Sabai Properties / Kitt & Murray

[Lindsay]

My husband and I are in the process of buying an apartment at Sabai Thani (new development on the headland between Big Buddha and Fisherman's Village). We thought we had done everything properly and engaged our own lawyers, Kitt & Murray, to double-check the land title and our purchase agreement with the developers Sabai Properties. Progress on site has ground to a halt since last year and the developers have now admitted that there is no way they will meet the agreed completion date of June 2006, but are unwilling to give any idea as to when the apartment might be ready. OK, I thought, time to get back to the lawyers to discuss the penalty clauses in the purchase agreement for failure to meet the completion deadline. But to my horror I have discovered that Kitt & Murray no longer exist! The people we thought were representing our interests in Thailand have just disappeared, without even the professional courtesy of letting us know that they have discontinued operation.

Does anyone have any inside track on either Sabai Properties or Kitt & Murray? I would love to hear from other Sabai Thani purchasers who may be in the same situation. And has anyone driven past the site recently who could perhaps tell me if there is any work at all in progress? It is so frustrating to be here in Europe with no communication whatsoever from the developers, and no lawyer to turn to either.

Many thanks in advance.

[highdiver]

Most developers on Samui realy on sales to generate the cash flow to construct the project.

if the sales slow down they get in to a cash flow problem and they dont have the capital to continue the project untill they generate more sales.

I pass the site on my way to work every day and it seems that there is some staff working but I can not tell you what work exactly they are doing. It seems that they are doing something.

There is no way for you to control the situation from Europe.

get your self back to Samui and see for yourself what is going on.

Dont belive any promises unless you see them for your self.

the best thing to do is find a new lawyer and let him take care of your intrests.

[LaoPo]

You might want to contact these people; maybe they know more?

http://www.martellothailand.com/item.php3?no=16

LaoPo

[The Vulcan]

Here's a link to the K&M website including a contact address that you may like to try

http://www.kittmurray.com/Index.htm

[Lindsay]

Thank you to everyone for your replies. I have tried contacting the Kitt & Murray email address but have received no reply as yet - it seems so unprofessional to just abandon their clients like that. And yes, Martello are the real estate agents we dealt with originally, but they are even less communicative than the developers themselves! I will follow your advice and get a new lawyer on the case until we are able to get over to Samui ourselves. I am slightly comforted to hear that the site is still showing some signs of life at least, so thank you for that!

[womble]

I believe there are some very big problems with sabai thani, the problem relates to the land and so I have heard it was obtained or upgraded illegally which now means it isn't freehold but leasehold. I cannot confirm this 100%, it's just something I heard, I suggest you get yourself a good lawyer.

Also Martello is the same people.

Edited May 17, 2006 by womble

[real estate expert]

I believe there are some very big problems with sabai thani, the problem relates to the land and so I have heard it was obtained or upgraded illegally which now means it isn't freehold but leasehold. I cannot confirm this 100%, it's just something I heard, I suggest you get yourself a good lawyer.

Also Martello is the same people.

[real estate expert]

As a real estate expert operating in Samui i have to say that Mr Womble is both ill informed and has stated incorrect assumptions. Sabai Thani is one of the premier developments on Samui, the land title is absolutely not in question and was never "upgraded illegally". This is absolute nonsense. I suggest that anybody wishing to know the real facts contact either the company or the real estate advisors via the known websites www.sabaithani.com.

[womble]

in which case I apologise, its just something I heard, are the two companys also not linked then. Am I worng on both counts?

[LaoPo]

If you say so, as a newcomer, that would be fantastic news for the Lady OP Lindsay.

I suppose that you (or your partners or sabaithani.com) have informed 'Lindsay, the OP' accordingly and told her that she has nothing to fear....and that her worries are not based on facts.

To me it remains strange though that she writes:

"Progress on site has ground to a halt since last year and the developers have now admitted that there is no way they will meet the agreed completion date of June 2006, but are unwilling to give any idea as to when the apartment might be ready"

Are you able and willing to confirm the above?...moreover since 'June2006' is a few weeks away.

I can assure you that a lot of expats/Samuians/prospect buyers would be most interested in your comments.

LaoPo

[Khun Jean]

Is this an attempt at damage control?

This Mai Sabai project has too many rumours. Where there is smoke there usually is fire.

If in doubt about the landpapers, i would suggest obtaining a copy from the landoffice. It will take away the doubts.

Upgrading illegally is almost a national sport, so don't be confinced until you researched it thoroughly. Every piece of land has a history that can be tracked back. If land is divided it is registered. Time to find out.

If new sales are difficult because their is so many choice at the moment it is possible the development comes to a halt. The money will dry up and if money is borrowed, it can be even worse as probably the land is used as collateral.

I would be very worried and would be there on the next plane to sort it out.

[real estate expert]

in which case I apologise, its just something I heard, are the two companys also not linked then. Am I worng on both counts?

[real estate expert]

Firstly, yes you are wrong on both accounts. Secondly, i have been informed that the buyers are fully aware of the facts and now understand that the delays have been caused by a change in the planning laws with regards to the introduction of pitched roofs construction throughout the whole of Samui. Also you should be aware that all independent lawyers have confirmed that titles are correct and indeed several properties have already legally transferred at the land department. A fact that we have independtly confirmed today

[Lindsay]

UPDATE: I have today received a progress report from the agents and some recent photographs, which have done much to reassure me that building work has now resumed on our apartment, and we are very satisfied with what we can see. Apparently work had to be suspended due to a planning problem with the roof design, which has since been resolved, and we are hoping for completion this year or early 2007. I'm sure that most purchasers, like me, would rather developers were upfront about any problems encountered; being left out of the loop, especially when you are thousands of miles away from the site, just leads you to imagine the worst.

Regarding the land title, I have been assured that everything is in order. Obviously we instructed our lawyers to carry out due diligence before signing the contract back in early 2005, and were confident at the time that the title was secure; but now that Kitt & Murray no longer exist, we may need to think about starting again from scratch with a new lawyer.

Thank you to everyone for your help and advice.

[LaoPo]

Good news Lindsay!

Amazing what just 1 post on Thaivisa can do ...in just one day a lot of your worries are solved; nevertheless it seems odd that the 'design of the roofs' was the problem.

One would think that these were designed/drawed when presented to the authorities before they started selling and building...

LaoPo

[skipdivils]

They probably were designed and most likely submitted. The laws re. pitched roofs changed during their initial construction stages to my knowledge. So this would involve lots of cost and extra time for the developer. Now, that said, the point i would be most interested in is whether or not the people with the penthouses still get their rooftop decks, or has the new Samui law changed that. Cause that would be a shame. And hey, from what I know, the people that run Sabai Thani are good people and definately on the level.

[Colin Murray]

My husband and I are in the process of buying an apartment at Sabai Thani (new development on the headland between Big Buddha and Fisherman's Village). We thought we had done everything properly and engaged our own lawyers, Kitt & Murray, to double-check the land title and our purchase agreement with the developers Sabai Properties. Progress on site has ground to a halt since last year and the developers have now admitted that there is no way they will meet the agreed completion date of June 2006, but are unwilling to give any idea as to when the apartment might be ready. OK, I thought, time to get back to the lawyers to discuss the penalty clauses in the purchase agreement for failure to meet the completion deadline. But to my horror I have discovered that Kitt & Murray no longer exist! The people we thought were representing our interests in Thailand have just disappeared, without even the professional courtesy of letting us know that they have discontinued operation.

Does anyone have any inside track on either Sabai Properties or Kitt & Murray? I would love to hear from other Sabai Thani purchasers who may be in the same situation. And has anyone driven past the site recently who could perhaps tell me if there is any work at all in progress? It is so frustrating to be here in Europe with no communication whatsoever from the developers, and no lawyer to turn to either.

Many thanks in advance.

At the time that Kitt & Murray decided to cease operations in Samui. we contacted all of the clients that we had information on and, to our knowledge, had instructed us to keep them informed of what we were doing and to make alternate arrangements for all our clients. If you were not contacted, we had no information about your matter to hand and if this is the case I apologise and will endeavour to resolve this matter as soon as possible.

When we decided to leave Thailand, we attempted to have someone take over the business as a going concern. This discussion proved fruitless and we abandoned the idea after a lot of effort. This however does not solve your problem. We will contact Jerrold Kippen, who was our Samui office manager and who is now managing the Samui office for McEvily & Collins to see what happened here and if he can take over your matter on behalf of his new firm.

I have also sent you a PM, but please free to contact me directly on colin(at)kittmurray.com

[Khun Jean]

2 new members in the last day. In my opinion a little too late to control this damage. All buyers are known, not only with the lawyers so sending them information and current news is not that difficult. Losing customer information especially if they paid money (receipts/contracts) is unacceptable.

Are you really saying these peoples contracts and receipts are missing?

Unfortunately no such thing as accountability exists in Thailand, at least not on a working scale.

Writing excuses on a public forum is too late and really shows a lack of professionalism. Shame on those responsible.

I find the whole storey about rooftops unbelievable. Regulations not change that quick. Probably more a mistake when designing and approving the plans. A mistake the clients now have to endure. Any other country and there would be a lawsuit and a lot of refunds or fines.

Even the pictures that were send i would not believe 100%. Any information send this late is questionale. Maybe i am the paranoid type, but better be 100% sure, especially when not on the site. Unfortunately i am not in the neighbourhood otherwise i would make some pictures myself. Maybe another member can make some pictures and make sure progress is really made.

Edited May 18, 2006 by Khun Jean

[game4shame]

As a real estate expert operating in Samui i have to say that Mr Womble is both ill informed and has stated incorrect assumptions. Sabai Thani is one of the premier developments on Samui, the land title is absolutely not in question and was never "upgraded illegally". This is absolute nonsense. I suggest that anybody wishing to know the real facts contact either the company or the real estate advisors via the known websites www.sabaithani.com.

so, I take it sabaithani is your company?

[mosquitoman]

As a real estate expert operating in Samui i have to say that Mr Womble is both ill informed and has stated incorrect assumptions. Sabai Thani is one of the premier developments on Samui, the land title is absolutely not in question and was never "upgraded illegally". This is absolute nonsense. I suggest that anybody wishing to know the real facts contact either the company or the real estate advisors via the known websites www.sabaithani.com.

so, I take it sabaithani is your company?

Game4Shame exactly my thoughts too,

As a real estae expert, I also think Mr Womble is very well informed and is working on correct assumptions

Edited May 18, 2006 by mosquitoman

[hecky]

Martello and Sabai are the same company. Martello are buliding shopping compex on right hand side of the road coming away from tesco going towards bohput at the botom of the hill. Lawrence Faye is the MD and i would think a decent chap to deal with, i have known him for over 6 years and always found him straight forward but very busy so maybe that is the reason for lack of communication.

Shame about the land being sold nesting eagles were evicted to make way for it, still TIT money rules

[LaoPo]

Martello and Sabai are the same company. Martello are buliding shopping compex on right hand side of the road coming away from tesco going towards bohput at the botom of the hill. Lawrence Faye is the MD and i would think a decent chap to deal with, i have known him for over 6 years and always found him straight forward but very busy so maybe that is the reason for lack of communication.

Shame about the land being sold nesting eagles were evicted to make way for it, still TIT money rules

Who is Who?

http://www.martellothailand.com/organization.php3?m=0&n=10

About us - who are we?

http://www.martellothailand.com/who.php3

they seem to have a lot of 'hubs'...

""Martello now operates on several continents and has a number of hub offices around the world:

- European Hub - Rotterdam

- Local Offices - London

- North and South America Hub - Houston, Texas

- Local offices - Phoenix

- Asia Pacific Hub - Bangkok

- Local Offices - Singapore

""

and if you're looking for a job:

http://www.martellothailand.com/employment.php3?m=0&n=10

""2. Customer Sales Officers

We have vacancies for customer sales officers in a variety of locations:

* Bangkok

* Chiang Mai

* Jomtien

* Phuket

""

They even have a bilingual, bi-monthly magazine... anyone know this magazine?

http://www.martellothailand.com/news.php3?no=17

""If you are looking for something special or wish to sell your own assets please give us a call on + 66 2 677 3000 ""

Website for Sabai Properties, Bophut:

http://www.sabaiproperties.com/

Sabai Properties is now using the legal services/or are connected to:

http://www.pensitandlaws.com/branches.html

on Samui/Lamai:

3rd Floor, IT Complex Samui

142/17 Moo 4, Maret Koh Samui

Suratthani 84310 Thailand

Tel: +66-077-458121-3

Fax: +66-077-458124

E-mail: [email protected]

Furthermore there is:

www.sabaithani.com/

Maybe someone can open the window?...it's a bit smelly in here..... since we have now a few newcomers since the OP posted her concerns about this project.

It's about time someone clear the sky, without hiding behind 'profile-names'.

LaoPo

Edited May 18, 2006 by LaoPo

[LaoPo]

Something went wrong during writing the above message:

Please read the latter part of my message above, as follows:

Furthermore there is:

www.sabaithani.com/ (see post #8) which doesn't work and is re-directed to sabaiproperties.com

Maybe someone can open the window?...it's a bit smelly in here..... since we have now a few newcomers since the OP posted her concerns about this project.

It's about time someone of the above mentioned companies clear the sky, without hiding behind 'profile-names'.

PS: I didn't find anywhere a Mr Lawrence Faye, but like the above poster said: maybe he's busy...

LaoPo

[elGrande]

My husband and I are in the process of buying an apartment at Sabai Thani (new development on the headland between Big Buddha and Fisherman's Village). We thought we had done everything properly and engaged our own lawyers, Kitt & Murray, to double-check the land title and our purchase agreement with the developers Sabai Properties. Progress on site has ground to a halt since last year and the developers have now admitted that there is no way they will meet the agreed completion date of June 2006, but are unwilling to give any idea as to when the apartment might be ready. OK, I thought, time to get back to the lawyers to discuss the penalty clauses in the purchase agreement for failure to meet the completion deadline. But to my horror I have discovered that Kitt & Murray no longer exist! The people we thought were representing our interests in Thailand have just disappeared, without even the professional courtesy of letting us know that they have discontinued operation.

Does anyone have any inside track on either Sabai Properties or Kitt & Murray? I would love to hear from other Sabai Thani purchasers who may be in the same situation. And has anyone driven past the site recently who could perhaps tell me if there is any work at all in progress? It is so frustrating to be here in Europe with no communication whatsoever from the developers, and no lawyer to turn to either.

Many thanks in advance.

Buying is not a good idea in Thailand.

If they are farangs you may be able to sue in your or their home country and get a (default) judgement, especially if you transfered money from overseas.

[benson]

mr womble is correct with the rumours he heard there is a problem with the land rights but nothing a few baht in the right pocket would,nt solve[maybe]all the talk about roofs is total boll---s.if i was you i think the first plane to samui would be a good idea and have a chat with mr faye but be sure to book an appointment first as he is very busy?

[Malice in Wonderland]

"I find the whole storey about rooftops unbelievable. Regulations not change that quick. Probably more a mistake when designing and approving the plans. A mistake the clients now have to endure. Any other country and there would be a lawsuit and a lot of refunds or fines."

Khun Jean, You've left the island but you just can't help sticking your oar in can you ??? Let me tell you the regulation regarding roofing is indeed in place as it had an effect on seven properties i am having built at the moment.When you don't know what you're talking about it's best to keep quiet.

As for the OP's problem, I know Mr Fay and I'm confident his associates will resolve this matter efficiently....

Edited May 19, 2006 by Malice in Wonderland

[highdiver]

"I find the whole storey about rooftops unbelievable. Regulations not change that quick. Probably more a mistake when designing and approving the plans. A mistake the clients now have to endure. Any other country and there would be a lawsuit and a lot of refunds or fines."

Khun Jean, You've left the island but you just can't help sticking your oar in can you ??? Let me tell you the regulation regarding roofing is indeed in place as it had an effect on seven properties i am having built at the moment.When you don't know what you're talking about it's best to keep quiet.

As for the OP's problem, I know Mr Fay and I'm confident his associates will resolve this matter efficiently....

[/color]

The construction of buildings in Koh Samui Island is mainly subject to the Ministerial Regulation No. 22 (B.E. 2532) (1989), issued by virtue of the Building Construction Control Act 1979 (B.E. 2522).

The regulation about roof tops have not changed since the last goverment approves the Samui green law in August 2003.

the law stipulates:

Style of roof

In the area of Mae Nam Sub-district, Bor Phud Sub-district, Maret Sub-district, Nah Muang Sub-district, Taling Ngam Sub-district, Lipa Noi Sub-district, and Angthong Sub-district of Suratthani Province, buildings must have the following configurations:

Roof

Building having the sloping roof such as the Thai architecture style, the roof with the tropical country architecture style, or the roof with the original Samui architecture style, provided that the sloping roof area does not cover less than 80% of the whole area of the building.

Its not roof tops that is the problem and any excuse about "changes" is the law id BULL.....

[Khun Jean]

"I find the whole storey about rooftops unbelievable. Regulations not change that quick. Probably more a mistake when designing and approving the plans. A mistake the clients now have to endure. Any other country and there would be a lawsuit and a lot of refunds or fines."

Khun Jean, You've left the island but you just can't help sticking your oar in can you ??? Let me tell you the regulation regarding roofing is indeed in place as it had an effect on seven properties i am having built at the moment.When you don't know what you're talking about it's best to keep quiet.

As for the OP's problem, I know Mr Fay and I'm confident his associates will resolve this matter efficiently....

I suggest you keep telling stories like this, the more talk the more you are digging your own grave.

Any law is public, so i suggest to dig up those documents and prove it. An easy task as you were effected yourself. I guess making a scan and posting it is a piece of cake. It will take away doubts. That is what is important. I am not believing someones word on this. Prove is necessary.

BTW Did i read right and you are building seven properties that were approved before and now have to be modified to be in accordance with the new regulations?

It is a great story, it suggests the plans were not approved before building started. Changes in regulations do not apply for already approved building plans.

Would you believe a story like that when it happens to you when you are far away, or would you have the feeling that it was some story to win some time.

You are talking about peoples money and dreams here, it should not be taken lightly.

Maybe i know a little bit more than you suspect. But then again that is why i left.

Another real estate/broker/developer in damage control mode. I counted 3 people now in a few days, 2 of them signed up after the post got public. My feeling is someone was informed and 'damage control' started. Again highly suspicious. Developers/brokers/agents should be open to their clients and inform them of the problems they encounter not wait until clients are unable to get information and use a public forum like this as a last resort.

The best damage control now is to get those document that proves what you are saying, and please drive by this building site and make some pictures so everybody can see how progress is going. I think that is the only way to prove it. If those documents and pictures prove everything is ok, then the problem of the OP is solved, until now nothing but words.

Edited May 19, 2006 by Khun Jean

[Griz]

My name is Lawrence Fay, I am the principle owner of Sabai Properties and its flagship development Sabai Thani. It was suggested to me by a friend that I read this forum and he kindly allowed me to use his Login to post this reply.

I am amazed at some of the content and comments by people who have absolutely no idea what is going on in Samui and more importantly no direct knowledge or contact with Sabai Thani or its developer (thanks go to those people who know me and posted their positive comments).

I can confirm this is the first posting by anyone directly connected to Sabai Properties, the developer behind Sabai Thani, so be assured there is no question of anybody here hiding behind “profile names” as the self proclaimed expert on everything, LaoPo, would have us believe.

I invite him/her or anyone else to contact Sabai offices and make an appointment to be shown around the site. For those of you who can not force yourselves to leave your PC may I tell you the facts as I know them to be: In this construction boom we suffer, like all developers, in maintaining an optimum workforce. That said, work is progressing well on five new villas (four already completed) with particular emphasis on the two apartment blocks. I admit we have been unable to meet our predicted (not contractual) completion date for the first apartment block. There have been planning issues with regard to the roof designs, these have been resolved and anyone passing from the Bophut side should be able to see the work in progress from the road.

In addition to our own direct labour, our site is currently populated by sub-contractors installing air-conditioning, electrical first fixing, integrated alarms, and bespoke joinery.

With regard to the land, Sabai Thani plots are all held by separate landholding companies with supporting contract land papers and ‘Tabien Baans’ which are transferred on completion and handover of the property.

Sabai Properties uses two reputable legal firms on the Island, Pensit and Laws (Lamai), and Roberts and Gerrard (Maenam).

Martello Realty are the contracted sole agent managing the sale of Sabai Thani properties. As a result of the excellent service they have provided I have extended this contract to providing support services in the Destination Shopping Mall project. To further clarify Martello Holdings and Sabai Properties are definitively separate companies.

I doubt this will stop the gossip mongers and those with a chip on their shoulder or an axe to grind. However, once again, I extend an invitation to visit the site and to see for yourselves.

Kind regards to all

Lawrence Fay

CEO, Sabai Properties

[LaoPo]

My name is Lawrence Fay, I am the principle owner of Sabai Properties and its flagship development Sabai Thani....

....so be assured there is no question of anybody here hiding behind “profile names” as the self proclaimed expert on everything, LaoPo, would have us believe.

...Sabai Properties uses two reputable legal firms on the Island, Pensit and Laws (Lamai), and Roberts and Gerrard (Maenam).

Martello Realty are the contracted sole agent managing the sale of Sabai Thani properties.

Kind regards to all

Lawrence Fay

CEO, Sabai Properties

Thank you Mr. Lawrence Fay, for clearing the sky after I wrote this: "It's about time someone of the above mentioned companies clear the sky, without hiding behind 'profile-names' "

Well, it helped, didn't it?

I don't think I am a 'self proclaimed expert on everything'...too much honour, thank you; If you read my posts #3, 10, 15 and 20/21 you will see I was merely concerned about Lindsay's original post/worries and tried to help.

Since a 'friend' of you wrote that Sabai and Martello where the same company I simply visited their-and your website and posted excerpts from those sites.

The good point of everything is that you now know about Thaivisa......

I wish you well.

LaoPo