KhunHeineken

I somehow don't think past failures will stop them trying it on. Then, you have the stress of dealing with your accountant, gathering documents, filling out Stat Dec's and so on. In the end, they might say you are resident and will be taxed accordingly, but it's sure to cause some sleepless nights.

It would appear the million dollar question is, if someone is inside Australia for more than 45 days, but outside Australia for more than 183 days, are they a resident or non resident for tax purposes?

You are correct, and I have posted before that the only way to get out from under the ATO is to have no assets in Australia for them to tax. I know guys that have sold up and moved all their money to a bank in Singapore. All they have left in Australia is a passport, sim card, license, and a bank account with $10 in it. The ATO has nothing to chase, and nothing to freeze. It is a bit extreme, but in many ways I envy them, and may have to do the same myself in the future. It sure would be nice to do it and not have to worry about this rubbish ever again. However, this isn't the type of expat I was talking about. I'm talking about an expat that may have a rental property, some shares, a super fund, some savings, and so on. Income from all of these could be on the non resident tax rate chopping block. Guys on pensions is a little different, and would depend if the pension is deemed as "income." As for collecting, what you have described is basically doing a runner. He probably couldn't go back to Australia, because he wouldn't be able to leave until he has made arrangements with the ATO.

Ok, so why the 183 days? Why not make it 45 days?

You can't renew your license online because you have to do the eye test. Good tip on the Medicare card.

I did note that part. Of course, for most expats living in Thailand full time, this is no joy for them. If you are outside Australia more than 183 days, and that's the primary test, but inside Australia for more than 45 days, and that's stage two test, which one will they rely upon? It offers some hope, but I can't see someone living overseas for 10.5 months of the year being deemed a resident for taxation purposes because they spend 1.5 months of the year in Australia.

I disagree. Say Danny the Dope expat sells an investment property in Australia because he needs the money to build his lovely new Thai wife a house in Buriram. There's thousands dollars in capital gains tax owed. Barry the Bricklayer might get his $1000 debt written off, but I doubt Danny the Dope will get his tax debt written off. I always pay my debts. I wouldn't even contemplate not paying back an ATO debt, but I have no problem with arranging my finances in order to minimize my ATO liability.

Just to make things clear, I am not talking about a tax debt that someone is paying back. That person can come and go. I am talking about a tax debt that has gone into the collection process.

I know finance companies write of bad debtors after about 7 years. I'm not so sure the government does the same.

Yes, all the clauses and sub-clauses of the old residency laws will be done away with when the the implementation of the 183 days primary test comes in. People on a pension who are outside of Australia for 183 days will have to wait and see if their pension will be deemed as "income." One thing is for sure, they know you receive a pension, and they know you are outside of Australia for 183 days, which makes you a non resident for taxation purposes.

They may put thresholds on the debt that are matched up with actions, at the airport. Example, if you owe over a certain amount, you can't leave. It's gets messy then, but like I have said, they are not bringing in the 183 days rule without some enforcement over all the new tax debtors that it will create, and that's us, the expats.

Someone with HECS debt takes that debt to the grave. It doesn't get written off. They very well may just leave it at waiting for the expat to return to Australia. We will just have to wait and see. I just can't see them allowing thousands of retired expats to escape their tax debts because they will never return to Australia. I'm sure they have a plan to counter that. I put forward one idea they may implement, but maybe they will do nothing outside of Australia.

When there's tax funds involved, you can bet the laws favor the government, not the individual. The 183 days rule, as the primary test, is a big change, and I am sure they would only make a big change if they know it's going to make them big money.

They very well might exempt it, or, it's classified as "income" and is up for grabs. I think the 183 days rule coming in is inevitable. Will have to wait and see if there are any exemptions.

Don't you want to remain a resident for tax purposes?

You are / were running a similar system to me, and it worked well for years. I think that's about to change.

I have read the new rules, and I have posted links to them for others to read. Have you read them? I have a simple question for you. Once the new rules come in, how do you propose an individual who is outside of Australia for 183 days, remains a resident for taxation purposes? I'll wait to be enlightened by your answer.

I think most on this forum are expat retirees. I / we have a big vested interest in remaining residents of Australia for taxation purposes. If I was working in London or New York for an investment bank, earning millions of dollars a year, then I would definitely want to be a non resident of Australia for taxation purposes, but I don't think that describes most on this forum. You are looking at it from the opposite way most on this forum are. Many receive a pension, or income from investments, whether that be rental property, shares, superannuation, savings. They do not want to be deemed a non resident for taxation purposes because their tax liability increases, and in the case of pensioners, their pension may be cut by a non resident tax amount, as the pension may be deemed income as well. Therefore, the 183 days rule is of concern for many, including myself. The law change mentions if you are inside Australia for 183 days you are automatically a resident, but that reads to me that if you are then outside of Australia for 183 day, you are automatically a non resident. Most on this forum live in Thailand for more than 183 days a year, so it's applicable to them, and may cause them some grief in the future. It's possible many may not be able to continue to reside in Thailand after these laws are implemented, and they are deemed to be non residents for tax purposes.

Exactly, and in the past, Bruce could put his case to the ATO and say "I still have a domicile in Australia. I still have a bank account, sim card, vehicle, electricity bill, and I have every intention of returning to Australia." All that looks set to be done away with when the 183 day rule comes in. After that, what possible case can Bruce put forward to the ATO? Their primary residency test has been simplified from what you quoted in your post, to 183 days inside or outside Australia. How does Bruce get around that?

Nothing stopping the ATO using the same system, or similar.

You make it sound like it's an individual's choice. There are laws that have you "deemed" one, or the other, whether you like it, or not.

Firstly, I never used the words "cancel" or "refuse." I would think the word "withhold" or "pending" would be the nice way the government would put it, and would probably cover them legally. I never mentioned anything about cancelling citizenship. Once again, this was just my idea of a method they may use to enforce the debt. They don't have many options with expats, but the passport is one, and let's face it, it would make 99.9% of expat debtor pay, or make arrangements to pay, because without a passport, you are in big trouble as an expat, and the Australian government knows it. I just can't see them casting a big net with the 183 day rule, without anything up their sleeve for enforcement. I have posted links that one can be stopped from leaving Australia, maybe they will just leave it at that, and if / when the expat returns to Australia, then it gets sorted out.

Haven't you basically described the old system? Isn't the new 183 day law designed to be black and white. Inside Australia for 183 days = resident. Outside Australia for 183 = non resident. Bruce, in your example, being outside of Australia for 183 days, is automatically going to be deemed a non resident. The same with Jim in your example. I am interested to know what argument you think Bruce and Jim can put to the ATO to be declared Australian residents for taxation purposes, when the ATO knows they have been outside of Australia for 183 days, it's the primary residency test.

Ok, glad you understand that my "passport" posts are just my opinion, however, I have shown that one's passport is linked to their government debt. That's why you can be stopped at an airport. You are asking for a link of a case where it has happened, but is it possible that the people know this law and paid, or made arrangements to pay, they HECS debt, so they were allowed to leave? If you are looking for a news item about someone turned away at an airport, I don't have one to post, but that's not to say it hasn't happened. There are many articles saying this travel restriction is in place. Here's another one. https://www.debtfix.com.au/can-i-escape-debt-overseas This is what it says: "Being in debt doesn't usually prevent you from getting on a plane – but it can happen. In Australia, parents who have unpaid child support and other former welfare recipients with unpaid debt are technically banned from leaving the country and may be refused boarding at the airport." I found this article interesting and learned something new: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/jan/01/graduates-who-move-overseas-to-be-forced-to-pay-back-student-debts I found this part interesting: "No penalties are currently in place for failing to register, but Australia has debt recovery agreements with other countries that allow for the sharing of tax information. Australians who fail to lodge their returns from 1 January could get audited. “Data sharing between countries is critical to ensuring the future sustainability of the higher education loan program and trade support loan schemes,” federal education minister Simon Birmingham said." I had no idea Australia had debt recovery agreements with other countries. I will now see if Australia has a debt recovery agreement with Thailand. If not though issuing new passports to expats, how do you think the government will enforce the debt? They could wait for the expat to return to Australia, and then stop them from leaving, and serve them with a lot of paperwork, but how do you think they will enforce the debt on expats overseas? I have put forward one idea they may implement. You have disagreed with it, and that's fine, but the days of flying away from government debt are over.

My finances have been in order for the last several years I have been living in South East Asia. My accountant submits my tax return every year. Like many others here, I have flown under the radar for some years, because technically, I am a non resident for taxation purposes. When the 183 day law comes in, I expect to get an email or phone call from my accountant to arrange a meeting to discuss a strategy, but even my accountant can't get around the simple fact I am outside of Australian for more than 183 days. How do you think your Financial Company is going to get around it?