Steely Dan

Ah, I see, Shiite passengers I guess that would make them 'suspected' infidels to the murderers.

What an outrage! I'd expect riots leading to scores of deaths and the Pakistani PM making a grovelling apology to church leaders......Hang on.

Well perhaps not all folks are gullible enough to bite the bait?

'Gullible', 'bait' I think you would have to have been living in a cave not to understand exactly the point I was making. Still I would expect no comment here or from any western leaders for that matter as our entire foreign policy is predicated on expecting them to raise their game to our standards if we spare them from having to listen to any home truths. Why the bible though? He could have chosen Huckleberry Finn or the Grapes of Wrath if his beef was with the U.S.

Oh the irony! 'Freedom of information' as they put it amounts to nothing more that preaching hatred, blood libel and poisoning the minds of their children with the likes of Hamas mickey, glorifying suicide bombers. Perhaps the human rights organizations that the Palestinian authority whine to would care to investigate the Palestinian media as a whole for it's record of incitement to violence.

http://www.palwatch.org/

Whats this? Two Bibles containing terror codes found in the Bin Laden house as it was being demolished!

Pakistani security officials have found two copies of the Bible at the house where Al-Qaeda chief Osama Bin Laden was killed.

The Christian holy books were discovered this week when demolition crews were sent in to tear down the compound in Abbottabad.

They were so well hidden that security personnel had previously overlooked them.

Read more: http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz1npRuPan5

What an outrage! I'd expect riots leading to scores of deaths and the Pakistani PM making a grovelling apology to church leaders......Hang on.

Yes. Good points Stan. But we will indeed have to agree to disagree on the bold printed point. Just last week a few Korans were burnt in the Ghan by mistake and that indeed inflamed anti US sentiment. And that was a slip up. So i guess much more deliberate actions such as military interventions and sactions do inflame matters also.

I won't comment more about the Quran incident as it belongs on another (near empty) thread, but I did post a link there that you may find of interest. But it is indeed catch 22, whatever the west does it gets blamed for, yet the colonial era is long gone, how much longer will it be used as an excuse?

Uncle Sam has been vetoing UN Security Council resolutions against Israel since the latter’s inception.

And Israel has been bombing, strafing, and killing unarmed Palestinian protesters regularly and efficiently since then, too.

So why is a Russian veto suddenly so objectionable?

Why Assad Has Survived

This 'opinion' piece is more than a bit of a stretch. Firstly calling the Palestinians 'unarmed' is willfully misleading and the hyperbolic rhetoric that Israel has killed 'hundreds of thousands' of Palestinians is also ridiculous. In fact if you tot up the total number of deaths during both intifadas and operation cast lead it is still dwarfed by the number killed by Jordan when they expelled the PLO. Indeed Syria twice over with Assad senior killing 25,000 and junior thus far 7,500 are also in a different league. It's a shame to blow it's credibility with such comparisons as the underlying reality of the Sunni-Shia power play and the fact that regime change only changes who gets killed is right on the money.

Look in the left wing Huffington post for an article underlining the fact there is no moral equivalence argument that holds water if you want to compare Israel to any of it's neighbors and in particular Syria.

Edit:Removed link as mostly relates to Israel not Syria.

Hmm, China has it's own Muslim separatist problems - It will be interesting to see how they deal with the situation, though I don't think there will be the same kid gloves/what did we do wrong approach adopted by most democracies when faced with similar problems.

There are over 1 million pakistanis in the UK that i guess hold british passports. Most travel back every year to visit their family or marry a relative over there. Mixing that with drones firing at "suspected" targets its a good chance someone will get hit on holiday.

Many more British citizens come to Thailand for their holidays, so there is a chance some will be killed by some Muslim terrorists' bomb. Relative odds are hard to judge, as AFAIK neither event has occurred yet.

BTW your pakistani/brit holidayers could reduce their odds by not carrying an AK47 or grenade launcher, or holidaying in a terrorist training camp.

Indeed.

Don't you get it? Don't you learn ?

I take it you are referring to the E.U and not Assad. So would you have the E.U do nothing at all whilst Assad butchers his people, or are you perhaps assuming that these sanctions are an inevitable precursor to regime change?

I am saying that we, the west, should but out of middle eastern affairs. Leave it to their Arab neighbours to determine if to or how to fix it. Western intervention will just inflame and already huge anti western sentiment throught the middle east.

If you find the actions of a regime morally repugnant I think declining to trade with them is more than appropriate, even though we still choose to trade with the likes of China which is far from perfect. When it comes to military intervention I would agree that the only thing it seems to achieve is change who is being murdered by who, democracy never seems to figure, yet we naively persist in believing this illusion. Where I disagree is your belief we 'inflame anti-western sentiment'. If you look at world history over the last 1400 years you can see clearly that anti-everyone else sentiment has been the rule rather than the exception throughout the Islamic world. The colonial period brought this to an end for a while, solely because we had the means to impose our will. We still have those means but instead due partly to oil, partly to a post-colonial guilt trip we seem blind to what we are dealing with and now western foreign policy has morphed into doing the dirty work of the Muslim brotherhood.

With regards to Syria there is one significant piece of news that seems to have been overlooked;- Hamas have finally sided with the Syrian opposition against Assad. This may cut off Iranian sponsorship to Hamas, but it also lays bare the Sunni - Shia power struggle going on in the middle east. I see the prospects of a major war between a Sunni and Shiite power block as becoming more and more possible - though the house of Saud would rather their infidel stooges do their dirty work for them.

Don't you get it? Don't you learn ?

I take it you are referring to the E.U and not Assad. So would you have the E.U do nothing at all whilst Assad butchers his people, or are you perhaps assuming that these sanctions are an inevitable precursor to regime change?

I always tend to think that those who wish to pass it off as a parody, a joke etc. actually find the real thing acceptable.

Well perhaps you ought to stop thinking then, because you are wrong.

You know something I usually take the view that satire, parody is fine, even when controversial, however there does come a point when someone appears to be serially insensitive then a case can be made that there is a degree of premeditation behind what is passed off as ignorance or merely a joke.

The jury is still out but as of present I'm not going to jump the gun and be offended.

This is what happens when you pander to childish temper tantrums. One statement expressing regret from a mid level military commander would have sufficed instead of the POTUS making a grovelling apology. It only encourages them and is a pretext for violence not an excuse.

http://frontpagemag.com/2012/02/27/koran-burning-and-destructive-double-standards/

The riots and violence in Afghanistan over some accidentally burned Qur’ans are following a script that by now is all too drearily familiar. As we have seen over the years with the riots over the Mohammed cartoons, Pope Benedict’s comments about violence in Islam, or false rumors of Qur’ans flushed down toilets, violent Muslim overreactions to slights are immediately followed by anxious apologies from American leaders. Rather than defusing the anger, however, such groveling merely encourages more contempt and violence.

I thought this was kind of interesting report on all those drone casualties.

http://www.timeslead.../140462003.html

Hmmm, less civilian casualties than commonly believed. It certainly bears out what I have read from some Pakistani press reports, can't say I'm surprised though.

I'm reminded of a conversation I had with a black chap living in C.M. I was ribbing him as to whether he found it just a little bit amusing that the Thais seem so insensitive or ignorant as to what others may find offensive that they have a range of janitorial products called Blackman with a logo picture that was fittingly inappropriate. I then added that theoretically I would find it funny in a dark sort of way if they sold a Shylock piggy bank or something else which was very insensitive to my own religion. He thought about it for a moment and replied, yes I suppose so, but it really depends on who you are taking it from.

This is it in a nutshell. I don't find ignorance offensive, nor accidental un-PC behavior, but if someone somewhere intended to cause offense then that is a different matter entirely.

I think it is good to see Iran take the initiative away from the west with their sanctions by cutting them off at a time of thier own choosing. Not the outsiders choosing. Quite funny actually. Bet the US and their ' brotherhood' didn't see this coming. Now they must be kringing at the prospect of Iran selling their oil to India, Russia and China who are all to happy to take the extra oil.

I note the spike in the price of oil and the bleaking of the US public about the price they need to pay for a gallon of gas at the moment. Hahaha. It is your own governments policy on placing sanctions on Iran that is the root cause of said price spike. Very clever indeed.

I share your sense of schadenfreude but most probably for completely different reasons.

I think several days of rioting and at least a score of deaths is in order... Oh wait, I was thinking of a non-existent thread.

Of course it's a storm in a teacup but a little irritating all the same as Thais seem very sensitive when the joke is the other way. Perhaps they should be told just so they can no longer claim ignorance and either be more sensitive, or better still just grow a thicker skin when the roles are reversed.

i genuinely believe that a lot of thais are pyromaniacs.

they love to burn stuff. rather than let leaves rot and return to the soil, they will burn them. in my village they make chilli powder for sale at the local market. they deposit the husks at the rear of the village meeting place and rather than just leave them there so they can rot and most likely grow again in the rainy season.......... they burn them.

then will sit and continue to work while the smoke burms their eyes and they cough and splutter. its amazing to watch them. finally 2 days ago when my whole family couldnt breathe because we live across from it, i took a watering can and put out the smoldering embers of chillies. everyone could then breathe but they were pissed at me for putting out their fire. WTH.

in my village they will burn the remnants of the rice crops every year. older people die from breathing difficulties because of it. last year the unusual increase in rainfall prevented them from burning and their were no deaths from breathing difficulties. this year the haze is back and i expect to be seeing quite a few deaths because of it.

HM tells them every year not to do it, but still they persist. it seems they are unable to change. Why ?

Burning has another problem aside from the atmospheric pollution; that is that year on year organic matter disappears from the soil never to be replenished. Tropical soils are indeed often poor as it is with less than 0.5% organic matter. We have bought an old Cornfield which just became economically nonviable due to years of neglect. We now compost all kitchen and garden waste. Go to the rice factory to cart away bags of rice husk to make biochar and collect all the discarded coconut shells from the market vendors. Eventually we should be able to rehabilitate the soil, but the Thais are their own worst enemies, you can even get free pea and bean seeds to fix nitrogen in the soil if you just go to the local agriculture development office. They even have a vat of EM liquid yo be had for free, but hardly do we ever see any takers on our frequent trips there. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Palestine is off topic. Israel has not broken any agreements, Iran has. That may not be 'fair', but someone turned down when applying for a firearms license may think it unfair and complain bitterly at the authorities and said authorities have their reasons - In Iran's case there are a wealth of reasons to choose from.

the argument that Israel has not broken any agreement is correct but utterly ridiculous. that Iran has broken an agreement is false as the country is entitled to enrich Uranium for any purpose except nuclear weapons. once there is hard evidence that Iran is developing nukes the "broken agreement" argument is valid. fact: hard evidence is not available.

having said so, it is highly likely that Iran strives to have nukes. since the Shah's demise and Khomeini's take-over the Greatest Nation on Earth™ is threatening the country and its regime partly justified due to utmost stupid actions (U.S. Embassy), financing stupid organisations like Hamas and Hezb'ollah and uttering threats against Israel and its policy vs. the Palestinians. nevertheless, a country is entitled to use all means to defend itself and if it means not recognising a treaty so be it. treaties were broken a zillion times during the last milleniae and will be broken in future.

At least you seem to be prepared to admit Iran has to a large extent brought undesired attention upon itself. As for 'hard evidence' being available or not as to their nuclear weapons program I can only but point you at the last IAEA report.

P.S I agree with GK and have for a while that all of this is just theatre, what will happen is already decided.

Palestine is off topic. Israel has not broken any agreements, Iran has. That may not be 'fair', but someone turned down when applying for a firearms license may think it unfair and complain bitterly at the authorities and said authorities have their reasons - In Iran's case there are a wealth of reasons to choose from.

Palestine is not the topic nor meant to be.....But it is quite possible a legitimate reason for Israel acting out the way they are.

Many well known folks on both sides have said as much.

Yes you are correct Israel has broken no agreements as they have signed none...Which give them absolute Zero rights to demand enforcing a treaty they themselves refuse to sign at all.....................

As to your analogy.............Well I guess Israel needs to be arrested for not even having nor applying for a license? Yet carrying not so concealed weapons of mass destruction.

I suggest you complain to the IAEA on behalf of Iran then and while you are at it explain how neither Israel or the U.S has a license, though nobody is even 100% sure Israel has a gun.

Here is the latest IAEA report incidentally.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/24/iran-nuclear-program-iaea_n_1299497.html

According to the IAEA 65 points of concern brought up by them were met with 65 no's.

Iran can decide for itself who it wants to sell oil to and how it wants paid for that oil. It is no one elses business.

Why can't Iran threaten a pre emptive strike against Israel if it feels threatened. Isn't that exactly what Israel is putting forward?

In both cases yes it can, but this is my whole point - IF Iran had any intention of diffusing the situation it could attempt to so do by addressing the four areas I described in my previous post, instead it is seemingly doing the opposite.

So basically the Iranians should touch their toes & spell RUN?

How about Israel go home take their nuke subs with them instead of pointing them at Iran & tend to that Palestinian Two State Solution?

Truth be told that has a lot to do with this major diversion at this time especially

Palestine is off topic. Israel has not broken any agreements, Iran has. That may not be 'fair', but someone turned down when applying for a firearms license may think it unfair and complain bitterly at the authorities and said authorities have their reasons - In Iran's case there are a wealth of reasons to choose from.

Iran can decide for itself who it wants to sell oil to and how it wants paid for that oil. It is no one elses business.

Why can't Iran threaten a pre emptive strike against Israel if it feels threatened. Isn't that exactly what Israel is putting forward?

In both cases yes it can, but this is my whole point - IF Iran had any intention of diffusing the situation it could attempt to so do by addressing the four areas I described in my previous post, instead it is seemingly doing the opposite.

As far as I can see there are four inter-related issues which will be crucial in determining how things pan out.

1) Sanctions against Iran and retaliatory oil sale embargoes by Iran.

2) The IAEA inspections and the progress they make.

3) Israeli and to an extent U.S faith in the likelihood of sanctions working.

4) Iranian threats to use violence and actual use of violence either overt or covert.

From what I have read I'm of the opinion that the chances of this ending peacefully are rapidly diminishing because in all four areas Iran has closed doors to compromise. First the European sanctions were supposed to be phased in, which would have given time perhaps for negotiations, but by exercising her right to stop selling oil preemptively Iran has started to move the oil price and this will quickly threaten the world economy.

Second the IAEA inspectors were unequivocal in voicing their concern at the complete refusal by Iran to let them see sites where it was suspected bomb making developments were taking place. The door was not even left open for future inspections as far as I'm aware.

Third, Israel and the U.S are no doubt aware of Iran's moves to bypass sanctions via Gold purchases from India and China and Iran cutting sales to European firms reinforces the perception sanctions may not work.

Finally, not only do we have bomb plots in 4 Countries but Iranian rhetoric about attacking Israel and even preemptively attacking if it felt threatened.

When the above four items are viewed together the choice appears stark. Either the west climbs down on sanctions and takes Iran at it's word that it is not developing nuclear weapons and Israel decides not to take Iran at it's word calling for Israels destruction, or else we have only one option left - military action. With all four of the above items Iran has shut the door to compromise making it difficult to conclude they ever had any intentions to do so.

Israel is one of two Countries that achieved a net gain in trees last century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_planting

Whilst this is probably too optimistic in Thailand the government can show some political will in helping arrest deforestation and at least make a start in re-stocking. Such an undertaking has to span several different parliaments so until politicians start thinking in terms of helping their Country instead of themselves nothing will change.

On a personal level I know that any Thai citizen who turns up at a forestry commission office with their Tabien Baan papers is eligible to receive some tree saplings for free if they have any to give, but this of course requires the Thai people as a whole to see the issue as important enough for them to go and get the trees and dig holes themselves to plant them in.

Don't I know it! The air in Phayao province is nothing short of poisonous, I've had a cross between cold and headache symptoms for days and the sun can't even burn it's way through by mid day.

What really annoys me is the short sightedness, lazyness and complacency which are responsible. Slash and burn agriculture with a tiny bit of effort can be replaced by slash and char and so the bio charcoal goes into the earth not the atmosphere. Even the Mayans worked this out 1000 years ago, but it seems beyond the local population. As a side effect the soils become devoid of organic matter through slash and burn meaning more chemical fertilizer is needed and more pesticides as the predators of such pests have been killed by insecticides.

You should really calm down and reflect on what the Iranian regime sanctions in light of the habitual use of PressTV adopted by sundry apologistas. He who lives in glass houses shouldn't throw sejeal stones.

P.S I've no idea who Ann whateverhername is or any of the other characters you mentioned are. If I happen to agree with what they wrote it doesn't make me subscribe to all their views unseen, but I think you know that but just feel like wearing a halo of indignation.

Steely. Perhaps ypu should do a few youtube searches on Ann Coulter. I am amazed you dont know of her if you are American.

Cdnvic

Noted!

Jim, I come from Leeds. Now as the mods asked lets get back on topic. P.S Scott Sorry I didn't read your post before replying or I wouldn't have done so.