Steely Dan

I'm pretty sure Bush's Iraq war was a mistake. Afghanistan? I get the purpose more. However, maybe it's worth noting that only a small percentage of Americans get involved in our wars these days. Volunteer army, yada, yada, yada. Maybe there IS an argument for national service for all Americans. Fewer cases of absurdly long and repeated tours in war zones. This kind of incident kind of feels like karma in a way for a country that has lost a good portion of its moral compass. If its important enough for a country to be at war, the entire population should FEEL the pain of that war. In modern decadent America, not even close.

I think the mistake with Afghanistan was thinking we could bring about a regime more like ourselves than the Taliban. Clearly this thought was delusional.

http://townhall.com/columnists/dianawest/2012/03/16/well_hear_an_afghan_thanks_when_hell_freezes_over/page/full/

I disagree. The North Sudan government continues to engage in ethnic and religious cleansing yet every move to bring Bashir to trial is blocked by the OIC, who incidentally have a high number of representatives on the UN Human rights council.

P.S As an aside Pakistan, that bastion of religious tolerance is penciled in as it's newest member.

Good to see a celeb support a worthwhile cause, such as stopping the ongoing racist genocide of thus far about 2 million people and the indictment of those responsible at the ICC in the Hague. Sadly many celebs who want to appear to be activists attach themselves to more fashionable but spurious causes, which garner more press attention.

The only Palestinian I knew well, was a fellow named Elias. He came to the US to work as a counselor at a kid's summer camp in Virginia, where I was also a counselor. A week in to the 12 week program, he decided he wanted to go to Disneyland. We told him it was on the other side of the continent, and with little money, it would be tough for him to do the trip. He was an adult, so he went. 2 weeks later, we got a phone call from him asking for money for airfare back from L.A. Just one little story, so take it with as many grains of salt as you please.

He was no doubt disappointed at how moderate Mickey Mouse is, compared to Hamas Mickey that is.

The prison abuses, the pissing on bodies, and other prior incidents (by US servicemen) were all very bad, but this incident particularly burns my biscuit. To go to civilians' houses and indiscriminately shoot to kill, is macabre. I await reports by reliable authorities.

I can understand your anger, but if you read the article I posted it would appear the Afghans were actually more upset by the accidental burning of Korans than these horrific murders. Think about that for a minute. The implications are that not only the Taliban, but also Afghans unaffiliated to them value holy books more than human life. I then remind myself the operation to 'liberate' Afghanistan is named 'Enduring freedom', well it would appear that what passes for freedom there is so alien to our values that we should not be there, unless of course the op name is changed to Enduring Islam.

I do realize there are some people in Afghanistan who want something different to the radicals, but they are being sold out by our negotiating with the Taliban, just as our troops are by restrictive rules of engagement due to hyper-sensitivity to our enemy's feelings.

http://www.atimes.co...t/NC17Ak01.html

"even the hawks are sensitive to international pressure and know that an extended operation in Gaza would make a raid against Iran more difficult."

You can see how the pieces can fit together, not that there is any guarantee that this is what is infact happening.

Actually from the following article I suspect the media has covered up no fewer than 7 American soldiers killed by their so called Afghan allies, the fact that such incidents were not even reported for what they were must have left the troops angry and feeling betrayed. To repeat, I'm not condoning this murder in any way shape or form, but a picture of what may have contributed to 'vigilante justice' is starting to emerge.

An Afghan soldier shot to death a 22-year-old Marine at an outpost in southwestern Afghanistan last month in a previously undisclosed case of apparent Afghan treachery that marked at least the seventh killing of an American military member by his supposed ally in the past six weeks, Marine officials said.

All of these people have signed up for a 100-1 kill ratio because they are stupid?

They have decisively lost every war with the Israelis since they started attacking them, but they keep on starting new ones. Maybe it is time to accept the obvious.

Quite correct UG,Unfortunately for the normal guy living in Gaza the obvious will never come about, as the Hamas leaders are being bankrolled to the tune of tens of millions to fight the proxy war against Israel for those who's yellow streak down their backbone's are almost as big as their finance's .

The point I am working up to is that Hamas conducts themselves more like an Israeli proxy than an Iranian proxy. What I have been writing about in other posts on this thread are the lead up to that conclusion.

To me, the important information is how Hamas would conduct intelligence operations within the Arab population on the Israeli side of the fence. These people are Arabs and have an ideological connection to Palestine, not Israel. Not that long ago they were strapping on vests with explosives and killing as many Israelis as they could, now they are cautious and don't want to start a real war?? But more importantly is that there is essentially no evidence that Israel is conducting counter intelligence among the people on the Israeli side of the fence. That is the Israeli forte but there is nothing coming out from any source about the Israelis having caught a spy on the Israeli side of the fence. Leads me to believe that the Israelis have reasons not to bother.

The Israelis conduct operations in this particular effort much as they would run an investment bank. Completely leveraged. Every war they have gotten themselves involved in was set up and leveraged to the hilt to minimize their risk. In this Hamas struggle, they have reduced their risk to .002. Can't get much more leveraged that that.

The irony of this point is, there will be pro-Israeli posters who can't help but holler "Nonsense" even though this is a very pro-Israeli view.

Your pen and paper calculations have a habit of running on to conclusions almost as if there is a calculus style solution. I think matters are somewhat more wooly than that and require the human element to be considered. Firstly operation cast lead, we were first told, killed mainly civilians. Only much further down the line did Hamas admit that they lost over 700 fighters. Then we have the targeted assassination of Hamas leaders a while back, so Hamas are probably well aware of what might come their way if they step too far over the line.

There is also the fact that Iron Dome was a great success and just one hit in a classroom from a missile may have easily killed say 30, which would blow your mathematical calculations and their conclusions out of the water.

P.S Sadly from what I hear a Hamas leader who went to Cairo for talks unexpectedly flew on to Tehran, so I suspect any ceasefire won't last long.

http://www.debka.com/article/21833/

There must have been prior indications/threats by the murderer - at his base. Surely someone with such extreme intentions must have told some others.

You make a good point, however it is possible that in the aftermath of 28 people being killed because of the accidental burning of korans that feelings were running pretty high amongst a good number of troops, so singling out one who was a danger might have been difficult, still this aspect should be investigated. The case of Nidal Hasan the Fort Hood murderer was a case in point where there were clear signs of extremist views which both his superiors and the FBI had been informed of but no action was taken.

My very first comment about this tragedy was that it would receive less condemnation in Afghanistan than the accidental burning of Qurans. Well here we have it confirmed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/15/world/asia/disconnect-clear-in-us-bafflement-over-2-afghan-responses.html?_r=3&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20120315=

KABUL, Afghanistan — The mullah was astounded and a little angered to be asked why the accidental burning of Korans last month could provoke violence nationwide, while an intentional mass murder that included nine children last Sunday did not.

You couldn't make it up if you tried.

That's what they are? Pasture rights? Americans are simply grazing there, like sacred cows?

Well, maybe it looked like that to Pakistani government in the beginning but now no one seems to be in charge there and the next gang at the top might treat Americans very differently. Being friends with the government and enemies of the people is a recipe for disaster.

I think they may be guarding the nuclear hen house from the Jihadist fox. As for the U.S being the 'enemies of the people'. Perhaps the people may feel that the likes of the suicide bomber who blew up a funeral was more their enemy than the Americans.

@Pakboong

Hamas may want to avoid a conflict with Shia backed militias, especially if they anticipate Hezbollah are going to get in on the act and furthermore Hamas from what I've read are already being leaned on by Egypt to stop operating from Gaza and hence may not at this point in time wish to alienate Iran leaving then struggling for new arms.

http://www.debka.com/article/21825/

When you have members of your population brainwashed from birth with hatred and various idiocies, it is difficult to convert them to more rational/reasonable thinking, such as others have a right to a life different to yours. Eventually economics say it is far better just to eradicate them, especially when they become murderous.

And even better if you can get somebody else to do the dirty-work.

I don't know who OZMick means here, but it seems Pakistani government has decided to side with Americans in their treatment of their own wayward goat herders, so far it was going on smoothly but a series of latest incidents put the government on a collision course with much larger segments of Pakistani population than a couple of mountain tribes.

I can't easily imagine what kind of beef those goat lovers have with American government. I can't imagine they care much about Islamabad either, but since they are being bombed by American drones launched with permission of Pakistani government they might finally consider themselves as being at war.

But what do I know, they might be hatching plans of world domination up in their caves, testing new Islamic iPads that will dethrone Apple as the best technology company in the world. Their mere existence seems to be a threat to the world peace.

But the last group of goat herders were Uzbeks, I guess the Pakistani government could equally consider themselves at war with these foreign goat herders, who unlike the Americans don't pay for pasture rights.

Yeah, so we will beat ourselves up about the horror and ask how it could happen. Kahzai already want's an explanation and a trial in Afghanistan, however twice the number died over an accidentally burned book yet no apology was demanded for the deaths yet plenty offered for the books. Death is routine with the hair trigger sensitivities in that part of the world, so why the surprise when for once one of the other side flips?

Who's surprised? Only the media and the screaming heart liberals, we all know the truth, anglo-saxons are murderers, allways have been, allways will be, just look at the history of North america, Australia, Canada, etc, wake up guys, we are THE FOREIGN DEVILS! the Chinese were right all along ;>

Islamic extremists have carried out 18,560 terror attacks since 9/11, at which time there were no U.S troops engaged in fighting in Muslim lands, I think I'll draw my own conclusions as to where the violence is coming from now in this post-colonial age.

have you counted the exact number of terror raids using Apache gunships, US and NATO bombers aircraft and drones since 9/11? I also have drawn my own conclusions, and no need to start on 9/11, just go back to the decimation of the American Indians and Aborigines, the slave trade and start reading History books, mate! Wake up to reality.

I revert, we live in a post-colonial age as demonstrated by the lack of compliance we get from the supposed puppet regimes we install. As for history if you investigate then you will learn that more slaves went east than west, though our liberal-pc press have buried this fact in the interests of self-flagellation.

Yeah, so we will beat ourselves up about the horror and ask how it could happen. Kahzai already want's an explanation and a trial in Afghanistan, however twice the number died over an accidentally burned book yet no apology was demanded for the deaths yet plenty offered for the books. Death is routine with the hair trigger sensitivities in that part of the world, so why the surprise when for once one of the other side flips?

Who's surprised? Only the media and the screaming heart liberals, we all know the truth, anglo-saxons are murderers, allways have been, allways will be, just look at the history of North america, Australia, Canada, etc, wake up guys, we are THE FOREIGN DEVILS! the Chinese were right all along ;>

Islamic extremists have carried out 18,560 terror attacks since 9/11, at which time there were no U.S troops engaged in fighting in Muslim lands, I think I'll draw my own conclusions as to where the violence is coming from now in this post-colonial age.

Yeah, so we will beat ourselves up about the horror and ask how it could happen. Kahzai already want's an explanation and a trial in Afghanistan, however twice the number died over an accidentally burned book yet no apology was demanded for the deaths yet plenty offered for the books. Death is routine with the hair trigger sensitivities in that part of the world, so why the surprise when for once one of the other side flips?

I wonder what motivated him? The recent shootings of Nato troops and U.N staff due to an accidentally burned Quran might have something to do with it. P.S Not excusing the incident in any way but even people who go postal usually have some underlying motive as well as mental illness.

Edit: But I wouldn't mind betting that the fallout from this tragic incident turns out to be less than that from the burning of holy books.

Change their supplier to whom? It's not like there's a long queue of countries able and motivated to do this.

I'm pretty sure Israeli statements regarding the amount and quality of armments Iran supplies the Hamas are somewhat exaggerated. I'm also pretty sure Israel does it best to intercept such shipments, more so when when it comes to the "good stuff". Passing weapons to Hamas is trickier than passing it to the Hezbollah, which indeed gets better goodies.

I know it's a little off topic, but Hamas have come out in opposition to Assad, which would put them off Iran's Christmas card list, if you pardon the expression. Still Hamas appear to have been given a refit thanks to the Arab spring with Grad multiple rocket launchers supplied by the Libyan rebels raining down on Israel as well as reports of SA-7 (Russian equivalent of Stinger) anti-aircraft missiles being used.

She was raving about 9/11 being a government conspiracy too. I wonder what her sign-in name on Thai Visa is.

Aviation related perchance?

10+ years ago I was for going after bin Laden and invading Afghanistan if they tried to protect him. Now, bin Laden is officially dead, and we have spent a decade fighting, dying, spending billions/trillions and - yes - trying to help the Afghans build a functioning country to the benefit of the local population and to our benefit in that they can no longer be a safe haven for terrorists. A decade is long enough. If the people there don't want it badly enough to help more against the Taliban, then let's leave. Their loss. Leave, but make it clear to the world that we are leaving the door open in case we feel it's in our national security interest (or if the President at the time wakes up on the wrong side of the bed) to go in there and kill a bunch of people and level vast areas of the country. Works for me.

Strictly speaking I suppose Karzai is far more legitimate than the Taliban and probably a trifle more moderate too. But everything is relative and it's delusional not to conclude that there is far greater distance between ourselves and the Afghan regime than there is between said regime and the Taliban.

http://www.cafemom.com/group/99198/forums/read/16129575/_It_is_the_Shariah_law_of_ALL_Muslims_and_ALL_Afghans_This_is_why_Shariah_law_can_stay_out_of_the_U_

Behold this is democracy primitives style and certainly not worth fighting for. I agree we should get out, but lets have a quid pro quo and not invite an influx of primitives to undermine our own Countries and furthermore reserve the right to return and bomb the hell out of any group that causes trouble outside their own borders.

The point I am missing in this discussion is the role of the out-dated military equipment. Are you saying the armaments are not being supplied by Iran?

I am saying that if they are being supplied by Iran, why wouldn't Iran give Hamas something a bit more lethal. After all, they have an entire inventory of Chinese, Russian and their own versions, why does Hamas only have rockets that repeatedly fall harmlessly in the desert.

We have been talking about WMDs, air defense systems, etc.. and Iran cannot get a decent weapon to their main proxy.

Plausible deniability.

Right. It's not a popularity contest for Israel. There are much more important considerations. That said, I have no idea what they should do now. Most countries are worried about gas prices, who wins American idol, etc.. Israel is worried about existence crises. Iran is being squeezed now, yes, but no country is threatening their existence as a state/country for their majority ethic population. Also, yes of course Israel's current military is stronger than Iran's (or its closer neighbors). If it wasn't, there would be no Israel. I know many people will deny that obvious fact, but generally, they are people who have drunk the anti-Zionist Koolaid.

According to many, Iran supplies Hamas, you would think they would give them some good stuff that could actually do some damage not to mention, actually test these air defense systems. That would seem logical to pretty much anyone. It does not however, ever seem to happen. The intricate tunnels, weapons stock piles, etc... actually produce very little in the way of terror, and do nothing to tip Israel's hand with regard to their ability to defend against the lethal stuff instead of the made in Gaza bottle rockets which fall harmlessly in the desert. The Grad rocket is the most lethal weapon at use by Hamas and they are worthless. If Iran was actually the terror logistics provider that many believe they are, you would certainly think they could do a much better job of it.

You sound rather disappointed that Iran and Iran's proxies have been unsuccessful so far in accomplishing their oft stated goal of putting an end to the Jewish state of Israel. Nobody is denying Israel has the strong military in this conflict. As if that's a bad thing!

Indeed, just as Jews became prominent in the banking system when it was one of the few jobs open to them we now have a thriving hi-tech military industry in Israel as a direct result of her enemies constant wish to wipe her off the map.

As stated, I can't see any benefit in taking out Syria, unless that is a necessary precursor for taking out Iran. However from what I've read the Chinese have just airlifted thousands of their citizens out of Syria, I think they are expecting escalation.