Having Kids

[M&M]

Hi everyone,

My past posts, although few, have always been answered with good advice. Many thanks.

My wife gave birth to our son on 09/08/2004 - he was a bit early & decided to pop out when we were on a 3 day break in Kanchanaburi. However, all went well. If anyone ever needs a good hospital in that area go to Tanakarn Hospital. The care was excellent.

My understanding of the law in this area is vague. From what I know, the UK will allow joint citizenship but Thailand does not recognize it. I have been told that if I get him a UK passport (which I mean to do) and he uses it to leave Thailand, he then basically gives up his right to Thai citizenship. On return he would have to apply for a visa as a tourist. I hope this is just one of those TIT horror stories that has no foundation. BUT, I'm a bit worried.

I would love to see him grow up with two languages, two passports, the freedom of two homes and many opportunities open to him.

Can anyone clarify the rules of this sort of scenario?

Thanks for your help, and thanks from little Matthew.

[ka12345]

I don't know about UK law but Thailand allows him to have dual citizenship. Take a look at the birth certificate and he is already listed as a Thai citizen with ID number and everything. Bring the birth certificate to your wife's amphur and get him registered in the housepaper (tabien baan). You can then go to the passport authority and get a thai PP.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Hi everyone,

My past posts, although few, have always been answered with good advice. Many thanks.

My wife gave birth to our son on 09/08/2004 - he was a bit early & decided to pop out when we were on a 3 day break in Kanchanaburi. However, all went well. If anyone ever needs a good hospital in that area go to Tanakarn Hospital. The care was excellent.

My understanding of the law in this area is vague. From what I know, the UK will allow joint citizenship but Thailand does not recognize it. I have been told that if I get him a UK passport (which I mean to do) and he uses it to leave Thailand, he then basically gives up his right to Thai citizenship. On return he would have to apply for a visa as a tourist. I hope this is just one of those TIT horror stories that has no foundation. BUT, I'm a bit worried.

I would love to see him grow up with two languages, two passports, the freedom of two homes and many opportunities open to him.

Can anyone clarify the rules of this sort of scenario?

Thanks for your help, and thanks from little Matthew.

Get dear little Matthew both passports. It is quite ok by both governments as the present laws stand.

[siam]

I have four children who currently have a British passport,and when my partner nd i move to Cmx next year they will have Thai passports,Does anyone know whether they have to do National service?As they won't speak Thai at first.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I have four children who currently have a British passport,and when my partner nd i move to Cmx next year they will have Thai passports,Does anyone know whether they have to do National service?As they won't speak Thai at first.

If they are in the country at at appropriate age for National Service, they'll take part in the ballot ( based on the present rules )

[Martin_F]

At the age of 20 (maybe 21) they have to decide for Thai purposes on being Thai.

Legally I understood that you can not have dual nationality for Thais. Although I understand that people do it.

[siam]

Thanks for your replies,my partner has got right of stay here in the UK,As long as she returns from LOS every 2 years she can legally stay here,It is myself that has to sort things out as her and the kids are fine,Sorry for hijacking the thread

[dr_Pat_Pong]

At the age of 20 (maybe 21) they have to decide for Thai purposes on being Thai.

Legally I understood that you can not have dual nationality for Thais. Although I understand that people do it.

Sorry to rain on your parade Martin, but neither of those assertions are correct. Dual nationality is permitted by both countries based on descent.

[astral]

The liability for national service extends over several years.

If they miss the ballot one year they will have to attend the next.

See the reports on the tennis star Paradon, who eventually went for the ballot this year. His is in his mid twenties.

[cmsoulbrother]

I don't know the fuure implications, but, I was told by the Canadian consulate that the Thai goivernment had recenty changed it's policy and was no longer allowing dual citizenship. I have heard elsewhere that the recent southern troubles and people holding dual Malasian/Thai citizenship have been the catalysts for the recent ban. I haven't much looked into it ( as my son is still an infant), but the consulate told me that when he reaches 18 years of age he will have to chose 1 citizenship. For now he has both Canadian and Thai passports.

I'm interested if anyone has any further information on the vagueries of Thai dual citizenship.

[M&M]

Thanks for the replies (and the hijacking!)... Still, the answers seem vague.

I know I can get my son two passports. Thai passport here and UK passport through the Embassy. Getting them is no problem. However, what are the implications of say, leaving Thailand on the UK passport, staying away for 6 months or a year and then coming back to Thailand. Does he still have Thai citizenship?

Fron what I have been told TL does NOT recognize dual cotozenship with the UK. Maybe only for neibouring countries.

One post says their child had Thai & Canadian passports but have you used both??

Thanks again, hope to hear more.

Cheers,

M&M

[NedKelly]

Cant you just go out of Thai on a Thai passport and return into Thai on a Thai passport. Then enter UK on Uk p/p etc......?

[GuestHouse]

OP,

I'm a dual national (one of which is British).

Your child is British by decent and is abosultely entitled to a British passport and 'British By Decent Nationality'.

Your child is also entitled to full Thai nationality having been born in Thailand to a Thai mother.

The answer to your travel is for your child to leave Thailand on his/her Thai passport and enter the UK on his/her British Passport.

Simple as that.

Now all you have to do is register the birth at the British Embassy and apply for the passport.

Bingo!

[samran]

I have dual Aussie/Thai PP's. Totally legal to have Thai dual nationaility. I recommend you do a search on this web site. I have posted a lot on this topic and on military service. You should do a search and read for yourself as there is still lots of misunderstanding out there.

Key things to rember:

1) Enter/Leave Thailand on Thai PP.

2) When travelling in SE Asia, I recommend you remain using Thai PP. Malaysia for instance, does not recognise the concept of dual nationity and won't let you do the PP swap. Use the British PP to travel everywhere else, so you don't have to worry about Visa's

3) Even though legal, keep your childs dual nationality as hush hush as possible, expecially from Thai authorities (except immigration who know their stuff) as they can unleash a bureaucratic nightmare on you if they think your child is really a foreigner

4) At age 20 (age of majority), a Thai will legally be able to choose to renounce their thai nationality, if they so wish. There is no obligation to choose.

5) If you are resident in Thailand and male, you are obliged to report for conscription. If you return to Thailand after 30 years of age, you will be exempted from any service.

[wolf5370]

I totally agree with samran.

My wife is a dual national Thai - she got her British passport just 6 months ago.

As everyone says above, use your British PP to enter leave the UK and avoid the Q's. Use you Thai one in and out of LOS to avoid Q's and VISA restrictions. If you enter on the British, you will have to abide by the VISA restrictions even if you are Thai!

If you come on Thai and try to leave on UK PP, they will not let you through as you will have no entry stamp.

If you arrive on UK and leave on Thai PP, then you will be listed as an overstay on the UK PP!!!!

Embassies always used to say the "dual until 19, then choose" rubbish. I have a Thai friend that was told this in the UK when trying to renew his Thai PP years ago - he left and had it done in LOS instead. It was never the case.

The Thai law allows for dual nationality. International law states that your first nationlity is you primaryb one in the case of dual nationality - if you need help in a third country, and you're a Thai with a second nationality, say UK, then the Thai embassy would help (hopefully), and the UK embassy would direct you to the Thai one.

I agree to keep it secret. Especially up-country as local cops/govt officials may not know the law as well as they should and you may experience problems. You may get asked to show your UK passport on entering LOS on your Thai one if you have no foreign entry/exit stamps on it - it will be OK though, they are just checking that you are not doing something dodgy and they DO know the law in this regard.

[siamesedream]

http://www.richw.org/dualcit/

A good site on dualcitizenship.

[IBMOPERATIONS]

Congrats on the birth of your son!...out of interest are you going to bring him up speaking bi-lingual?.....I can't imagine how confusing it must be for a baby/child to have to learn two sets of languages!...

[M&M]

Thanks for the replies and the info. Much appreciated!

Thanks also for the congrats.... to answer you question we do intend for him to be bi-lingual. Mum speaks to him in Thai, me in English. A doctor friend told me that in this situation it usually takes a bit longer for a child to start speaking but when s/he does they take off quickly and naturally in both languages. I hope that's correct.

Thanks again to all,

M&M

[jhj2000]

Persist in letting hime learn two languages, it will give him a good start in life. Many Thai people abroad don't and that is a shame

[bkk_mike]

At the age of 20 (maybe 21) they have to decide for Thai purposes on being Thai.

Legally I understood that you can not have dual nationality for Thais. Although I understand that people do it.

Sorry to rain on your parade Martin, but neither of those assertions are correct. Dual nationality is permitted by both countries based on descent.

Dr. PP

Not sure I agree completely here.

UK definitely allows dual citizenship.

Thailand doesn't actually allow for it in any of it's laws (except for minors, of course). The loophole is that once you have Thai nationality, nobody can revoke it except you.

i.e. Thai law doesn't specifically allow dual nationality, but it also doesn't specifically disallow it either. Dual nationality effectively exists in practice though as Thai law also doesn't have any way of taking it away once you have it.

- Thailand can't revoke Thai nationality under the constitution

- Thailand can't revoke your nationality of another country (as that would be down to the law of the other country).

The problem occurs when you run into people (esp. at immigration) who think that the fact that Thai law doesn't specifically allow dual nationality means dual nationality is not allowed AT ALL. (especially if you come in at a border crossing upcountry - Bangkok airport immigration are used to seeing Thai passports with no stamps though)

The bit relating to revoking your Thai nationality at 21 should only be used in 2 circumstances. First, to avoid National Service, and secondly if your other nationality doesn't allow dual citizenship. (i.e. Denmark, Belgium, Singapore, etc.). For people born with UK/Thai or US/Thai dual nationality, just don't revoke it, and you carry on with both nationalities.

Also, if the kids are growing up in Thailand, they can avoid National Service by doing certain cadet training after school I think. Of course, National Service is only an issue for male children - I'm lucky in that regard as all mine are girls.

As for the child giving up Thai nationality if he leaves the country before claiming the Thai passport - that is complete and utter <deleted>. So long as they claim their Thai nationality while still minors, it shouldn't be a problem. (And for someone born in Thailand, with a Thai birth certificate showing at least one Thai parent, it shouldn't be a problem at any age. After all - how many Thais don't get a passport until they're in their 30s or 40s).

For admin purposes, it's probably best to get them onto the Thai house book as a Thai national before they're 15. If only to make it easier to get them a Thai ID card, which makes so many other things a lot simpler. (Although it seems to be automatic for children born and registered in Thailand, it's more of an issue for children with Thai nationality born abroad).

[single_dad]

Can anyone clarify the rules of this sort of scenario?

Hi,

My kids have got Thai and British passports.

Thai people say they can only retain this until 18 and then they must choose.

I've been to the British Embassy many times in Bangkok and basically they say once he/she gets a British passport it's for life. So if your child chooses a Thai passport and then some time later decides he/she wants a British passport the embassy can't refuse one. Something to do with inherited rights.

My 'estranged' wife knew all about that...

A Thai national can only have one or the other but not dual nationality. It comes from the mother and father of different nationalities. If a Thai chooses a British passport she will need a visa to get back into her own country!

My 'wife' has got her Thai passport with a green British residence stamp in it which means she can travel between the two countries without any visa.

I must state that this 'green visa' lasts only a year or two and runs out if she stays out of the U.K. for this time. But, she just has to go to the embassy and pay her fee and it will be reinstated.

She has kids in England so they can't refuse her!

Some Thais like to have a British passport to show as a status symbol but they really are better off with their own Thai passport with a 'green stamp' in it.

Hope this helps.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Can anyone clarify the rules of this sort of scenario?

Hi,

My kids have got Thai and British passports.

Thai people say they can only retain this until 18 and then they must choose.

I've been to the British Embassy many times in Bangkok and basically they say once he/she gets a British passport it's for life. So if your child chooses a Thai passport and then some time later decides he/she wants a British passport the embassy can't refuse one. Something to do with inherited rights.

My 'estranged' wife knew all about that...

A Thai national can only have one or the other but not dual nationality. It comes from the mother and father of different nationalities. If a Thai chooses a British passport she will need a visa to get back into her own country!

My 'wife' has got her Thai passport with a green British residence stamp in it which means she can travel between the two countries without any visa.

I must state that this 'green visa' lasts only a year or two and runs out if she stays out of the U.K. for this time. But, she just has to go to the embassy and pay her fee and it will be reinstated.

She has kids in England so they can't refuse her!

Some Thais like to have a British passport to show as a status symbol but they really are better off with their own Thai passport with a 'green stamp' in it.

Hope this helps.

Don't believe those Thai people on this choose nationality at 18 issue. It is not true. And both countries do permit duality of citizenship. The duality situation for males used to be different, but gender equality issues caused the government to extend the legal right to males as well as females.

[Neeranam]

Just as I thought I understood, from the great posts by samran, wolf and bkk mike, I am now confused again.

I have always thought that at a certain age (18 or 20) my kids were supposed to hand back their Thai passport, if they have a British one(or get rid of the British one), although most people don't, and keep it qiuet.

Who is right?

Dr Pong, I will believe you. Simple question - does Thailand allow dual nationality?

You say, "yes", so I believe you, and thanks.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Just as I thought I understood, from the great posts by samran, wolf and bkk mike, I am now confused again.

I have always thought that at a certain age (18 or 20) my kids were supposed to hand back their Thai passport, if they have a British one(or get rid of the British one), although most people don't, and keep it qiuet.

Who is right?

Dr Pong, I will believe you. Simple question - does Thailand allow dual nationality?

You say, "yes", so I believe you, and thanks.

Yes old friend. Thailand permits dual nationality. The kids can hold both citizenships as long as they like.

[lopburi3]

Thai people say they can only retain this until 18 and then they must choose.

A Thai national can only have one or the other but not dual nationality. It comes from the mother and father of different nationalities. If a Thai chooses a British passport she will need a visa to get back into her own country!

Some Thais like to have a British passport to show as a status symbol but they really are better off with their own Thai passport with a 'green stamp' in it.

Hope this helps.

The three point in your post are all wrong but as you have found out often part of folklore:

1. There is no choose one of the other at age 18 or any other age. What this is based on is national service registration which would only apply to males living in Thailand. They could choose to renounce Thai citizenship to avoid service but there are much better ways as others have said.

2. A Thai can have dual nationality and can have and use two passports. If they have a British passport they use that for travel to/from UK and Thai passport to enter/leave Thailand. As is said: 'no problem'

3. A British passport will allow much more freedom of travel and they are not better off with a green stamp in a Thai passport in any way.