What If Qualification Clampdown Happens Now?

[PeaceBlondie]

At the risk of duplicating threads, the following news was just posted on the long, long thread posted on News Clippings, and someone suggested we discuss it on the Teaching in Thailand forum:

From this evening's news - according to education chief Khunying Kasama Varawarn na Ayutthaya, permanent secretary of education there is to be an immediate clampdown on the 7,000 foreign English teachers working at Bi-lingual/International schools in Bangkok.

According to Khunying Kasama - she has been informed that many of the 7,000 foreign teachers are working either degreeless or holding fake degrees.

Khunying Kasama has declared 'immediate verification' of every foreign teacher's qualifications teaching at privately owned schools.

"Any teacher found to be violating this regualtion is to be arrested, deported and blacklisted"

Source: Local Thai Evening News

If this is verfied as the lady's statment (and you can't be more influential than her job title, her Khunying title, and her na Ayutthaya title), and she goes through even halfway with it, what will be the effect?

[mbkudu]

If this is verfied as the lady's statment (and you can't be more influential than her job title, her Khunying title, and her na Ayutthaya title), and she goes through even halfway with it, what will be the effect?

I will venture to say that nothing will happen. I think you know quite well that many of these teachers already work for low pay and if they kick them out, they'll have to find other teachers and most likely pay more for them. It is interesting that in the above piece Khunying says nothing about punishing the schools; just arresting, deporting and blacklisting the foreign teachers. Just work without a WP and then you have nothing to worry about .

[Ijustwannateach]

I think that you have to read the fine print closely. The 7000 teachers mentioned were those who were known to be working at *private* schools. That means a. they must have had work permits (otherwise, how could they be legally working? and b. this number does not include the not inconsiderable number of teachers working at PUBLIC schools.

And I've already mentioned on the "news" thread that this doesn't even touch the largest population of foreign teachers of all: those without work permits who are working illegally (probably 60-70% of them but who knows).

As far as I can tell, even if these documents are really being reviewed (and their quick results speak of a whitewash), it won't affect most teachers here at all.

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

Agreed, the lady's statement, as reported, isn't clear, and it's only a statement of intent. I doubt the MoE has the available resources to check on qualifications. Or, I doubt they will redirect many of their resources to do this very well. That's probably precisely why they shifted the checking on degrees from the MoE to the schools, last year, and most schools don't know how to check degrees. Actually, her statement doesn't mention work permits. Also, she only referred to bilingual/international schools, not to private language centers or to govt. schools. It seems funny that she'd even cite the international schools, which are the smallest group and the group most likely to have done the best job at vetting their foreign employees. But now we suspect the MoE trusted even the elite circle of schools too much.

Besides, the MoE doesn't check for work permits, right? And they have no power to deport a thousand teachers, right? And for every publicized deportation, how many farang would simply quit?

I know nothing much, but I suspect there's an actual crackdown by the governmental authorities, against farang teachers, somewhere in this mess. Most of the scandal will blow over, but I suspect the govt. will take some actions against some teachers, without helping them get legal. Would it be too much to ask the MoFA, the Immigration Police, the MoLabour, and the MoE to help those farang teachers who deserve to teach in Thailand, and have at least the minimal qualifications reasonably needed to teach English to one group of Thai students or another? In other words, is it too much to ask the govt. to be reasonable?

[Loaded]

"Any teacher found to be violating this regualtion is to be arrested, deported and blacklisted"

A regulation is not a law, so what law are they going to use to arrest them?

They've chosen to crack down on International Schools because of the Jon Carr geezer.

They will present one or two 'illegals' to the press, Thai Rath will print a picture on their front page with an accompanying story of farang misbehaviour, the khunying will get a slap on the back, then back to business.

My missus has told me that many Thai discussion boards are talking about farang teachers at the moment. Most comments refer to their behaviour: drunkeness and whoring. This behaviour is rarely discussed by farang teacher discussion boards, but I feel it should be. I know one teacher in Chiang Mai who is a heroin addict and has a LoiKrok prostitute girlfriend. He's a ****deleted by moderator to avoid identifying a particular teacher****. I feel any crackdown should include a crackdown on behaviour as well as qualifications. Arrest the drunks and druggies - easy to test and deport the ones who parade into school with a hoe.

Edited August 22, 2006 by PeaceBlondie

[Thaiboxer]

If the Ministeries of Labor and Education decide to go ahead with this, it may have the effect of schools raising their salaries if they're serious about attracting qualified teachers. Many schools ask for all sorts of qualifications but pay substandard salaries/benefits.

Edited August 22, 2006 by Thaiboxer

[Ijustwannateach]

If there is any real crackdown, the effect on the (increasingly smaller) sector that must actually hire semi-real teachers will definitely be a raise in conditions on offer, while there will be even more of the "unofficial" teachers being exploited around. No crackdown is mentioned about them because they mean too much money for Thai school directors and money laundering operations (which is what many language schools ultimately are for their owners). Unfortunately we will all be tarred with the same brush as the worst group of people here.

"Steven"

[taxexile]

My missus has told me that many Thai discussion boards are talking about farang teachers at the moment. Most comments refer to their behaviour: drunkeness and whoring.

can you give a link to those boards and threads please.

[Loaded]

My missus has told me that many Thai discussion boards are talking about farang teachers at the moment. Most comments refer to their behaviour: drunkeness and whoring.

can you give a link to those boards and threads please.

Try this one:

http://www.manager.co.th

[mijan24]

If there is any real crackdown, the effect on the (increasingly smaller) sector that must actually hire semi-real teachers will definitely be a raise in conditions on offer, while there will be even more of the "unofficial" teachers being exploited around. No crackdown is mentioned about them because they mean too much money for Thai school directors and money laundering operations (which is what many language schools ultimately are for their owners). Unfortunately we will all be tarred with the same brush as the worst group of people here.

"Steven"

Yes, so true - it will not only apply to those in the teaching profession/game by the way!! Unfortunately many Thais will tar (hopefully not feather) all farangs with the same "Karr" brush.

[Sunbelt Asia]

If there is any real crackdown, the effect on the (increasingly smaller) sector that must actually hire semi-real teachers will definitely be a raise in conditions on offer, while there will be even more of the "unofficial" teachers being exploited around. No crackdown is mentioned about them because they mean too much money for Thai school directors and money laundering operations (which is what many language schools ultimately are for their owners). Unfortunately we will all be tarred with the same brush as the worst group of people here.

"Steven"

Yes, so true - it will not only apply to those in the teaching profession/game by the way!! Unfortunately many Thais will tar (hopefully not feather) all farangs with the same "Karr" brush.

We are starting to see passports with the stamp and handwriting, the foreigner was working without a work permit

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...st&p=861387

[Ijustwannateach]

^That is also somewhat disturbing. Are they deciding this on their own, or has it been proven by some legal process that such people were working? If I'm not mistaken, there can be very serious penalties- so if they were proven to have been working without a permit, why weren't they penalised?

Sounds to me like they are getting blacklisted on the passport comments without any real proof or judicial review.

"Steven"

[Loaded]

Sunbelt in their report say "they were aware" of some teachers being taken to immigration after a raid. They don't mention the schools or the area. They then go on to say that it's a wake up call for teachers to get legal (ie wp).

One of Sunbelt's products is selling wps.

[kenkannif]

Nowt will happen although they'll say it will as per normal.

LoL Imm don't want to raid schools and when they do (generally as they have to follow up on reports, which are generally from a bitter ex-employee) a small amount of money or a gift changes hands.

Nothing will change and if it does it will be for the worst IMO! Bigger classes, more hours....same money!

Edited August 23, 2006 by kenkannif

[lawman3966]

I've seen concerns expressed on this board about qualifications and exceeding the bounds of work permits. In one thread, someone suggested a German teacher could face prison for conducting lessons at his home.

I'm curious how this affects private lessons, if at all. Can a teacher actually face _criminal_ charges for taking on private students?

[george]

I've seen concerns expressed on this board about qualifications and exceeding the bounds of work permits. In one thread, someone suggested a German teacher could face prison for conducting lessons at his home.

I'm curious how this affects private lessons, if at all. Can a teacher actually face _criminal_ charges for taking on private students?

Criminal charges? Call it what you want. A small fine, a few days in the Immigration detention centre and deportation. This is Thailand.

[Ijustwannateach]

I've met literally hundreds of teachers in Thailand. Of all of them, even the most super-specially qualified and gold-star-in-the-belly-buttoned, I think I only met 2 who actually started working their first day at a Thai school with full legal paperwork.

As far as private work, I've rarely met a teacher who didn't do some, and equally few actually try to get the legal stamps and pay the tax required to make it kosher (which is theoretically possible). In theory, however, that's the law. Remember that even volunteer work requires a work permit. Practically speaking, unless you're in the wrong place at the wrong time or really make the wrong people angry, it's hard to run afoul of this particular law.

As George says, TIT.

"Steven"

[withnail]

I think your chances of being done for private work would also be seriously reduced if you were at least legally staying in Thailand on a business visa with a WP (albeit at a different location). However, you could ask why someone might get raided at a private lesson in their own home. A one off inspection or had they done something to p1ss someone off?

[mijan24]

Sunbelt in their report say "they were aware" of some teachers being taken to immigration after a raid. They don't mention the schools or the area. They then go on to say that it's a wake up call for teachers to get legal (ie wp).

One of Sunbelt's products is selling wps.

"Loaded" I believe "Sunbelt" actually provide a service " which processes the necessary paperwork for obtaining a WP - I am fairly sure they can/do not sell the actual WP as your statement indicates

Edited August 28, 2006 by mijan24

[mbkudu]

Sunbelt in their report say "they were aware" of some teachers being taken to immigration after a raid. They don't mention the schools or the area. They then go on to say that it's a wake up call for teachers to get legal (ie wp).

One of Sunbelt's products is selling wps.

"Loaded" I believe "Sunbelt" actually provide a service " which processes the necessary paperwork for obtaining a WP - I am fairly sure they can/do not sell the actual WP as your statement indicates

Splitting hairs don't you think?

[mijan24]

Sunbelt in their report say "they were aware" of some teachers being taken to immigration after a raid. They don't mention the schools or the area. They then go on to say that it's a wake up call for teachers to get legal (ie wp).

One of Sunbelt's products is selling wps.

"Loaded" I believe "Sunbelt" actually provide a service " which processes the necessary paperwork for obtaining a WP - I am fairly sure they can/do not sell the actual WP as your statement indicates

Splitting hairs don't you think?

mbkudu you are probably correct, I should have explained the reason behind my comment was not to have a go at "loaded" but more to ensure any newcomers understood there is a subtle difference-between selling a WP and providing the mechanism to obtain a WP. Thanks for the heads up-"loaded don't take offence my intentions were good just let myself down a little in conveying the info!

[mbkudu]

Sunbelt in their report say "they were aware" of some teachers being taken to immigration after a raid. They don't mention the schools or the area. They then go on to say that it's a wake up call for teachers to get legal (ie wp).

One of Sunbelt's products is selling wps.

"Loaded" I believe "Sunbelt" actually provide a service " which processes the necessary paperwork for obtaining a WP - I am fairly sure they can/do not sell the actual WP as your statement indicates

Splitting hairs don't you think?

mbkudu you are probably correct, I should have explained the reason behind my comment was not to have a go at "loaded" but more to ensure any newcomers understood there is a subtle difference-between selling a WP and providing the mechanism to obtain a WP. Thanks for the heads up-"loaded don't take offence my intentions were good just let myself down a little in conveying the info!

I'm sure no offense was taken by anyone. Either way, if the crackdown is for real, then a company like S.B. stands to make quite a haul in the near future from all the schools rushing to get their illegal teachers legal. Now the big question is: Does Thailand really want this to happen? They say they do, but I bet they don't.

[Ijustwannateach]

I bet they don't, either. We're a huge and underpaid resource for the country. Japan has to pay over 2-3x per teacher more than Thailand for a teaching population that is (IMHO) only marginally more qualified, marginally less dodgy, and generally less enthusiastic about being there.

The laws regarding work permits are so strict that it's really hard to fake it and still be legal. The only truly (strictly) legal work permits are those which are connected both to the school you work for and the location in which you actually work.

"Steven"

[Loaded]

Sunbelt in their report say "they were aware" of some teachers being taken to immigration after a raid. They don't mention the schools or the area. They then go on to say that it's a wake up call for teachers to get legal (ie wp).

One of Sunbelt's products is selling wps.

"Loaded" I believe "Sunbelt" actually provide a service " which processes the necessary paperwork for obtaining a WP - I am fairly sure they can/do not sell the actual WP as your statement indicates

Splitting hairs don't you think?

mbkudu you are probably correct, I should have explained the reason behind my comment was not to have a go at "loaded" but more to ensure any newcomers understood there is a subtle difference-between selling a WP and providing the mechanism to obtain a WP. Thanks for the heads up-"loaded don't take offence my intentions were good just let myself down a little in conveying the info!

No offence taken.

[Ijustwannateach]

I love you guys...

[PeaceBlondie]

I love you guys...

Ladies and gentlemen, please allow me to introduce the Teaching in Thailand forum's new co-moderator, who loves you and just wants to teach.

[Ijustwannateach]

Thanks. Sometimes I think we barely need mods in here! It's all so gosh-darn civil!

[paully]

^ Congrats to the new co-moderator!

[Buki]

Thanks. Sometimes I think we barely need mods in here! It's all so gosh-darn civil!

truthfully speaking, I prefer this forum instead of the "other". There is "less" Filipino bashing here compared to the other one. LOL

[mijan24]

"Steven"

Well done

Mijan24

(said with cap in hand)