Steely Dan

I remember when the PAD were carrying out there marathon protest in Bangkok, and my PAD supporting husband (not 'elite class' by any standard) glued to the tv for the four or so months of it. When all of a sudden, near the end of it, this temple issue was brought up out of the blue!

The reason for the protest as we all know, was not to allow Taksin back in. Having said that the whole coup thing and letting him and his family out 'to watch the Olympics' was the typically Thai way of attempting to sweep the problem under the carpet, which we now know horribly backfired.

The PAD leaders became more and more desperate to rally people to their cause using nationalism, stupid things like 'we Thai nah? gin aharn Thai nah?' etc, when this little gem re the temple fell into their laps and sent them all into a frenzy.

This has been escalated by certain factions of the, now, insane PAD. So we have the insanity that is Taksin versus the 'lost the plot PAD faction, neither of which give a flying one about the Thai PEOPLE. They should be ashamed, the lot of them.

Yes what is it with PAD? I actually supported their aim of getting rid of Thaksin, though I remember saying to my PAD supporting wife that I disapproved of their taking over the airport as it invited copycat actions by the reds. I also applauded the PAD for keeping a low profile when the reds took over central Bangkok, but try as I might I can't find a shred of sympathy for them now. I can't claim to understand Thai enough to understand what's being said on ASTV, but the rabble rousing speeches and correographed applause give me the same uneasy feeling as the red shirt leaders hate speeches did. And to top it all Sondhi airs the oppinion that Thailand should occupy Angkor Wat as a bargaining chip, which was no doubt calculated to elicit a violent Cambodian response.

It matters not a jot who fired the first shot, with PAD constantly provoking and agitating they were acting in a manner calcilated to cause conflict, I see the reds and yellow shirts now as opposite sides of the same coin, as Sondhi is to Thaksin. Thailand would be better off without both of them.

Which "legal land border"?

The border agreed to in 1904, or the border mapped in 1907 that wasn't officially agreed to?

Exactly, and (again) rule by International Court in 1962, the borderline did not move since over 100 Years.

as stated before .. that this is only about the temple and/or only about the buffer zones does not matter anyway, since the border did not move.

or iam wrong ?

well we all missing the point ... which is .. WHY they clashing each other ?

even thai nationals seems not really knowing this .. as the media just globalize it as a "political issue"

"Exactly" what?

The 1904 agreement states that the border is the watershed, which puts the temple in Thailand. And that is what everyone signed.

The 1907 maps, added to the 1904 agreement later, should have followed the watershed, as per the agreement. The 1907 map is wrong.

Unfortunately, the Thais assumed that the maps followed the watershed. The French did the mapping because the Thais didn't have the expertise. For some reason (not documented anywhere), the French moved off the watershed around the temple.

So whatever happened in 1962? I daresay the Thais had cartographers by then. As ever there are more questions than answers. Did the ICJ take into account the map being added after the 1904 agreement? Was the decision in Cambodia's favour a result of Thailand unilaterally occupying the temple grounds in 1954? Is the ICJ decision appealable and if so is there a statute of limitations? If appealable why was no appeal made?

On the face of it it would seem that there is an anomaly with the ICJ judgement, and why did it not specifically refer to the land bordering the temple? However handbags on the border stoked up politicians playing the nationalism card is no way to go about solving things. I suspect Abhisit knows this but has to appear to be taking action or else suffer electoral consequences of not acting - again the poisoned inheritence he recieved courtesy of the coup and the PAD is coming back to haunt him.

So they don't want to "cause traffic congestion or trouble the public" but they do want a war with Cambodia.

Presupposing of course that they have enough people willing to rally to cause congestion. As for the hostile reception they are getting from Thais living on the border, I would humbly suggest that there is no need for any attempts by the government to make the PAD look bad seeing as they are doing such a first class job of it themselves.

Perhaps somebody would care to hang a gourd by the entrance to the disputed temple then we could all shake hands and get on with our lives.

"Only six percent of respondents support the use of force. "

Well Sondhi, there's your constituency for you - Perhaps you would care to lead the assult on Angkor Wat.

What surprises me most is that a fascist group such as the PAD can command so many sympathisers on an expat forum where educated people really ought to know better.

Quite, the Nazi jackboot is in danger of being followed by the PAD jackfruit.

I think PAD and the so called "nationalists" set up a smoke screen hoping to foster war hysteria and hate against Cambodia in order to foster the forgetting about real social issues facing Thailand, especially the people of the North East. It seems to be not working -- I am glad. The village I live in is close to the border and no one wants what is happening now. They are angry at the government, at the army, at PAD....at the whole situation. Not only does it disrupt peoples lives, but people are in danger of getting killed, their property destroyed. And many of our sons are in the Army--sent to die for what? Old Men's games to keep power and money!!

No problems between Isan people and Cambodians (Khmer).....most of us here are Khmer in our blood anyway - what is happening is a game to distract us from real life issues, like having the right to vote--the right for us to have Democracy and our civil rights.

Lek

PAD do face a dialemma. After the abject failure of their 'new politics' party at local elections they are trying desparately to play the nationalism card in order to undermine the government. The trouble is that Abhisit has shall we say done enough to convince the consensus that he is standing up for Thailand and this leaves PAD again without a means of differentiating themselves from government policies, hence Sondhi's half-witted remark that Thailand should capture Ankhor Wat as a negotiating tactic. I pray the Thai people are wise enough not to fall for this ploy and the reaction of Thais living on the border is both revealing and in a way reassuring.

Sondhi advises RTA to seize Ankor Wat among others as tactical move to get PV back. http://j.mp/gHoprh (link in Thai) /via@Thai_Talk

So the PAD ultra-nationalists who claim they are not aggressors now want to extend the conflict by invading an area of Cambodia that is not disputed for (ahem ) tactical reasons. You have to hand it to them for cheek; After blockading the airport to bring a government down and in so doing set a blueprint for the reds to follow and now after trying with dismal results to turn to conventional politics they are out again plotting to bring down the current government with completely UNdemocratic actions. They are a joke and a laughing stock, but still evidently capable of destroying Thailand's economy with their stupidity.

So just to confirm, whatever is reported in Thai media is 100% correct???

May be you could explain when Thai media denied having any Thai soldiers being captured, HOWEVER after the truce agreement, media stated that all captured Thai soldiers were released and by the way, all that in the past 72 hours or so.

Well in war truth is the first casualty, and judging by Thailands rank in the international rankings for press freedom you can conclude it was probably lynched some time ago.

wow, only 18 posts to the first 'if you don't like it or agree with everything thailand does move elsewhere' post

How many more until the veiled threat that visa regulations should be tightened up?

Well the Yellow shirts are probably so happy that they are putting condoms on over there head.

This is what they have been hoping for. The lot of them should be airlifted into the center of it and they might change there mind.

:jap: Yes, congratulations to the ultra-nationalists who look to have a few more deaths to sate their bloodlust. This little spat is lilliputian in it's futility and does not bode well for the division of oil reserves in contested ocean territory.

For anyone who doubts this is nothing more than an ego/power play by manipulative old men need to little more than plot a graph of Thai-Cambodian squabbles against time and then highlight the dates of general elections in each Country. Sad indeed.

Thailand objected to the maps in the 1960's which is why it went to the ICJ in the first place. The WHO decision was in 2008.

But this fight isn't over the temple, which is the only thing the ICJ ruled on. This fight is over the land near the temple. For various reasons, the border in this area has never been properly demarcated.

It's just should we say highly coincidental that the 4.6sq Km of scrub which is in dispute happens to be extremely close to the temple which the ICJ ruled on, so by disputing this territory has the also coincidental effect of preventing Cambodia from gaining any tourist revenue from the temple.

In other words Thailand is relying on a technicality to attempt to bully/coerce Cambodia into tearing up the ICJ judgement and WHO registration by indirect means seeing as they know full well they would get nowhere through recognised international channels.

The ICJ specifically did not rule on the land. There is no technicality about it.

This does not change my point one iota. There are hundreds of kilometers of border between Thailand and Cambodia, not to mention Thailand's borders with other neighbouring Countries. I suspect the demarcation of many border areas is unclear but not so hotly disputed. Indeed when munitions landed in Thai territory and Karen fighters crossed into Thailand following internal strife in Myannmar Thailand's attitude was to turn the other cheek provided such occurences were limited, contrast this with the small area of land next to the Temple which was internationally judged to belong to Cambodia. You may be able to convince a small number of PAD ultra-nationalists with semantic arguments but nobody else is fooled.

Thailand objected to the maps in the 1960's which is why it went to the ICJ in the first place. The WHO decision was in 2008.

But this fight isn't over the temple, which is the only thing the ICJ ruled on. This fight is over the land near the temple. For various reasons, the border in this area has never been properly demarcated.

It's just should we say highly coincidental that the 4.6sq Km of scrub which is in dispute happens to be extremely close to the temple which the ICJ ruled on, so by disputing this territory has the also coincidental effect of preventing Cambodia from gaining any tourist revenue from the temple.

In other words Thailand is relying on a technicality to attempt to bully/coerce Cambodia into tearing up the ICJ judgement and WHO registration by indirect means seeing as they know full well they would get nowhere through recognised international channels.

Abhisit is in effect highlighting the diversionary nature of the PAD rantings. Their agenda is in my oppinion to try to steal the ground the democrats have occupied come the next election and to avoid their leaders facing the consequences of their actions regarding the airport occupation. Of course if your only source on news is ASTV and interminable hours of inflamatory speeches it is easy to be brainwashed and not notice the man behind the curtain yanking the levers.

What is it with Nigerians? They do seem to account for more than their fair share of drug mules, which I'm sure doesn't go unnoticed by customs, I suspect a Nigerian passport is not far short of wearing a T-shirt with cavity search required written on it.

For every tank that Cambodia mobilize, Thailand can mobilize 10 tanks. Thailand can easily out number the Cambodian. http://upload.wikime...doChina1886.jpg

This is a worrying situation. I live on the Cambodian border and of late have noticed an increase in air activity. Yesterday four helicopters of the Thai Air Force flew up and down the border. In addition a few days ago a squadron of F26's did likewise.

It's most revealing to even be thinking along the lines of who has the most capable army as this is just one step away from asserting your point of view through force. True Thailand have been set a bad example by the way colonial powers treated them in the past, and I also dare say Thailand would probably get away with a limited amount of changing borders by force before they would face international sanctions, but is it really worth it over a pile of stones which if it were not contested would probably bring tourism revenue to both parties.

If this is not resolved peacefully I see zero chance of maritime oil exploration being resolved without violence and in that area Cambodia could always trade oil rights for defence guarantees with Vietnam and I'm 100% sure in such an eventuality things would not end happily for Thailand.

By using Amsterdam's logic with Abhisit allegedly having duel citizenship, Monetenegro citizen Thaksin Shinawattra can now be investigated and tried for crimes against humanity at the ICC since Montenegro has ratified or acceded to the Rome Statute. To paraphrase Amsterdam:

"The court has the authority to investigate and prosecute people who are citizens of countries that are its members, which Montenegro is."

Yes, he could also be tried in a Montenegro court for these crimes. They Thai authorities could file a complain or you could do it probably too.

In the grand scheme of things I would have thought the 2000+ extra-judicial killings during Thaksin's war on drugs would make a far more compelling case for Mr Amsterdam to bring before the ICC. If someone was to cross his palm with silver I'd love to hear him having to cite conflict of interest whilst knowing such a case would be a slam-dunk to win compared to the one he has taken on.

Let the games begin.

Let's hope this time around there will be televised debates on the issues, without the fear of 'defamation of character' lawsuits flying around. Even better than that would be 'village meetings' with candidates, where villagers can step forth and speak their minds. All invited, and no recriminations for those who speak out. Could that sort of real democracy happen in Thailand? One hopes so.

It's odd, that Red movement members had a golden opportunity to have elections much sooner (late 2010) but even though that was their primary demand, they didn't agree to Mr. Abhisit's acceptance. Well, it wasn't really their choice, as it was the absentee puppeteer who told them not to go along with the plan. Ironic, that when their demands were met, they backed down - probably because they really thought the government would not agree to early elections, and the deeper fear that they couldn't garner near as many votes this time around.

If I was Thai he would certainly get my vote. He dealt calmly with the hired red thugs and now that PAD are showing themselves to be a collection of loose cannon ultra nationalists I expect he will deal with them too. I do look forward to the opposition parties trying to put forward a manifesto which has a bit more substance than bring back Thaksin or invade Cambodia, but I doubt it. Indeed from where I'm standing Abhisit should win by a landslide, though I sadly suspect the Thai people may discard the best prime minister they ever had, but I do live in hope.

Hmmm, Used to work for the U.S government - I guess he should know all about Ponzi schemes then.

let me see if i understand this.

Prime minister Abhisit would like to see more skilled Thai workers getting jobs in the uk but the problem is the immigration restrictions are quite strict, mmm maybe the UK should adopt the Thai policies on, immigration, home ownership and working so that opportunities are more equal.

Is the plan on car manufacture to include massive duty being collected by countries that import the vehicles? Probably not as that may be viewed as a protectionist measure.

Ok, I'll see what I can do with my UK connections. Perhaps we can stretch to a modest quota increase for masseuses and domestic helpers, but I'm not sure we need a cleaner to dust the crown jewels. Could we just ask for one little thing in return? Drop these silly visa run requirements for British nationals who would rather not be whisked off to the border every 90 days by a psychopath driving a minivan.

Thanks.

Please help me understand this better.

I donot understand how it is possible for Thailand to simply withdraw from the agreement they signed in 2000. I cannot comprhend how PAD sees how this can be done.If it is easy to just withdraw from signed agreements why have them in the first place?

The gospel according to PAD seems to be that Thai law has sole juristiction in both Thai and trans-national affairs. As I rhetorically asked elsewhere, why stop at this pile of stones on the Thai-Cambodian border when great tracts of Thai territory were ceded to the colonial French and British?

There must be an election coming with all the nationalist rhetoric flying around. I recall it was the same when then Thai consulate in Phnom Penh was burnt down in the run up to a Cambodian election. Same same, but different.

Yellows May Join Up With Reds To Topple Thai Govt

It looks like the heavy unrest in the Arab world is spreading fast,.. also to Asia...

LaoPo

Hi LaoPo

I think most posters and readers, especially whoever that wrote and reported that piece on yellows joining with reds to out Apisit govt....

is totally and absolutely incorrect....

The very head of the yelloows, ChumLong, already stated and restated that....

yellows are not out to out Apisit....

They are to pressure Apisit to protect Thailand sovereignty and the interests of the Royal Throne.... and to:

1--immediately declares null and void the MOU43 which has been illegal construed and signed without the consensus of the Thai parliament approval....

and to start a new MOU pending on Thai parliamentary approval, if and when the Cambodian and HuSan desires....

2--immediately withdraws from any and all participation actively or passively with JBC.... declaring null and void any and all previous agreements.... and

3--immediately reclaims all Thailand northeastern territorial currently illegally encroached upon by the Camb since 1980.... and sending all the encroaching back to Camb, if necessarily, by force if warranted....

Furthermore, the yellows are openly inviting everyone disregarding of the color differences to join them reclaiming Thailand sovereignty and northeastern borders formally granted in 1980 to the UN and the International Red Cross to temporarily accommodate the fleeing Cambodian refugees....

What do you think LaoPo....

DO THE YELLOWS AND THE THAI PEOPLE HAVE A VALID CASE TO PURSUE on behalf of all Thai....?

And to pursue your point, what also becomes of the territory Thailand lost centuries back through horse trading with the colonial French and British in order to retain sovreignty over Thai territory? Surely Thailand should have claim to this land too? Thus should unilaterally declare it wants this land back and then March in just as they did when the Japanese were in control and a puppet Thai regime marched into land currently considered Laotian and Cambodian territory?

Yellows May Join Up With Reds To Topple Thai Govt

It looks like the heavy unrest in the Arab world is spreading fast,.. also to Asia...

LaoPo

Hi LaoPo

I think most posters and readers, especially whoever that wrote and reported that piece on yellows joining with reds to out Apisit govt....

is totally and absolutely incorrect....

The very head of the yelloows, ChumLong, already stated and restated that....

yellows are not out to out Apisit....

They are to pressure Apisit to protect Thailand sovereignty and the interests of the Royal Throne.... and to:

1--immediately declares null and void the MOU43 which has been illegal construed and signed without the consensus of the Thai parliament approval....

and to start a new MOU pending on Thai parliamentary approval, if and when the Cambodian and HuSan desires....

2--immediately withdraws from any and all participation actively or passively with JBC.... declaring null and void any and all previous agreements.... and

3--immediately reclaims all Thailand northeastern territorial currently illegally encroached upon by the Camb since 1980.... and sending all the encroaching back to Camb, if necessarily, by force if warranted....

Furthermore, the yellows are openly inviting everyone disregarding of the color differences to join them reclaiming Thailand sovereignty and northeastern borders formally granted in 1980 to the UN and the International Red Cross to temporarily accommodate the fleeing Cambodian refugees....

What do you think LaoPo....

DO THE YELLOWS AND THE THAI PEOPLE HAVE A VALID CASE TO PURSUE on behalf of all Thai....?

And to pursue your point, what also becomes of the territory Thailand lost centuries back through horse trading with the colonial French and British in order to retain sovreignty over Thai territory? Surely Thailand should have claim to this land too? Thus should unilaterally declare it wants this land back and then March in just as they did when the Japanese were in control and a puppet Thai regime marched into land currently considered Laotian and Cambodian territory?

Appears the red shirts were the good guys after all now even the yellows are joining forces with them.

Or then again .... it shows what some people have been saying for a long time .... not elite vs poor .... elite vs elite ... and now a common enemy?

But again I think this is just an internal powergame inside of Santi Asoke ... a big slap at Chamlong by another high ranking member of SA

Or maybe just both sets of "elites" are getting nervous at the policies of the current government which, if implemented, would have far greater positive effect on the lives of the poor than any of the populist short term bones that Thaksin threw at them. A PTP/BJT coalition would suit many of the current ruling class of both sides.

I have pointed out several times that Abhisit's plans on land reform and taxation won't sit well with any of "the elite" ----- man am I ever glad that the concept of "amart" died finally

But I don't see the PAD getting into bed with the reds ever --- just this splinter group from S.A.

Yes, indeed it makes more sense now. The class war red herring and now this Thai nationalism red herring are just manipulative strategies of squabling oligarchs to get the masses to do their bidding. Perhaps if either group chose to scratch under the surface they may look at the much larger question of marine oil exploration. I'm sure Abhisit is very well aware of this issue and doing his best to further Thailand's interests here instead of kicking up a smokescreen of Thai nationalism to hide behind.