So I think I won't use this one myself. Others may try to convince my otherwise.

แบบผู้ดี (baab poo dee) this means "like a refined person". I think this should pass the meaning of sophisticated.

In Thai there are 2 types of ผู้ดี: One who is well taught in manners, culture, etc. I think this group qualifies for being sophisticated.

Another one is the wannabe ผู้ดี, especially those who simply has money and thought they automatically become refined. I think this group doesn't qualify.

ประสีประสา (pra-see-pra-saa) probably qualifies, as being opposite to naiveté. But since in Thai it generally is not used in the positive sense as discussed in my post earlier, I find it difficult to use. Maybe I would not use it - as I don't see how.

ละเอียด (la-iad) probably is OK if you use it with refined arts/crafts. I won't use it to mean 'advanced' (speaking of for example technique, or a machine).

As for advanced, in Thai it often is used as ก้าวหน้า (gao nah), ล้ำหน้า (lump nah), ล้ำยุค (lump yuk)

Please tell me what you think.

[yoot]

It's not quite right to say that ประสีประสา is not used in the positive sense. It can be used in positive sense but it's true that you would mostly see it's used in negative sense.

Examples for using ประสีประสา in positive sense;

สำหรับเด็กโตที่รู้ประสีประสาหน่อย ก็จะถูกเกณฑ์มาช่วยดูแลเด็กเล็ก

คนที่ประสีประสาทางการเมือง ย่อมเข้าใจในธรรมชาติของเหล่านักการเมือง

ความประสีประสาในเรื่องใด ๆ นั้น สามารถเรียนรู้กันได้

I believe if you google it you will see a lot examples which used in positive sense.

As for the word 'sophisticated', it can be translated to a couple Thai words depend on which meaning is used.

For examples;

He is a guy with sophisticated tastes.

- เขาเป็นหนุ่มที่มีรสนิยมสูง

She is a sophisticated girl.

- เธอเป็นสาวที่ช่ำชองต่อโลก

For the meaning of 'complex' or 'complicated', I would use the word 'สลับซับซ้อน'

[stateman]

It's not quite right to say that ประสีประสา is not used in the positive sense. It can be used in positive sense but it's true that you would mostly see it's used in negative sense.

Examples for using ประสีประสา in positive sense;

สำหรับเด็กโตที่รู้ประสีประสาหน่อย ก็จะถูกเกณฑ์มาช่วยดูแลเด็กเล็ก

คนที่ประสีประสาทางการเมือง ย่อมเข้าใจในธรรมชาติของเหล่านักการเมือง

ความประสีประสาในเรื่องใด ๆ นั้น สามารถเรียนรู้กันได้

I believe if you google it you will see a lot examples which used in positive sense.

As for the word 'sophisticated', it can be translated to a couple Thai words depend on which meaning is used.

For examples;

He is a guy with sophisticated tastes.

- เขาเป็นหนุ่มที่มีรสนิยมสูง

She is a sophisticated girl.

- เธอเป็นสาวที่ช่ำชองต่อโลก

For the meaning of 'complex' or 'complicated', I would use the word 'สลับซับซ้อน'

Now that yoot cited the example,

สำหรับเด็กโตที่รู้ประสีประสาหน่อย ก็จะถูกเกณฑ์มาช่วยดูแลเด็กเล็ก

It comes back to me that I've seen this used before. And I agree that it is one which is used in the positive sense.

The other 2 examples cited, I haven't seen. I am learning something from the post.

Thanks to yoot for posting 'สลับซับซ้อน'. Soon after I posted my previous post and turned off my pc, this word came to me. This word now satisfies what I was trying to come up with for 'complex or complicated'.

[Ref. The 2nd meaning for sophisticated: Very complex or complicated: the latest and most sophisticated technology. ]