My Thai Wife To Spain...

[ardnimand]

Hello,

this is a great forum, im glad I found it today, as I need some help.

I live in Denmark (Schengen member) and 1. october Im getting married with my

Thai girlfriend. She is here in DK on a tourist visum which expire 11. of October.

We would love to move to Spain, where I have rented a house for 1 year.

But now Im so in doubt about what is best to do.

My plan is :

A) We gret married 1. of October in DK

2. of october I move my address to Spain from DK

C) 5. of october I seek spouse VISA/permanent stay for her in Spain.

Is this an realistic plan at all???

I mean, maybe Spain has a law saying one should have lived x years there, before he/she

can get a spouse in from Thailand? But then on the other hand Spain and DK is in the "Schengen family" so the laws should be the same, or???

Please help with any advice, coments or other alternative plans thanks

Ardnimand

[the scouser]

Once married, your wife would be considered to be a dependant of an EU national and she can apply for what the British call a family permit to enable her to live in Spain with you. This permit should be issued free of charge and without undue delay, unless the Spanish embassy has reason to believe that the marriage is one of convenience: even then, it's for them to demonstrate that the relationship is bogus, and not for you to show it's genuine. Your iwfe should be permitted to make such an application at the Spanish embassy in Copenhagen. However, the Spanish have been known to play silly buggers when it comes to issuing family permits.

In order to qualify, your wife would need to demonstrate that:-

1. She is your dependant (marriage certificate)

2. You are an EU national (your Danish passport)

3. You will be exercising a treaty right in Spain (e.g. working, or "retired" with sufficient funds to take care of yourselves).

Cheers,

Scouse.

[vinny]

See Residence visa and, as Scouse suggested, contact the Spanish Embassy in Copenhagen.

Perhaps also helpful:

Right of Union citizens and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States

Directive on the right to reside freely in the EU.

Family Permit To Spain.

[ardnimand]

Scouser and Vinny,

Thank you so much, it is very good news to us

So our plan is now :

Get married in DK, then I move my address to Spain and we seek the

Spanish Embassy in Spain family permit.

Hope it goes as planned, otherwise I post again

Thanks for the quick and competent answers and links,

Ardnimand

See Residence visa and, as Scouse suggested, contact the Spanish Embassy in Copenhagen.

Perhaps also helpful:

Right of Union citizens and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States

Directive on the right to reside freely in the EU.

Family Permit To Spain.

[the scouser]

Hope it goes as planned, otherwise I post again

I hope you post again, even when everything does go to plan. Let us know how you get on.

Scouse.

[Khun Bob]

See Residence visa and, as Scouse suggested, contact the Spanish Embassy in Copenhagen.

Perhaps also helpful:

Right of Union citizens and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States

Directive on the right to reside freely in the EU.

Family Permit To Spain.

A bit off topic here but does this include the UK or just schengen countries ?

[vinny]

For UK, see Uk Immigration - The European Angle., Are you a dual national? and The European dimension.

Edited September 2, 2006 by vinny

[ardnimand]

Sure I will post and update, stay tuned

Ardnimand

Hope it goes as planned, otherwise I post again

I hope you post again, even when everything does go to plan. Let us know how you get on.

Scouse.

[Khun Jean]

This permit should be issued free of charge and without undue delay, unless the Spanish embassy has reason to believe that the marriage is one of convenience: even then, it's for them to demonstrate that the relationship is bogus, and not for you to show it's genuine. Your iwfe should be permitted to make such an application at the Spanish embassy in Copenhagen. However, the Spanish have been known to play silly buggers when it comes to issuing family permits.

Actually it should be ok to just move to Spain right away. No need for a visit to the embassy and wait for that process. As we all know embassies are not the most up to date with information and are rather sluggish. YMMV. She already had a visa to enter the schengen area, so it will not be a problem for her being in Spain.

When you register (bring marriage certificate, rental contract, some proof of income of financial means) in Spain you can do that together with your wife. I think it would be even better to show up together and register together at the same time.

A permit will be givin to her because she is married to an EU citizen (EEA/Family treaties). From the moment you register her tourist visa is not necessary anymore. So you will have to register before it expires.

Edited September 4, 2006 by Khun Jean

[Khun Bob]

For UK, see Uk Immigration - The European Angle., Are you a dual national? and The European dimension.

Thanks for the info Vinny - very interesting - the UKVisas web site is a gold mine i had not heard of before...

[LaoPo]

Hello,

this is a great forum, im glad I found it today, as I need some help.

I live in Denmark (Schengen member) and 1. october Im getting married with my

Thai girlfriend. She is here in DK on a tourist visum which expire 11. of October.

We would love to move to Spain, where I have rented a house for 1 year.

But now Im so in doubt about what is best to do.

My plan is :

A) We gret married 1. of October in DK

2. of october I move my address to Spain from DK

C) 5. of october I seek spouse VISA/permanent stay for her in Spain.

Is this an realistic plan at all???

I mean, maybe Spain has a law saying one should have lived x years there, before he/she

can get a spouse in from Thailand? But then on the other hand Spain and DK is in the "Schengen family" so the laws should be the same, or???

Please help with any advice, coments or other alternative plans thanks

Ardnimand

Wish you good luck with your marriage!

Your situation is a bit complicated.

Your -wife-to-be is on a TOURIST*-visa in Denmark; I am not sure about the rules in Denmark (Schengen-member) but, once married, that doesn't make her automatically qualify for a Danish citizen-membership (or other Schengen-countries) or (semi)-permanent Visa!

Why don't you ask the Danish and/or Spanish Embassy authorities in Kopenhagen?

I know that the rules in Denmark have been 'sharpened' lately and a marriage as such doesn't make it more 'easy' so to speak.

There must be qualified Lawyers, specialized in 'foreign partners' affairs' and if I were you I would ask their opininon before you move to Spain...

*TOURIST-VISA:

this is a Visa which is also valid for other Schengen-member-countries; her Visa expires on October 11th; that means it expires for ALL Schengen countries....!!!

Please don't take this too easy and get info 'on the double' (you don't have too much time...).

My personal opinion?

She has to leave before/on October 11th (Schengen-territory) and apply for new Visa, now as your wife....Sorry for that, but I hope I'm wrong.

Please let us know what's happening!

LaoPo

[Khun Jean]

LaoPo

this is a Visa which is also valid for other Schengen-member-countries; her Visa expires on October 11th; that means it expires for ALL Schengen countries....!!!

You are right about the VISA. It gives you the right to enter the schengen area.

But when he registers in Spain and exercises his EU rights he and his wife will get a residency PERMIT. At that moment your visa is not required anymore.

They HAVE TO apply EU laws but sometimes they are not aware of this fact. Being not aware can give you some trouble as it will take more time, maybe to much time. That is why you have to do it quick. I think the embassy will need more (unnecassary) time than just registering in Spain. You don't need a visa, you need a permit. And you can get that while you are in Spain.

You will need to unregister yourself from Denmark. You can not be registered in two countries. One has to be your main place to stay.

Normally when all parties know the rules (as they should) it is arranged at the moment you register. Don't accept other answers caused by ignorance!!. Sometimes (depends on the country) it is a two step registration. It can be done in 1 or 2 days. First register that you live there, you need the rental contract for that. And the 2nd step is registering at the foreign police station.

You do need to have proof that you are a EU citizens (passport) and proof you are married (certificate). Also proof you have an income or other financial means. They absolutely hate it when someone is living in the country and wants to have welfare.

If it makes you feel more comfortable why not have a short trip to Spain and see if you can get it arranged. If it fails (i doubt it) you can still use the embassy.

I don't have to wish you luck, because it is not depended on luck but rights.

However, I wish you luck with everything in live anyway.

[LaoPo]

LaoPo

this is a Visa which is also valid for other Schengen-member-countries; her Visa expires on October 11th; that means it expires for ALL Schengen countries....!!!

You are right about the VISA. It gives you the right to enter the schengen area.

But when he registers in Spain and exercises his EU rights he and his wife will get a residency PERMIT. At that moment your visa is not required anymore.

They HAVE TO apply EU laws but sometimes they are not aware of this fact. Being not aware can give you some trouble as it will take more time, maybe to much time. That is why you have to do it quick. I think the embassy will need more (unnecassary) time than just registering in Spain. You don't need a visa, you need a permit. And you can get that while you are in Spain.

You will need to unregister yourself from Denmark. You can not be registered in two countries. One has to be your main place to stay.

Normally when all parties know the rules (as they should) it is arranged at the moment you register. Don't accept other answers caused by ignorance!!. Sometimes (depends on the country) it is a two step registration. It can be done in 1 or 2 days. First register that you live there, you need the rental contract for that. And the 2nd step is registering at the foreign police station.

You do need to have proof that you are a EU citizens (passport) and proof you are married (certificate). Also proof you have an income or other financial means. They absolutely hate it when someone is living in the country and wants to have welfare.

If it makes you feel more comfortable why not have a short trip to Spain and see if you can get it arranged. If it fails (i doubt it) you can still use the embassy.

I don't have to wish you luck, because it is not depended on luck but rights.

However, I wish you luck with everything in live anyway.

Sorry Khun Jean but your story doesn't hold foot...

Why do you think the EU-immigration laws are so tight and strict at the moment?

Your route would be an open door for partners having their 'loved-ones' come to the EU (their own country for instance) on a tourist-visa, marry and than move to another EU-country....(and come back after a period of minimum 6 months).

Sorry but it doesn't work that way (anymore)!

There was a 'Belgian' route but that door is falling into the lock this year also.

I don't know about Denmark but are you aware that the 'new' partners of Dutch citizens have to study Dutch now in their respective homecountries and do an exam on the Dutch Embassies/Consulates? ...that is for so called non-Western partners outside the EU and a few other countries.

But, I hope the best for the OP anyway.

LaoPo

[the scouser]

Khun Jean is correct here.

European law provides that nationals of a member country are free to exercise their various rights in any other member country, and these rights are extended to their dependants, irrespective of the dependants' nationality.

Therefore, in the OP's situation, providing his marriage to his Thai girlfriend is lawful, she will then benefit from the European rights by association with him, and they are, in theory, both free to go and live in Spain without any overly bureaucratic process.

Scouse.

[LaoPo]

Khun Jean is correct here.

1. European law provides that nationals of a member country are free to exercise their various rights in any other member country, and these rights are extended to their dependants, irrespective of the dependants' nationality.

Therefore, in the OP's situation, providing his marriage to his Thai girlfriend is lawful, she will then benefit from the European rights by association with him, and they are, in theory, both free to go and live in Spain without any overly bureaucratic process.

Scouse.

1. Sorry Scouse, you're mistaken here! It does DEPENDS on the nationality, unfortunately. The so called 'rights' does NOT apply to the so called Non-Western citizens.

2. You're right here........."in theory"; in real life it doesn't work like that.

Marriage as such is NOT a free ticket for the 'dependant' to exercise her/his European laws...especially Immigration laws!

Sorry, but it is NOT true!

Believe me, I've been through that process.............

The dependant, married or not, first has to apply for a (-semi-) permanent PERMIT, before she/he can excercise the European (Immigration) Laws, not just because of a marriage.

And, I can understand these rules because, otherwise, millions of 'newcomers' to the EU/Schengen countries would simply marry during a tourist-Visa and than could become a EU-citizen....

Again: sorry, it doesn't work that way.

LaoPo

[Khun Jean]

LaoPo,

I know it is hard to be believe, and especially if you are from the Netherlands. The diference is that these EU rules apply to every EU citizen EXCEPT in their OWN country. Move to another country and the EU laws apply.

Look at this quote form the Austria government website:

www.help.gv.at/Content.Node/135/Seite.1350000.html

For EU citizens

EEA citizens do not need separate permission for entry into or stay in Austria, providing this stay does not exceed a period of three months.

EEA citizens claiming the right to freedom of movement whose stay in Austria exceeds three months and their relatives must, after expiration of the three-month period starting with the date of settlement, inform the appropriate authorities accordingly.

If all the requirements are satisfied, a document called an "Anmeldebescheinigung" entitling them to right of residence will be issued.

Requirements:

proof of employment or self-employment in Austria

adequate health insurance for themselves and their relatives

sufficient means to live on

completion of training at a school or educational institution

Documents required:

The documents to be presented are published in the Aliens’ Law [Niederlassungs- und Aufenthaltsgesetz-Durchführungsverordnung: NAG-DV|].

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For their relatives from third countries

Relatives of EEA citizens entitled to freedom of movement may be granted permanent residence if they are

* a spouse

* a relative of the EEA citizen or his spouse in a directly descending line up to the age of 21 years and above, on condition that maintenance is provided

* a relative of the EEA citizen or his spouse in a directly ascending line, on condition that maintenance is provided

other relatives who

- have already taken up residence in the country of origin, or

- have already shared a common household in the country of origin, or

- for serious health reasons urgently need personal care.

If the above conditions are fulfilled, permanent residence cards will be issued.

For these persons, a quota-free "settlement permit for relatives" can also be issued. However, a "statement of liability" must also be provided by the EEA citizen.

A "limited residence permit" may also be issued if justification exists in accordance with the AuslBG.

The residence title "family member" applies to members of third countries who are the family members (spouses, and children who are unmarried and under 18 years of age) of reuniting Austrians or EEA citizens live permanently in Austria and who are not entilted to free movement within the EU.

Similar information can be found on other countries government websites. The UK is the same EXCEPT for UK citizen.

from the ukvisas.gov.uk website:

European Economic Area (EEA) citizens - the 25 EU countries plus Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway - and Swiss nationals have the right of free movement and residence in the UK, but see below about the Workers Registration Scheme.

There will be only a brief passport or identity card check on arrival in the United Kingdom.

If you stay in the UK other than as a short-term visitor, you can apply for a Residence Permit from the Immigration and Nationality Directorate of the Home Office. This is normally valid for 5 years, confirms your right to live in the UK under European Community Law and allows you to apply for residence documents for any eligible family members with you who are not EEA citizens.

If you are a national of the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, or Slovenia and you are working, you may need to register under the Worker Registration Scheme. You can find more information about this scheme on the Working in the UK website.

Visa national (citizens of countries who always need visas to enter the UK) family members coming with or joining you need EEA Family Permits, regardless of how long you plan to stay, or your reason for coming.

Non-EEA/Swiss family members who are not visa nationals, coming with or joining you for more than 6 months, need EEA Family Permits before they travel to the UK. A Family Permit is similar to a visa, but is issued free of charge.

To find out more about applying for an EEA Family Permit choose Family Members (non-EEA) of EEA/Swiss Nationals in the "Do I need a UK visa?" questionnaire.

Your family members may come to the UK independently of you, but the normal UK Immigration Rules will apply, including visa requirements.

Although the UK is a member of the EEA, in general the information here does not apply to British Citizens.

Please read Guidance - EEA & Swiss Nationals for more information.

Every EU country has the same EU laws. Not because they want to but because they signed a treaty. So they HAVE TO!

You see LaoPo, it is really true.

Wish i had thought of that a few years ago, we had to jump through every hoop our country ordered to, and it was extremely difficult and expensive.

[the scouser]

1. Sorry Scouse, you're mistaken here! It does DEPENDS on the nationality, unfortunately. The so called 'rights' does NOT apply to the so called Non-Western citizens.

2. You're right here........."in theory"; in real life it doesn't work like that.

Marriage as such is NOT a free ticket for the 'dependant' to exercise her/his European laws...especially Immigration laws!

Sorry, but it is NOT true!

Believe me, I've been through that process.............

The dependant, married or not, first has to apply for a (-semi-) permanent PERMIT, before she/he can excercise the European (Immigration) Laws, not just because of a marriage.

And, I can understand these rules because, otherwise, millions of 'newcomers' to the EU/Schengen countries would simply marry during a tourist-Visa and than could become a EU-citizen....

Again: sorry, it doesn't work that way.

LaoPo

Hi LaoPo,

Have a look at the Immigration (European Economic Area] Regulations 2006. This is a UK piece of legislation, but is based upon the EU Directive 58/2004 (?) which required member states to enact its provisions by 30 April 2006: the rules are therefore the same for all member states.

In particular, pay attention to section 11(2) which states:-

A person who is not an EEA national must be admitted to the United Kingdom if he is a family member of an EEA national...... and produces on arrival—

(a) a valid passport; and

( an EEA family permit, a residence card or a permanent residence card.

It really is as simple as that!

A British person, however, who wishes to bring his wife to the UK, is bound by the more stringent UK national law, rather than European legislation. However, there is an exception to this. Where the, for example, UK national has been working in another EEA country, he is then considered to be a "European" national for the purposes of this legislation and may apply for a family permit for his spouse. See section 9:-

(1) If the conditions in paragraph (2) are satisfied, these Regulations apply to a person who is the family member of a United Kingdom national as if the United Kingdom national were an EEA national.

(2) The conditions are that—

(a) the United Kingdom national is residing in an EEA State as a worker or self-employed person or was so residing before returning to the United Kingdom; and

( if the family member of the United Kingdom national is his spouse or civil partner, the parties are living together in the EEA State or had entered into the marriage or civil partnership and were living together in that State before the United Kingdom national returned to the United Kingdom.

(3) Where these Regulations apply to the family member of a United Kingdom national the United Kingdom national shall be treated as holding a valid passport issued by an EEA State for the purpose of the application of regulation 13 to that family member.

Cheers,

Scouse.

[Khun Jean]

However, there is an exception to this. Where the, for example, UK national has been working in another EEA country, he is then considered to be a "European" national for the purposes of this legislation and may apply for a family permit for his spouse.

It is this part that enables people to go back to their own country with their spouses. They "build up" EU rights when living/working in another EU country. Estimates are that it should be at least 6 months, but i have read that even 1 day can be enough. Once you get a residency permit in another country on EU grounds, you have EU rights in your own country. But to be sure people often stay 6 months. This because the duration is not stated in the treaties, and thus can be open to interpretation.

[the scouser]

Don't forget that the spouse needs to be resident in the other EU country too, in order to benefit from that provision. For example, a Dutchman couldn't live and work in the UK and then rely upon these rights to bring his wife from Thailand to the Netherlands. She would have to be resident in the UK along with the husband.

In this example, the Dutchman would have to obtain a family permit for the UK and live with his wife there for an undefined period before seeking a family permit for the Netherlands.

Scouse.

[the scouser]

The directive is actually 2004/38/EC.

Article 5 states:-

The right of all Union citizens to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States should, if it is to be exercised under objective conditions of freedom and dignity, be also granted to their family members, irrespective of nationality.

The same directive in Dutch.

Cheers,

Scouse.

[LaoPo]

The directive is actually 2004/38/EC.

Article 5 states:-

The right of all Union citizens to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States should, if it is to be exercised under objective conditions of freedom and dignity, be also granted to their family members, irrespective of nationality.

The same directive in Dutch.

Cheers,

Scouse.

Scouse I really don't want to start a fight here what's true and not true; you might be an expert in UK Immigration laws but what I was pointing at was:

A EU citizen (in this case a Danish one) marries a (Thai) lady from a Non-Western country DURING her tourist-Visa, which expires on October 11th.

That doesn't automatically, even if he+she move to Spain, makes her 'fit' to exercise her EU-rights (because of him).

I have been, for a long time, a sponsor/member of a Dutch 'foreign partner' group and the route YOU and Khun Jean describe DOES NOT work.

Sorry for that but I rest my case here since both of you 'insist' that it is possible for EU-citizens to marry their (Non-Western)-partner during a tourist-visa, move to another EU-country (even for 1 day as was mentioned...or for 6 months) and THAN return to their home-countries; maybe it's possible as such in the UK, but NOT on the continent.

If you don't believe me...talk to Mrs. Rita Verdonk, the Immigration Minister in Holland

Apart from that: it is ALSO in the EU-laws that every single EU-member has the rights to implement/change the Immigration Laws to their own benefit....no matter WHAT other countries DO!

LaoPo

[the scouser]

LaoPo,

I, too, don't want to start a fight, but I'm also qualified to practise in EU immigration law in addition to that solely of the UK.

I have posted links to the law which indicate that the OP is free to take his wife to Spain on a tourist visa and then seek a residence document. Which legislation are you relying upon?

Scouse.

[Khun Jean]

LaoPo

If you don't believe me...talk to Mrs. Rita Verdonk, the Immigration Minister in Holland

Fortunately even she has to follow EU law for citizens other then her own.

Apart from that: it is ALSO in the EU-laws that every single EU-member has the rights to implement/change the Immigration Laws to their own benefit....no matter WHAT other countries DO!

This is where the difference in our opinion lies. Every country can have their own immigration laws, BUT they can ONLY apply it to their OWN citizens.

In short a UK citizen will have a hard time getting a visa for his Thai wife when she applies with the UK embassy.

Same for we Dutch. If we apply for an MVV at our embassy, our wifes will have to do a study of the dutch language and culture and do an exam, and still have the possibility to get denied because the one behind the counter is in a bad mood..

The thing to do, and that is why it will work is that you have to UNREGISTER yourself from your own country. This means everything. Your house, insurances, tax, etc. Then register in another EU/EEA country. At that moment EU law applies. And that is documented very well by the EU with translations for every country. AND every country signed it!

From that moment you have to fullfill all the EU requirements.

Marriage of convenience will still be blocked, criminals and other unsavory people will still be stopped.

But families can not be stopped. It is inhumane to do that. It is also discrimination to treat someone different who has a spouse from a different country. The political correctness and all that it entails is working in your advantage.

I did it myself a few years ago, but decided to move to Thailand. Now 2 years later those rights are lost. So i KNOW it works. This year i will go for it again, but now my wife gets an EEA family for free, same like last year when she visited the Netherlands.

But it will still be valid for only 3 months, and that is because i do it at the embassy of my OWN country and our Iron Lady Verdonk of course. I will have to stay a few moths more in Europe, we want to travel around Europe before the kids have to go to school. 3 months will not be enough. For that reason i have some work in Austria. I will also register there and obtain a residency permit for me and my wife and children. With that permit i (and the family) can travel all around Europe. Not right away, first have to wait for the document.

From the moment i get that document i am considered an EU citizen for the Dutch government. I obtained through that document EU rights. That means also my family. So after our travels we can go to The Netherlands and stay as long as we like, we will have to register for that if it will be our main country of residence, meaning unregistering everything in Austria and repeat the procedure in The Netherlands. With this difference. My wife HAS a EU residency permit, handed to her by the Austria government!!

Another story is obtaining citizenship for my wife. For that she will still need to study Dutch and do an exam. Who knows, we might do that.

The only thing i circumvent by taking this route is the study and exam in Bangkok and the waiting time for an MVV. I still have to proof i have enough money to support my family, still have to proof i am a decent citizen, still my wife has to be of good character. So there is nothing illegal or bad about this system. It is only more humane as it considers a family is of great importance.

Just sharing my opinion and experiences.

[LaoPo]

LaoPo,

I, too, don't want to start a fight, but I'm also qualified to practise in EU immigration law in addition to that solely of the UK.

I have posted links to the law which indicate that the OP is free to take his wife to Spain on a tourist visa and then seek a residence document. Which legislation are you relying upon?

Scouse.

OK, Scouse, let's not fight but for the interest of the OP as follows:

1. once our Danish friend (OP) is married, he's (supposedly) on the move to Spain with his newly wedded (Thai-, and therefore Non-Western) -wife, WITH her tourist-Visa which expires on October 11th; so far so good.

BUT, this Schengen-Visa is also valid for/in Spain and she therefore HAS to leave Spain (1 of the Schengen-counties) ON or BEFORE October 11th, since she will NOT have a PERMIT for the EU/Schengen-countries on that date.

MARRIED OR NOT!!!

2. I wish to emphasize again that marriage as such is NOT a free ticket for the newly wedded wife to excersize her EU-rights, even in the case if the husband (Danish citizen) moves out of Denmark and register himself in Spain.

Job, money or otherwise taking into consideration.

The Spanish authorities will just look into her passport.......Oooohhhh "you have a TOURIST-VISA...but, sorry: you have to leave!"

3. Gents: Please understand:

the route you are describing would be an OPEN DOOR for hundreds of thousands 'newcomers' and that's exactly what the EU-members do NOT WANT.

4. Scouse: you posted links with EU-laws which go back to 2004; the Immigration Laws however have a VERY wide implementation for each individual EU-member-country and therefore each and every country can implement their own Laws.

I'm sorry I can't post any legislation here because the 'Immigration-Laws' in ALL EU-countries are so complicated and changing by the day, as you must know.

For instance: Last year, Spain granted some 700.000 illegals (under certain circumstances) a 'semi'-permanent PERMIT to stay but many EU-countries objected..guess which countries?

And: nobody (in the EU) did (could do) anything about it.

5. However: I am VERY curious to learn if our Danish friend manages to have his newly wedded-wife brought to Spain and settle down

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

LaoPo

If you don't believe me...talk to Mrs. Rita Verdonk, the Immigration Minister in Holland

1. Fortunately even she has to follow EU law for citizens other then her own.

Apart from that: it is ALSO in the EU-laws that every single EU-member has the rights to implement/change the Immigration Laws to their own benefit....no matter WHAT other countries DO!

This is where the difference in our opinion lies. Every country can have their own immigration laws, BUT they can ONLY apply it to their OWN citizens.

In short a UK citizen will have a hard time getting a visa for his Thai wife when she applies with the UK embassy.

Same for we Dutch. If we apply for an MVV at our embassy, our wifes will have to do a study of the dutch language and culture and do an exam, and still have the possibility to get denied because the one behind the counter is in a bad mood..

The thing to do, and that is why it will work is that you have to UNREGISTER yourself from your own country. This means everything. Your house, insurances, tax, etc. Then register in another EU/EEA country. At that moment EU law applies. And that is documented very well by the EU with translations for every country. AND every country signed it!

From that moment you have to fullfill all the EU requirements.

Marriage of convenience will still be blocked, criminals and other unsavory people will still be stopped.

But families can not be stopped. It is inhumane to do that. It is also discrimination to treat someone different who has a spouse from a different country. The political correctness and all that it entails is working in your advantage.

I did it myself a few years ago, but decided to move to Thailand. Now 2 years later those rights are lost. So i KNOW it works. This year i will go for it again, but now my wife gets an EEA family for free, same like last year when she visited the Netherlands.

But it will still be valid for only 3 months, and that is because i do it at the embassy of my OWN country and our Iron Lady Verdonk of course. I will have to stay a few moths more in Europe, we want to travel around Europe before the kids have to go to school. 3 months will not be enough. For that reason i have some work in Austria. I will also register there and obtain a residency permit for me and my wife and children. With that permit i (and the family) can travel all around Europe. Not right away, first have to wait for the document.

From the moment i get that document i am considered an EU citizen for the Dutch government. I obtained through that document EU rights. That means also my family. So after our travels we can go to The Netherlands and stay as long as we like, we will have to register for that if it will be our main country of residence, meaning unregistering everything in Austria and repeat the procedure in The Netherlands. With this difference. My wife HAS a EU residency permit, handed to her by the Austria government!!

Another story is obtaining citizenship for my wife. For that she will still need to study Dutch and do an exam. Who knows, we might do that.

The only thing i circumvent by taking this route is the study and exam in Bangkok and the waiting time for an MVV. I still have to proof i have enough money to support my family, still have to proof i am a decent citizen, still my wife has to be of good character. So there is nothing illegal or bad about this system. It is only more humane as it considers a family is of great importance.

Just sharing my opinion and experiences.

1. And that's exactly what she is NOT DOING... Holland is the first and only country in the world where newcomers are demanded to study Ducth in their respective homecountries; you name me another country in the WORLD who had such a law?

2. Your situation is a complicated one (since I know you a bit) and you choose not an easy 'route' so to speak....

I wish you well...but beware: Mrs. Rita Verdonk is watching you (and your family)

3. Believe me Gents, I am NOT fighting you or the Danish OP....I too, hate the EU-laws which are so unfair to EU-citizens and their (real) loved-ones.

Personally, I believe the EU is on the wrong track with their Immigrations-Laws, especially since the complete EU is growing 'grey' so to speak and in the very near future we DO need newcomers to do all kinds of jobs the 'old' EU-citizens are unwilling to do........

But: that's not of an immediate interest of the present political parties.......

LaoPo

[the scouser]

BUT, this Schengen-Visa is also valid for/in Spain and she therefore HAS to leave Spain (1 of the Schengen-counties) ON or BEFORE October 11th, since she will NOT have a PERMIT for the EU/Schengen-countries on that date.

MARRIED OR NOT!!!

Not if she's married to an EEA national. She is then free to exercise her rights acquired when she married her husband. She is able to apply for a residence document whilst in Spain and the expiry of the tourist visa is neither here nor there.

2. I wish to emphasize again that marriage as such is NOT a free ticket for the newly wedded wife to excersize her EU-rights, even in the case if the husband (Danish citizen) moves out of Denmark and register himself in Spain.

Job, money or otherwise taking into consideration.

The Spanish authorities will just look into her passport.......Oooohhhh "you have a TOURIST-VISA...but, sorry: you have to leave!"

Whilst the Spanish authorities can refuse to issue a residence permit in limited circumstances, I think we're proceeding, here, on the basis that the OP's marriage will be genuine. As discussed above, that the Thai wife has a tourist visa becomes meaningless once she's married an EU national. I would, however, for absolute peace of mind, apply for a family permit at the Spanish embassy in Copenhagen before travelling.

3. Gents: Please understand:

the route you are describing would be an OPEN DOOR for hundreds of thousands 'newcomers' and that's exactly what the EU-members do NOT WANT.

Only if they could con people not only into marrying them, but moving to another country.

4. Scouse: you posted links with EU-laws which go back to 2004; the Immigration Laws however have a VERY wide implementation for each individual EU-member-country and therefore each and every country can implement their own Laws.

I'm sorry I can't post any legislation here because the 'Immigration-Laws' in ALL EU-countries are so complicated and changing by the day, as you must know.

For instance: Last year, Spain granted some 700.000 illegals (under certain circumstances) a 'semi'-permanent PERMIT to stay but many EU-countries objected..guess which countries?

And: nobody (in the EU) did (could do) anything about it.

The reason I posted links to the 2004 legislation is because it is the most up to date. If you can provide more recent laws governing this topic, then I'd be intrigued to see them. Also, bear in mind this is a directive, so it takes precedence over national law. Article 40 of 2004/38/EC required that its provisions were incorporated into the national law of every member state by 30 April 2006. Now check the Dutch IND website (www.ind.nl) and you will see that various new regulations came into effect in relation to EU citizens and their family members on 1 May 2006. Coincidence? I think not.

I am not seeking to be rude, but you have not provided any evidence to substantiate your claim, other than your own beliefs. I, on the other hand, have made reference to the applicable law to back up my view point. I stand to be corrected, but only with reference to the relevant law or policy. You state that there are just too many immigration laws to cite, but, if you are right, there must be one out there which states that the OP's wife cannot convert from a tourist visa to a family/residence permit.

Now having covered the theory, certain member countries are renowned for their intransigence when it comes to operating legislation with which they don't necessarily agree, so it is possible that the Spanish may try and be obstructive when it comes to granting the OP's wife a family/residence permit, but should this be the case, he'd have a very good case for legal action.

Cheers,

Scouse.

Edited September 5, 2006 by the scouser

[erikr_]

I am in the process, I am a dutch national working in the UK and will bring my wife from thailand to the UK on a family permit. As soon as she is here I will have her apply for a residence permit. From that moment on she is free to travel within the EEA with me. That is what I have understood from the advisors.

The problem for the OP may be that the family permit needs to be given within the EEA and not sure if that goes. If she goes to thailand and applys there she will get an EEA family permit for spain as long as OP can prove him exercising his treaty rights.

As far as I know the problem with the belgium route was that people often lived in belgium but were still working in the netherlands. And they have looked into if that was execising your treaty right

I am no expert luckily and will see in time how things work. But then I was living in the UK before I met my fiancee

BUT, this Schengen-Visa is also valid for/in Spain and she therefore HAS to leave Spain (1 of the Schengen-counties) ON or BEFORE October 11th, since she will NOT have a PERMIT for the EU/Schengen-countries on that date.

MARRIED OR NOT!!!

Not if she's married to an EEA national. She is then free to exercise her rights acquired when she married her husband. She is able to apply for a residence document whilst in Spain and the expiry of the tourist visa is neither here nor there.

2. I wish to emphasize again that marriage as such is NOT a free ticket for the newly wedded wife to excersize her EU-rights, even in the case if the husband (Danish citizen) moves out of Denmark and register himself in Spain.

Job, money or otherwise taking into consideration.

The Spanish authorities will just look into her passport.......Oooohhhh "you have a TOURIST-VISA...but, sorry: you have to leave!"

Whilst the Spanish authorities can refuse to issue a residence permit in limited circumstances, I think we're proceeding, here, on the basis that the OP's marriage will be genuine. As discussed above, that the Thai wife has a tourist visa becomes meaningless once she's married an EU national. I would, however, for absolute peace of mind, apply for a family permit at the Spanish embassy in Copenhagen before travelling.

3. Gents: Please understand:

the route you are describing would be an OPEN DOOR for hundreds of thousands 'newcomers' and that's exactly what the EU-members do NOT WANT.

Only if they could con people not only into marrying them, but moving to another country.

4. Scouse: you posted links with EU-laws which go back to 2004; the Immigration Laws however have a VERY wide implementation for each individual EU-member-country and therefore each and every country can implement their own Laws.

I'm sorry I can't post any legislation here because the 'Immigration-Laws' in ALL EU-countries are so complicated and changing by the day, as you must know.

For instance: Last year, Spain granted some 700.000 illegals (under certain circumstances) a 'semi'-permanent PERMIT to stay but many EU-countries objected..guess which countries?

And: nobody (in the EU) did (could do) anything about it.

The reason I posted links to the 2004 legislation is because it is the most up to date. If you can provide more recent laws governing this topic, then I'd be intrigued to see them. Also, bear in mind this is a directive, so it takes precedence over national law. Article 40 of 2004/38/EC required that its provisions were incorporated into the national law of every member state by 30 April 2006. Now check the Dutch IND website (www.ind.nl) and you will see that various new regulations came into effect in relation to EU citizens and their family members on 1 May 2006. Coincidence? I think not.

I am not seeking to be rude, but you have not provided any evidence to substantiate your claim, other than your own beliefs. I, on the other hand, have made reference to the applicable law to back up my view point. I stand to be corrected, but only with reference to the relevant law or policy. You state that there are just too many immigration laws to cite, but, if you are right, there must be one out there which states that the OP's wife cannot convert from a tourist visa to a family/residence permit.

Now having covered the theory, certain member countries are renowned for their intransigence when it comes to operating legislation with which they don't necessarily agree, so it is possible that the Spanish may try and be obstructive when it comes to granting the OP's wife a family/residence permit, but should this be the case, he'd have a very good case for legal action.

Cheers,

Scouse.

[Khun Jean]

Just to add some information from the dutch immigration site.

I entered information for a citizen from Denmark who wants to live in The Netherlands. This will show the rights he has.

Dutch Immigration Website

My situation

Coming to the Netherlands for marriage or a relationship

longer than 3 months.

Denmark.

You want to live with your spouse or partner in the Netherlands. The information here will tell you:

when this is allowed, and

what you need to do.

--

Citizen of the Union

Who is a citizen of the Union?

You are a citizen of the Union if you have the nationality of:

a member state of the European Union (EU)

Who is dealt with as a citizen of the Union?

Subjects of a member state of the European Economic Area (EEA)

Subjects of Switzerland

Family members of citizens of the Union

Dutch citizens

In their own country, Dutch citizens are in principle not regarded as citizens of the Union. For this reason the rules for citizens of the Union are not applicable to them.

Exception

An exception to this rule is if Dutch citizens have previously made use of the right of free movement of people in another EU/EEA member state (see also 'frequently asked questions' ).

Important!

You want to come to the Netherlands as a (family member of a) citizen of the Union. The Dutch authorities require your data for your registration. We want to handle your data carefully. The Personal Data Protection Act therefore applies here. If required see www.cbpweb.nl.

--

Family member

You are a family member of a citizen of the Union if you are the spouse, registered partner, parent-in-law, grandparent or parent or great grandchild, grandchild or child of an EU/EEA subject. In this position you may stay in the Netherlands on the basis of the EC Treaty.

Conditions

The citizen of the Union in question has lawful residence in the Netherlands on the basis of the EC Treaty;

Extra conditions

If you are not the spouse, registered partner or the child that is younger than 21 years of age

Then you must also prove that you are the financial responsibility of your family member or that you were living with him/her in the country of origin.

Residence document

You are given a residence document type I with the same rights as your family member. If your family member has a residence document himself, you will receive a residence document with the same period of validity as he has.

If your family member has a sticker (declaration of registration), you are given a residence document with a period of validity of five years.

And here a piece that answers the question if an MVV is needed. (From Frequently asked questions on the Dutch immigration website)

Is it right that there is no requirement for authorisation for temporary stay for family members of citizens of the Union?

Are you married or do you have a registered partnership with a citizen of the Union? Then you do not need to apply for authorisation for temporary stay. You may enter the Netherlands at the same time as your partner. This also applies to a number of other family members. In the case of family members of students this only applies to the spouse or registered partner. For more information, see under ‘Family member of a citizen of the Union’. If you are not married or do not have a registered partnership than you will need an MVV.

LaoPo, here the information why it is difficult for Dutch peole, but not for all other EU citizens.

Why are Dutch citizens unable to make use of the favourable EU admission rules if they want their family member to come to the Netherlands?

In general, Dutch citizens cannot make use of the EU admission rules as they are specially intended to make it easier for citizens of the Union with family to take up residence in another member state. This means that, for example, a Frenchman and his family can refer to these rules if they want to take up residence in the Netherlands. In the case of a Dutch citizen or a person who is not a citizen of the Union and wants to bring his family to the Netherlands, the normal conditions of the Dutch admission policy apply. For this see the “Verblijfwijzer”, I want to bring someone to the Netherlands, my situation, for how long, which nationality, reason for stay, marriage and relationship, etc.

And here the solution. Live in another EU country for a while

In the case of family reunification, Dutch citizens only come under the EU admission rules if they fulfil the following conditions:

the Dutch citizen has resided in another member state with the family member according to the EC Treaty; and

the Dutch citizen takes up residence again in the Netherlands as an economically active or economically non-active person.

the Dutch citizen carries out, for remuneration, services for service receivers established in other member states and has not moved his main residence outside of the Netherlands. Think here of a lawyer, a specialist or a technician who installs a machine, for example.

So even if the OP was going to the Netherlands it would work.

And The Netherlands is one of the strictest countries at the moment.

Edited September 5, 2006 by Khun Jean

[LaoPo]

...............

Now check the Dutch IND website (www.ind.nl) and you will see that various new regulations came into effect in relation to EU citizens and their family members on 1 May 2006. Coincidence? I think not.

You state that there are just too many immigration laws to cite, but, if you are right, there must be one out there which states that the OP's wife cannot convert from a tourist visa to a family/residence permit.

Now having covered the theory, certain member countries are renowned for their intransigence when it comes to operating legislation with which they don't necessarily agree, so it is possible that the Spanish may try and be obstructive when it comes to granting the OP's wife a family/residence permit, but should this be the case, he'd have a very good case for legal action.

Cheers,

Scouse.

Sigh... don't tell me anything about the IND!

The IND is an (almost terroristic) institute WITHIN the Dutch Laws....

The IND is a government institute and the MOST COMPLAINED-ABOUT OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT INSTITUTE in The Netherlands!!!

The IND AND ITS OFFICIALS is/are so brutal that it even DOES NEGLECT, ON A MASSIVE SCALE, verdicts from various courts.....you just WOULD NOT BELIEVE what these people are able to, acting on a daily basis....

The IND is the -LIVING- NIGHTMARE for so many people who wish to have their loved ones in their arms.....

Ask THOUSANDS of people!....the IND is a Bl__dy nightmare and even the government and political parties are not able to stop them.

Investigation-after-investigation were done (ordered by their own 'Boss' Minister Mrs. Rita Verdonk...) and they just continue; it's a shame that such an institute carry their 'own' laws, within the Law.

Mrs. Rita Verdonk merely survived several times (from loosing her Ministry-seat) in extremely 'hot' debates about the IND.

Legal Action (from a Danish citizen with his Thai wife against the -Immigration- Laws in Spain?), please don't make me laugh; this could take YEARS and as you certainly are aware of: the Country-Lawyers have much more time than a single individual.

Such a case could even been brought to the European Courtrooms....a long, bitter and very costly affair; and....who pays for that?

But, again: I wish the OP the best.

LaoPo

[erikr_]

From the IND website:

Dutch citizens

In their own country, Dutch citizens are in principle not regarded as citizens of the Union. For this reason the rules for citizens of the Union are not applicable to them.

Exception

An exception to this rule is if Dutch citizens have previously made use of the right of free movement of people in another EU/EEA member state (see also 'frequently asked questions' ).

Important!

You want to come to the Netherlands as a (family member of a) citizen of the Union. The Dutch authorities require your data for your registration. We want to handle your data carefully. The Personal Data Protection Act therefore applies here. If required see www.cbpweb.nl.