george Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 CORONATION DAY / HONOURS 15 women become 'Khunying' BANGKOK: -- To mark Coronation Day today, 15 women including well-known novelist Thommayanti and the wife of the Third Army commander will be awarded the Most Illustrious Order of Chula Chom Klao Member (Fourth Class), which bestows on them the notable title of ''Khunying''. Only one lady, Khunying Suwannee Patpongpanich, has moved up to Dame Grand Commander (Second Class) with the ''Thanpuying'' title. Thirty-five women are included in this year's honours list and will be bestowed with the royal decorations by His Majesty the King at the Grand Palace this evening. The 15 new ''Khunying'' who will be bestowed with the decoration of Member (Fourth Class) are Wimol Siripaiboon, or novelist Thommayanti; Nittaya Muangmanee, wife of Third Army chief Lt-Gen Picharnmeth Muangmanee; Pornnapas Watthanothai, wife of Royal Project executive Gen Noppadol Watthanothai; Sujittra Mongkolkitti, an elder sister of Central Department Store executive Suthikiati Chirathivat; Achara Phuwanartnurak, the wife of former Fourth Army chief Gen Parnthep Phuwanartnurak; Dr Thaiwadee Dullayachinda of Siriraj Hospital; Komut Oonsrisong, a fisheries researcher from Chiang Mai; Col Amnuayporn Phothisorn, Phakaphan Thehamart, Prayoonsri Kao-ian, Prapa Rattanamaythanont, Chamlong Waewpanich, Darunee Poonsap, Dr Mallika Wannakrairoj of Krungthep Hospital, and Cherdchan Saengruji. Five ''Khunying'' will be bestowed with decorations Dame Commander (Second Class) and another 14 ''Khunying'' Companion (Third Class) . Various classes of the Most Illustrious Order of Chula Chom Klao were established in 1873 by King Rama V. Men are eligible for the Knight Grand Cross (First Class), Knight Grand Commander (Second Class), Knight Commander (Second Class), Grand Companion (Third Class) and Companion (Third Class), and women the Dame Grand Commander (Second Class), Dame Commander (Second Class), Companion (Third Class) and Member (Fourth Class). --Bangkok Post 2005-05-05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SingularMess Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 So do they now immediately run out and get the Khunying hairdo? Or did they have to already have it to be considered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penelope Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 the purple hair dye shop must be doing a brisk trade this month Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marquess Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 Don't men get any titles? I know their used to be herditary titles here in Thailand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penelope Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 Don't men get any titles? I know their used to be herditary titles here in Thailand. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> my wife got her "na ayudhya" from her father, that is hereditary. I believe there are also many "commander" ranks that can be bestowed upon men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinrada Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 Don't men get any titles? I know their used to be herditary titles here in Thailand. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> my wife got her "na ayudhya" from her father, that is hereditary. I believe there are also many "commander" ranks that can be bestowed upon men. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> one of my nieces got her "na ayudhya" from her father and would also agree agree it is hereditary....but K.W. told me not to shout about it. Now I know where she gets her "attitude" from Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heng Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 It's not a title. It's a noble last name. And nowadays, it's not terribly noble. Even n'Ning (the bilingual UBC gal) is in the clan... and you can hire her for 6,000 Baht an evening to MC your wedding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinrada Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 You want to see wot our lot at at the end of the" Mall" get up to....help ma boab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajarn Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 Even Patpong has gone up a notch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baht&sold Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 (edited) I'm sure we'll see photos in many magazines 'society' pages upcoming... along with pics of other hobnobs, yes, farang and thai. Sells (apparently) Edited May 5, 2005 by bahtandsold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astral Posted May 6, 2005 Share Posted May 6, 2005 I know their used to be herditary titles here in Thailand. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There still are. I used to work with a a guy who had M.R. in front of his name. No not Mister, it was Mom Rachada, something similar to "The Honourable", in England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaiprivateeye Posted May 6, 2005 Share Posted May 6, 2005 (edited) While it's easy to poke fun at the blue-bloods who concern themselves with garnering Royal Decorations, phaleristics is a surprisingly popular hobby. Thailand is acknowledged to bestow some of the most beautiful medals in the world. Most of the awards come in numerous classes or grades for both men and women. Feast your eyes. Edited May 6, 2005 by thaiprivateeye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Other_Mac Posted May 6, 2005 Share Posted May 6, 2005 I can only assume that most of the contributors so far are American, and "don't get it". I know their used to be herditary titles here in Thailand. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There still are. I used to work with a a guy who had M.R. in front of his name. No not Mister, it was Mom Rachada, something similar to "The Honourable", in England. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> na Ayudhaya is an xth generation descendent of ML = Mom Luang. The parent of this person is MR = Mom Rajawongse (not Rachada but close enough...). The parent of this person is MC = Mom Chao. The parent of this person is Chao Fa. The parent of this person, well, I can't actually remember the proper Thai words. But the short English word is: King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heng Posted May 7, 2005 Share Posted May 7, 2005 na Ayudhaya is an xth generation descendent ofML = Mom Luang. The parent of this person is MR = Mom Rajawongse (not Rachada but close enough...). The parent of this person is MC = Mom Chao. The parent of this person is Chao Fa. The parent of this person, well, I can't actually remember the proper Thai words. But the short English word is: King. True. But it's still not a title. "Pop" Areeya (former Miss Thailand) even added a Na Ayudhaya to her name just to look good. However, this wasn't any kind of lese majeste or crime against royalty because it is indeed more like a last name (no different than Na Ranong, Na Songkla, Von Braun or Von Stein). The family association called a meeting and asked her on several occasions to change her last name (as yes, it was "legal") with "Pop" ignoring the whole thing for years. Eventually the threat of taking her to court got her to pull the last name. If it was a noble title issue, the courts wouldn't even have to get involved, as she would have been in "real" trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajarn Posted May 7, 2005 Share Posted May 7, 2005 I read that the royal affiliations only last 5 generations of down-stepping before it all ends... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Other_Mac Posted May 7, 2005 Share Posted May 7, 2005 Not contradicting you that "na Ayudhaya" isn't a title, but that seems a bit illegal to me on different grounds. As I understand it, Thai law requires (when changing your family name) that you pick a name which does not already belong to another family. While "na Ayudhaya" isn't a surname, it seems to be a claim that you belong to that family, which she doesn't. But since it was only her family that complained, I assume I'm wrong Okay here's a question: have the descendents of King Taksin got a dynastic suffix? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heng Posted May 7, 2005 Share Posted May 7, 2005 Not contradicting you that "na Ayudhaya" isn't a title, but that seems a bit illegal to me on different grounds. As I understand it, Thai law requires (when changing your family name) that you pick a name which does not already belong to another family. While "na Ayudhaya" isn't a surname, it seems to be a claim that you belong to that family, which she doesn't. But since it was only her family that complained, I assume I'm wrong Okay here's a question: have the descendents of King Taksin got a dynastic suffix? No idea about that one. I'd assume that people wouldn't want to claim it. I know the rule (not even sure if it was a law) was in effect when my grandparents changed their Chinese names to Thai names about 70+ years ago (probably longer actually as my oldest uncle is about 90... and his parents were here for awhile before they had him), but I'm not sure if it's still in effect today. I don't think it'd be a rule that would be easily enforced because of the sheer numbers of amphurs involved that CAN change your name. As the old folks say, 'the city/country wasn't as spread out back then', fewer degrees of separation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Other_Mac Posted May 7, 2005 Share Posted May 7, 2005 Oh that's easy, you just pick a name with seven syllables, and the chance of someone else having it is is greatly reduced... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajarn Posted May 7, 2005 Share Posted May 7, 2005 Not contradicting you that "na Ayudhaya" isn't a title, but that seems a bit illegal to me on different grounds. As I understand it, Thai law requires (when changing your family name) that you pick a name which does not already belong to another family. While "na Ayudhaya" isn't a surname, it seems to be a claim that you belong to that family, which she doesn't. But since it was only her family that complained, I assume I'm wrong Okay here's a question: have the descendents of King Taksin got a dynastic suffix? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I also seem to remember getting the idea that 'na Ayudhaya' is what you can use when the royal generations have passed, and that it signifies past royal connections... Not 100% sure.... Heng, have you ever heard of the '4 syllable' minimum for Chinese taking new Thai names? That is also something I heard long ago, and it seems many Thai Chinese names are at least 4 syllables... Not sure about a rule for that, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penelope Posted May 7, 2005 Share Posted May 7, 2005 I also seem to remember getting the idea that 'na Ayudhaya' is what you can use when the royal generations have passed, and that it signifies past royal connections... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> thats how i understand it, and in my wife's case the link goes back to one of Rama 5's concubines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heng Posted May 8, 2005 Share Posted May 8, 2005 Heng, have you ever heard of the '4 syllable' minimum for Chinese taking new Thai names? That is also something I heard long ago, and it seems many Thai Chinese names are at least 4 syllables... Not sure about a rule for that, though. Will ask my friends or family about it at the next group meeting. My immediate parents say "hmm... good question." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johpa Posted May 8, 2005 Share Posted May 8, 2005 I also seem to remember getting the idea that 'na Ayudhaya' is what you can use when the royal generations have passed, and that it signifies past royal connections...Not 100% sure.... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There are numerous old ruling families of the larger Muangs that are not Royals who use the Na <name of town> as a last name, Na Ayuattya, Na Chiang Mai, and others. If people are now changing their family names or using it as a title then it must be a new fashion phenomena to assist those who are unable to pony up with the funds needed to obtain peerage ratings such as Khunying. To the best of my knowledge there is no traditional usage of Na Ayuttaya to show descent from a Royal such as Mom Luang (M.L.) or Mom Ratachawang (M. R.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajarn Posted May 8, 2005 Share Posted May 8, 2005 (edited) from: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.cu...1884e0978?hl=en The great-grandchildren of a king do not bear royal rank but are entitled to use the title of Mom Rajawongse, which is not translated into English. The great- great-grandchildren bear the title of Mom Luang. Subsequent generations in the male line of decent from a king have no titles, but may add the dynastic surname of "Na Ayudhya" to the surname of the branch of the Royal Family from which they descend Jopha, I don't know where Torben got this from. Edited May 8, 2005 by Ajarn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penelope Posted May 8, 2005 Share Posted May 8, 2005 http://www.soravij.com/titles.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajarn Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 To simplify things, here is the full descriptions from http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.cu...1884e0978?hl=en The full family tree of the Chakri Dynasty is complex and at times perplexing. Each king and queen is known by several different names and titles, some posthumously conferred. Many of the princes and princesses have more than one title, and alterations can be made, not only to their rank but also to the terms describing their relationship to the reigning monarch, which change from reign to reign. These ranks and titles are finely graded; revealing nuances which explain the exact rank and relationship to the king of the individual prince or princess. This hierarchy of rank and title is unique to Thailand [although a similar, but less complex system exists within the royal family of Cambodia] and is the most elaborate system of royal rank to be found in any country in the world. There are three distinct ranks of prince and princess, but even within each rank there are finer distinctions, which divide the members into different sub-groups. The three main ranks are as follows: - The Chao Fa This title is usually restricted to the children of a king or queen. There are at present only five Chao Fa living, one prince and four princesses; they include the present Crown Prince, two daughters of His Majesty King Bhumibol Adulyadej, his sister, and the daughter of His late Majesty King Vajiravudh [Rama VI] . Another daughter of His present Majesty, the former Princess Ubol Ratana Rajakanya, who relinquished her royal title in 1972, was also of this rank. The Phra Ong Chao--there are two specific grades within this rank, those Phra Ong Chao who have the additional word Chao within the preamble to their title, and those who do not: [Phra Chao Vorawongse Ther] Phra Ong Chao--Prince or Princess and Royal Highness. [Phra Vorawongse Ther] Phra Ong Chao--Prince or Princess and Highness. The Phra Ong Chao nowadays are always the grandchildren of a king--three of the present King's grandchildren are of this rank, and the other 10 living Phra Ong Chao are all grandchildren of King Chulalongkorn [Rama V], from senior lines of descent. The Mom Chao--this is the lowest of the royal ranks and the usual title of a grandchildren of a king [except where raised to be a Phra Ong Chao]; in the case of a great-grandchild of a king who is a Mom Chao then he or she is the child of a Phra Ong Chao prince, who is himself of a grandchild of a king. The Mom Chao are known in English as Prince or Princess and Serene Highness. There are at present some 150 Mom Chao living--53 are grandchildren or great- grandchildren of King Chulalongkorn [Rama V], 82 are grandchildren or great-grandchildren of King Mongkut [Rama IV], 14 are grandchildren of the last Maha Uparaja [or Deputy King] and one, the last surviving grandchild of Second King Pinklao, who died in 1866. They are for the most part elderly and in the years to come their number will be much diminished. In the early part of this century the total of Mom Chao was much higher, numbering several hundred, and including grandchildren of King Rama III, King Rama II and even King Rama I, as well as numerous grandchildren of the earlier Maha Uparaja. By the end of the century it is likely that there will only be several dozen Mom Chao left within the Royal Family. The great-grandchildren of a king do not bear royal rank but are entitled to use the title of Mom Rajawongse, which is not translated into English. The great- great-grandchildren bear the title of Mom Luang. Subsequent generations in the male line of decent from a king have no titles, but may add the dynastic surname of "Na Ayudhya" to the surname of the branch of the Royal Family from which they descend. The Royal Family is divided into 131 different branches. Each son of a king, or Maha Uparaja, who founded a family, was granted a surname by King Vajiravudh [Rama VI] - several more were granted during the reign of his successor, King Prajadhipok [Rama VII]. As part of the 60th birthday celebrations of His Majesty King Bhumibol Adulyadej, representatives of each branch will gather at the Chitralada Villa of Dusit Palace in a ceremony that has not been performed for many years. They will be received in audience by the King in the Dusidalai Hall and will be grouped strictly according to the seniority of their descent from the previous kings of the Chakri Dynasty. The task of deciding the order of precedence is not an easy one and assistance is given by the chairman of the family association of the Chakri Dynasty, who keeps careful track of the whereabouts of each branch and its members, ensuring that they are informed of the gathering and at the same time checking that no imposters lay claim to an unverified descent. This is rare, though from time to time "pretenders" do emerge and assume the name of some remote line of descent of the Royal Family. The names of the Kings of the Chakri Dynasty are long and complex and take various forms. It is customary that the sovereign's name is longer than that of anyone else in the Kingdom and the full royal name and title, as inscribed on a golden name plate at the time of the coronation, is impractical for daily use. Several different systems for naming the kings have developed over the years. In the reign of King Rama III it was decided that the first two kings of the Chakri Dynasty should be accorded a personal name. Hitherto, people had referred to these two kings as "The King of the Foremost Reign" and "The King of the Middle Reign." King Rama III had two large golden Buddha images made and dedicated them to the first two kings and decreed that they be known as King Buddha Yot Fa and King Buddha Loet La. He himself became King Nang Klao. His successors became King Chom Klao [Mongkut], King Chula Chom Klao [Chulalongkorn], King Mongkut Klao (Vajiravudh) and King Pok Klao [Prajadhipok]. Abroad and to foreigners living within the country these kings were known by other names - the personal name they had before their accession - hence King Mongkut, King Chulalongkorn, King Vajiravudh and King Prajadhipok, and this custom was continued during the two subsequent reigns with King Ananda Mahidol and King Bhumibol Adulyadej. One of the fascinations of the Thai system of royal rank and title is the subtlety with which the title of a member of the Royal House reveals an exact degree of rank. Apart from the three distinct princely ranks mentioned earlier there are other features of royal titles, which further define the holder's true position in the royal hierarchy. In the titles of all princes and princesses of Phra Ong Chao and Chao Fa rank are to be found certain words, which also indicate their relationship to the reigning King. These form part of the preamble to the title and in the case of the closest royal relatives indicate the exact relationship. More distant relatives have a word indicating to which group of princes and princesses they belong. Thus the son of the reigning king will be Somdetch Phra Chao Lukya Ther Chao Fa, the daughter Somdetch Phra Chao Luk Ther Chao Fa, the elder brother Somdetch Phra Chao Piya Ther Chao Fa, the younger brother Somdetch Phra Chao Nongya Ther Chao Fa, and so on. These relationship terms change from reign to reign, with the children of one king becoming, perhaps the elder and younger brothers and sisters of the next king. The system applies equally to deceased members of the Royal Family and the late younger brother of a reigning king will become the late uncle of his successor and his title will be altered accordingly. There is thus a gradual and evolving pattern of change within the system of royal titles. Another feature of the precise definition of rank can be found among the regalia of the most senior members of the Royal Family. When they receive their titles they are presented with a set of regalia, which, should their title be high enough, will include a multi-tiered royal umbrellas, or parasol. These royal umbrellas are of different levels, usually of five, seven or nine tiers. Only a crowned king possesses a nine-tiered umbrella [prior to his coronation he is entitled to one of seven tiers]. The holders of seven tier umbrellas form a special group within the Royal Family, those whose titles contain the words "Somdetch Phra Baromma" and at the present time these include only four people, Her Majesty the Queen, H.R.H. the Crown Prince, H.R.H. the Princess Mother and princesses of Cho Fa rank are entitled to royal umbrellas of five tiers. These royal umbrellas reveal the rank of the holder and as such can form part of their insignia or coats-of-arms and at their cremations are to be found suspended above the crematorium, or above their urns at their lyings-in-state. As the Thai system of rank is so very much more complex than those systems to be found in European countries it is often difficult to ascribe adequate titles in English and the other European languages. A system has evolved gradually, beginning as early as the reign of King Mongkut. He and his successors took particular care in choosing the correct English words to be used as a translation for various Thai royal titles, and in the cases of King Chulalongkorn and King Vajiravudh discussions took place between themselves and members of European royal families on choosing suitable equivalents. However, the European languages cannot convey the degree of subtlety apparent in the Thai system and anomalies occur. Although the Queen is Her Majesty, the Princess Mother, according to European custom is only Her Royal Highness, a rank equal to those of certain princes and princesses. In Europe the mother of a reigning king whose father has never been king cannot be a queen mother, as she was herself never a queen consort and is therefore known as the princess mother. That the present Princess Mother of Thailand was raised to the rank of Somdetch Phra Baromma with the right to seven levels of royal umbrellas during the reign of her son cannot be adequately conveyed in the English rendering of her title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penelope Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 http://www.soravij.com/titles.html <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Follow this link for a good chart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuchok Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Not contradicting you that "na Ayudhaya" isn't a title, but that seems a bit illegal to me on different grounds. As I understand it, Thai law requires (when changing your family name) that you pick a name which does not already belong to another family. While "na Ayudhaya" isn't a surname, it seems to be a claim that you belong to that family, which she doesn't. But since it was only her family that complained, I assume I'm wrong Okay here's a question: have the descendents of King Taksin got a dynastic suffix? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I also seem to remember getting the idea that 'na Ayudhaya' is what you can use when the royal generations have passed, and that it signifies past royal connections... Not 100% sure.... Heng, have you ever heard of the '4 syllable' minimum for Chinese taking new Thai names? That is also something I heard long ago, and it seems many Thai Chinese names are at least 4 syllables... Not sure about a rule for that, though. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This story was relayed to me by a Thai lady in NZ. i can't remember what King she was talking about, but she told me that one of the Kings many, many years ago told all Chinese immigrants that if they were to stay in Thailand legally, then they must adopt Thai names. The lady in question was University educated in the USA...Still, don't know how true this is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penelope Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Not contradicting you that "na Ayudhaya" isn't a title, but that seems a bit illegal to me on different grounds. As I understand it, Thai law requires (when changing your family name) that you pick a name which does not already belong to another family. While "na Ayudhaya" isn't a surname, it seems to be a claim that you belong to that family, which she doesn't. But since it was only her family that complained, I assume I'm wrong Okay here's a question: have the descendents of King Taksin got a dynastic suffix? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I also seem to remember getting the idea that 'na Ayudhaya' is what you can use when the royal generations have passed, and that it signifies past royal connections... Not 100% sure.... Heng, have you ever heard of the '4 syllable' minimum for Chinese taking new Thai names? That is also something I heard long ago, and it seems many Thai Chinese names are at least 4 syllables... Not sure about a rule for that, though. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This story was relayed to me by a Thai lady in NZ. i can't remember what King she was talking about, but she told me that one of the Kings many, many years ago told all Chinese immigrants that if they were to stay in Thailand legally, then they must adopt Thai names. The lady in question was University educated in the USA...Still, don't know how true this is. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Rama V was responsible for many social and cultural reforms.One I am extremely grateful for being the adoption of the "fork" My wife did her masters in Sydney, and I know more about her surname suffix and lineage than she does ... haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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