Steely Dan

The red apologists always get upset when they sense that the initiative is slipping away from them.

Then they get nasty when the bully-boy tactics start to fade.

There are two things that are happening now:

First, that the reds have definitively shown that they are not negotiating and that they have no intention of leaving their Bangkok bunker while Thaksin is paying their salaries.

The red leadership is embarrassed but Thaksin has reversed the agreement.

This is not surprising since the agreement does not satisfy his key objective.

Secondly, the Govt now has a fix on who are the blackshirts who have a separate line to Thaksin.

While the thugs are being paid they will not leave. the 'occupation' is their job now.

Jataporn originally said the reds should burn down Bangkok.

Thaksin's message is consistent:

If you don't give it to me I will destroy it.

That is the story.

The whole story.

If only his parent's hadn't pandered to his temper tantrums as a two year old none of this would be happening now; some butterfly effect!

Get rid of this scum NOW!!

I thought we not allowed to insult Thai nationals on this forum

What about Montenegrins?

Why mention 6.00PM???

Is this to let the Issaanites finish their fermented fish and entrails early? Surely this can't be the government attempting psy-ops because the reds obviously don't believe a word of it. You don't suppose someone has thought outside the box and decided to go for 5.00PM instead?

Abhisit, here again shows his inability to keep his words. Cunning, and always look for an excuse is never a leadership quality. What he will become in his political future, another Chuan LEEKPAI?

Abhisit has demonstrated he was prepared to negotiate and compromise in good faith, the reds have shown they are incapable of good faith.

Abhisit in handing over CRES management to Anupong has demonstrated the military are at present unwilling or unable to act decisively for whatever reason.

The Police have demonstrated as ever that they are as much use as a chocolate fireguard.

The Reds have demonstrated their hollow words when paying lip service to 'democracy', they are Thaksin's paid mercenaries employing Maoist tactics - it's a shame they are not up against a real Maoist government as they would then receive their just desserts.

Yes, I like this summary. I'd only add that Abhisit & CRES have made some real blunders with these announcements as far as satisfying the public and winning the media war is concerned. Overpromise and underdeliver is the OPPOSITE of good service. When it comes to making threats, they should have learned by now that threats only serve to strengthen the hand of the Reds. They need to ACT first, THEN explain.

Blunders; Where do you begin?

a) After the ASEAN summit and the previous Songkran Abhisit had a year to prepare and nip problems in the bud.

Why let 5000 extra reds into the area?

c) If you have a negotiation deadline what about a fallback option? People could have been evacuated including embassy staff, hospitals etc and services cut with a bit of forward planning.

Unfortunately planning has never been the Thai's strongest suit and in this respect the reds have run rings round the government always seemingly one step ahead. If the Cambodians invaded I suspect it would be 24 hours wait before a steering committee met to decide on a response as they would not meet on an 'auspicious day' - On current showing the Cambodians would be at the Burmese & Malaysian borders within a week.

I agree with most of that... I guess. What would you have the govt. do? Go sing songs around a campfire and kiss and make up. I think you're being a little naieve here. ... But order must be restored.

The government should declare a general amnesty equally applicable to everyone from Abhisit all the way down to the bamboo spear totting Red. Only Montenegrin citizens should be excluded.

Is this a perfect solution? No. Is there a perfect solution? No.

Its the best available, because its the only solution that holds out the opportunity, not the guarantee, of elections that are seen as legitimate by all major political grouping in Thailand. This revolt will never end without a government that is perceived as legitimate, and only free and fair elections can deliver that.

And yes, order must be restored. Buy only by a government that is perceived to be legitimate by Reds and well as others.

If the Reds, or that matter the Yellows, continue with the kind of behaviour both have shown AFTER a free and fair election produces a government untainted by both Thaksin's sins and coup, then that government, not this one, would have the widely perceived legitimacy required to use force successfully.

Thailand isnt there yet. And it needs to get there fast. FAST, before society unravels.

And only a general amnesty will allow that to happen.

Thailand will never make any progress until the principle that two wrongs don't make a right is understood. Amnesty to the murderous thugs who launched hand grenades all round Bangkok or repeatedly incited and planned violence. These people are unfit to govern and should be locked up for a long time.

In case it has escaped you Abhisit offered a new early election and path to reconciliation in good faith - the reds in response showed their true colours. The year zero started with Thaksin's attempts to plunder Thailand whilst subverting the democratic process, not with the yellow protests.

Abhisit gave the offer to look forwards, the reds insist on looking backwards, they don't desire justice or democracy only the reinstatement of their despot, the rank and file have been lied to.

Abhisit, here again shows his inability to keep his words. Cunning, and always look for an excuse is never a leadership quality. What he will become in his political future, another Chuan LEEKPAI?

Abhisit has demonstrated he was prepared to negotiate and compromise in good faith, the reds have shown they are incapable of good faith.

Abhisit in handing over CRES management to Anupong has demonstrated the military are at present unwilling or unable to act decisively for whatever reason.

The Police have demonstrated as ever that they are as much use as a chocolate fireguard.

The Reds have demonstrated their hollow words when paying lip service to 'democracy', they are Thaksin's paid mercenaries employing Maoist tactics - it's a shame they are not up against a real Maoist government as they would then receive their just desserts.

Well the coup in 2006 and the disbanding of PPP also disturbed the democratic structure of the country .

As i said am not against it , it would be interesting to see what the reds would say were

the PM to propose it to them

You may have not noticed, but the reds rejected a referendum and early elections.

I think it's been mentioned around here a couple (thousand) times in the past few days.

It was never about elections, nor democracy for that matter. It is only about Thaksin's money and reinstatement as prime minister. The biggest obstacle for Thaksin is and always was the army succession. Abhisit has played the only cards left to him - demonstrating the real agenda behind the red mercenary rabble. With Anupong so close to retirement the army are unlikely to get involved in a high risk fire fight and the police are the same police who carried out 2,500 extra-judicial killings under Thaksin - they are brown shirted mafia.

So what can Abhisit do? I'm sure that if military steps were taken to resolve the situation the reds would burn down surrounding buildings so it may be best to sit tight, do nothing and wait for the military reshuffle - By that time the reds should be universally despised and a general would be in place prepared to do to the reds what Thaksin let the police do to those they wanted rid of. Meanwhile I bet most Thais would cheer and throw ticker tape off the highest buildings.

There are some practical steps which can be taken in the meantime;-

1) evacuate all residents and put them up in the many empty hotels around Bangkok.

2) A blockade should be exactly that, seal the reds in to rot in their own filth.

3) Pass legislation jailing every protester who doesn't leave.

4) Fine them more money than Thaksin has promised them.

5) Freeze all of Thaksin's assets.

6) Contact Mossad and say we have a very large bounty if you can rid us of a certain overseas troublemaker.

They are staging an ILLEGAL occupation. Bountiful food and water is available minutes from their occupation area. All they have to do is LEAVE. They should leave. Thailand is DISGUSTED with the red shirts. Face it.

Don't you think you're repeating yourself a little too often?

Seriously, I think that we'll just have to accept that the red shirts will be camped out at Rajprasong for the next 8 months, until the Constitution Court delivers the verdict that the Democrats will be dissolved because of corruption.

Remember when Bangkok had to put up with the yellow shirts for 8 months until the Constitution Court delivered the verdict that Thaksin's party would be dissolved?

Looks like the same thing is happening now. Same thing. New shirt.

Sorry to p1ss on your bonfire but if we're talking wars of attrition I think you will find the little matter of army succession will have taken place before then and the democrats will become the new democrats if need be just as Thai Rak Thai changed names so often. This is why your beloved reds are trying desperately to cause a massacre before then.

One more thing that no-one has mentioned: Pratunam is full of little sois running off in all directions. It would be almost impossible for the army to block them all off. Trying to isolate the area won't cut off their supplies and will just inconvenience the local residents. The only thing that would break up the protest would be to cut off their funds. Even if they would continue to protest without being paid, they need to pay for food and other supplies. Without money, the protest would wither and die.

Yes, there is a thought. As Thai Military Intelligence seems to be something of an oxymoron perhaps they can sub-contract the job to Mossad. Coming to think of it why haven't they shut down all Thaksin's financial interests here and confiscated the lot as bail for his treason?

So if there are elections and someone favourable to the reds is elected, can they stop this man (whose name no-one remembers) getting into power?

Imho too late by then due to the threat of coup no xx; There is a window of opportunity perhaps with Anupong not wanting to do anything to cloud his retirement.

Too many characteristics match Red Shirt leaders and apologists to ignore:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_know_..._is_a_sociopath

and how about this one? Malignant narcissism (megalomania)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malignant_narcissism

It's corruption versus corruption... The government has lost the edge already when they proposed that Road map.

Let me tell you that in the end this road map is a joke!!!! And the Red shirt leaders have done an excellent job of using it to their advantage!!!!

What planet are you on? The Roadmap could have been lifted in essence from the UDD manifesto. Abhisit probably knew a lot of the reds wouldn't buy it because of their paymaster Thaksin and the violent intimidator Seh Daeng who want nothing other than a factional coup within the army, but I think he was playing to the gallery of public opinion so when the inevitable end comes the reds will have little sympathy. As for corruption or for that matter violence, both sides are guilty but in terms of size and scope Thaksin presided over an infinitely worse situation and one which he was trying to make permanent by subverting the law and constitution in his favour - it is that and not the Yellowshirt protests which are the root cause of today's problems.

A month ago when I suggested that the government start cracking heads I was chastised on this website. I think that now most people would agree that it is long overdue.

Agreed, I'm usually against violence and Abhisit to his credit has avoided it so far, but enough is enough! I think the moderators should read my thoughts and ban me for I have an image in my mind of how Ghengis Khan would have dealt with this situation - you would see the rotting cadavers on poles between Bangkok and Isaan.

But fortunately we live in the 25th Century and so a little attrition plus a medium sized shoot out should suffice.

What is clear today is the rash of armchair Guardianistas (Guardian is left wing UK paper) who bend to ridiculous lengths to side with their cut out idea of who is the oppressed whilst at the same time would be screaming for the army to slaughter every last demonstrator had they behaved as the reds have in their home cities.

Letting a Thai drive in the UK, is that wise?! I always tell my better half that it saves the bother if I drive, is this not an option?

That wasn't Suthep. That was Kasit, the Foreign Minister.

Some infos about your idol

Suthep gave title deeds to 592 plots of land in Khao Sam Liam, Kamala and Nakkerd hills of Phuket province to 489 farmers. It was later found that members of 11 wealthy families in Phuket were among the recipients .Unrepentant, Suthep addressed a huge crowd in his Surat Thani constituency a month before a no-confidence debate and called on his supporters to march on Bangkok in their hundreds of thousands to defend his reputation

In 2009, Suthep was accused of violating the Constitution of Thailand by holding equity in a media firm that had received concessions from the government. Under the 1997 Constitution of Thailand, which Suthep had supported, Members of Parliament are banned from holding stakes in companies which have received government concessions

Thank you Pornsasi for pointing this out to some of the people here that have VERY short memories on this particular person. Before any real reconciliation can take place these Terrorist Yellow shirt leaders must be legally dealt with, because at the moment they are still on the loose with big smiles on their faces. What a joke.

Here we have the crux of the problem. I think Abhisit would make a great leader for a developed democracy, but he came to power with a poisoned inheritance. Some of his coalition are certainly soiled goods by any reasonable measure, the trouble is the opposition are immeasurably worse. If people want to make a song and dance about 25 deaths (principally due to the red rabble being seeded with snipers) then what about the 2,500 extra-judicial executions their lord and master was responsible for?

Abhisit is probably 300 years before his time, sadly democracy here is just a word which really boils down to having your very own paternal despot to shower you with benefits not based on need or merit but just by shirt colour. The yellow shirts set a bad example in the airport takeover, but the reds are somehow seeing this as a warped justification to let them have their turn at democracy which boils down to threats intimidation and even murder. Nowhere in any of this is the good of the nation even considered , (perhaps the multi-coloureds are an exception).

In summary to move forward you need to stop looking backwards, this is exactly what Abhisit was offering with his roadmap, the trouble is the redshirts are nowhere near mature enough to take it. Until such time as Thailand is ready a benevolent dictator along the lines of Ataturk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk

It took decades but he turned Turkey into a secular democracy after ridding society of religious nutcases. Thailand similarly needs to be rid of feudal despots at all levels for good governance the democracy to take off - Over to you Abhisit, now show your mettle please.

Any of them trying to stop me, I would hit the gas and run them over if they don't move and that's not a empty thread - thieving bastards

I would also make law that any authorized person found searching a vehicle would be jailed for two years for impersonating a police officer, who do these jumped up stazi think they are, they are?!

As one amongst many internet commanders I would perhaps have done things differently. Cut off Electricity/water weeks ago, stopped reinforcements getting in as well. This is a siege and the attrition aspect of siege warfare needs time to work. Abhisit for whatever reasons has acted with incredible restraint, I can only put his softly softly approach down to a sincere wish to reach agreement, it's just a shame he is up against the greedy corrupt henchmen of a revenge crazed lunatic.

Now I regret Abhisit has to take the gloves off and fight a dirty war, as dirty as his opponents have been fighting. I'm not talking of violence, though this is probably unavoidable, but the following measures should separate the wheat from the chaff;-

a) 24 hour notice for all minors to leave or their guardians will be charged with child neglect.

set up speakers and floodlights to ensure the protesters don't get a moments sleep.

c) Offer amnesty for the first two red leaders to surrender provided they turn government witness.

d) Fine every protester who stays 2,000 Baht a day past midnight tonight.

e) Mandatory 5 year jail sentences for every protester carrying arms raised to 10 years if they are found shooting at the army.

I'm sure the list can be added to but just the above would do the trick apart from a hardened few who insist on self-immolation.

They need a showdown, they need a show of force, blood spilled, dead people in the eye of the world!

How many times they tried to taint this government?

It's about revenge of a very, very sore loser!

Nothing else, now this red shirt movement woke up some people who listened to their speeches

and promises.... people who think that a change, will change their lives...

Exactly! Megalomaniacs only really care about money indirectly, using it as a tool to influence people. The red leaders may sleep in air-conditioned hotels at night, but they are looking at long prison sentences, or worse. Thaksin meanwhile gets to sip martinis by his swimming pool laughing at the mess he caused. This is ALL about revenge imho, the money comes a distant second, but there is enough of it to buy a motley collection of societies dregs and there are some ideological fools who turn up for free who Taksin probably looks down on even more.

A trickle down effect of one man's malignancy poisoning his home Country for revenge. If I wasn't an atheist I'd wish his soul damned for all eternity.

I do not believe you will see a massive armed assault on the Red Shirt fort. Instead, (if they are smart), the will simply quarantine the area, TOTALLY.

No food, no water, electricity, no cars, no nothing. If some of the protesters wish to go home, arrest them 1st, book them and let them out on bail, until it is decided what penalties must be paid for this lawlessness.

For the residents, relocate them for a few days, until this work is finished.

Confiscate all vehicles withing the fort.

Give rewards to the soldiers or police that find weapons, (large enough that they are unlikely to be bribed).

There will be a core group that will not give up, (maybe 200) and will fight. Then is the time for the military to do what they are trained to do. When the fight is over, load up the remains and dump them at sea, and deny anyone died. This is a core group that need to be gone, or Thailand will suffer guerrilla warfare for some years to come.

I know some of you bleeding hearts will take issue with this, but sometime hard things are really necessary. Fortunately (for you and some of the militant protesters) I am not in a position to implement any of this, so it is just another "what if" thread here on TV.

This would have been my plan too, though in light of this why on earth did they let the recent arrival of Khon Kaen Reds happen? Midnight tonight martial law should begin and the power should be cut. Then anyone with children should be given 24 hours to leave or be prosecuted as unfit guardians.

The election date should then be put back a year, when dealing with spoiled brats you have to treat them in an appropriate manner.

David Koresh who founded the SDA Branch Davidian was a bit off his rockers. The barricades he put up in his Waco, Texas hideaway was to keep people in. The FBI did not expect such a fiery end to their siege. What they have in Bangkok does not resemble what Koresh had at Waco.

Why does it not surprise me that the CIA would be hooked up with a clown like this?

The mention of Pol Pot I found especially ironic, though with the kerosene soaked tyre barricades there is perhaps a touch of David Koresh there too - I guess you can choose your friends by choosing your enemies first, perfectly in keeping with long standing U.S foreign policy.

I beg to differ, the direction the bamboo spikes are pointing in is deceptive. Many reds are brainwashed by the 24/7 megaphone propaganda they are fed and captive to the magical pot of gold supplied by their paternal despot in waiting. There are reports of ID cards being taken and kept by redshirt organizers and then you have the men in black mingling with the crowds essentially using them as human shields a la Al Quaeda.

Finally just as with David Koresh Seh Daeng has burnt his bridges, he either succeeds in triggering a factional takeover within the military or has likely built his own funeral pyre.

Why does it not surprise me that the CIA would be hooked up with a clown like this?

The mention of Pol Pot I found especially ironic, though with the kerosene soaked tyre barricades there is perhaps a touch of David Koresh there too - I guess you can choose your friends by choosing your enemies first, perfectly in keeping with long standing U.S foreign policy.

General Seh Daeng was formally assigned to lead aerobics a few months ago. Why is he not on duty? There could be two dozen overweight soldiers waiting patiently for him on a military tarmac somewhere. Seh Daeng should be docked his tele-tubby TV time for dereliction of duty.

Seriously though, the cops who arrested Seh Daeng and his buddies, just days before the rallies started, should be kicked off the force for letting the scoundrel go free. Perhaps the cops didn't know what a giant problem Seh Daeng would be for Thailand, but I knew at that time. Perhaps the Royal Thai police force could pay me $5,000/day for intelligence reports. $5,000/day would be a bargain compared to how much money Bkk and Thailand are losing each day while Seh Daeng and his buddies are prolonging the protest.

....not to mention the deaths and injuries he's been a part of while directing military operations at the black rubber wall.

P.S. my dad was career CIA, but I'm not supposed to tell anyone.

It is a shame that Seh Daeng was allowed to go feral. The 'hand grenade dance' he was quoted as intending to demonstrate does sound like an interesting piece of cultural heritage. I was quite looking forward to dining at one of those Kantoke places whilst watching Seh Daeng perform the hand grenade dance, though I think a seat way back from the stage would be wise.

P.S Red leaders have gone back on their promise to turn themselves in on the 15th; surprised? You could have knocked me down with a feather.

Some brutally honest and succinct comments on this post.

But, the way I see it, the Red Shirts' 'rally', if you can call it that, will not stop.

They change their mind like the wind. They are as slippery as snakes.

They lie and cheat and deceive. They are lower than a worm's belly.

They are a disgrace to ordinary, decent, Thai people.

They have murdered people in cold blood and then blame others.

Many Thais I know, many of whom are from the North, are ashamed of what is happening.

The Red Shirts don't give a dam_n about people's rights to freedom of movement.

Let's face it: there is nothing democratic about people who are paid to protest.

If the majority of Red Shirts weren't in someone's pocket, they wouldn't be there.

They couldn't afford to be there as most are relatively poor and uneducated.

Thinking about it, maybe that's why Thaksin likes to feather their nests.

But, I wonder why Thaksin never bothered to educate them.........?

Send in the heavy machinery now - it's time to nip this in the bud.

Agreed in principle. I think Abhisit has played a blinder in demonstrating the red 'leadership' to be ugly hypocritical cowards. One last gesture needs to be made by Abhisit imho - give the reds their TV channel back on condition that they use it to announce the order to disperse the rally. This would only leave them their infantile semantic argument as to who Suthep should answer charges to as 'justification' for staying put. Of course they will squirm and twist yet more but in doing so cause yet more damage to their image, if that's still possible.

This may at least allow some of the unwitting human shields the chance to leave - we are dealing with a hostage situation here though sadly the hostages are so brainwashed that they are incapable of seeing it. The expected stalling should then be followed by a 24 hour notice period to disperse or face the consequences.

The red shirt leaders have no intention of ending the rally. Their endless growing list of demands are just stalling tactics designed to hoodwink people into thinking a new election is what they want. This is amply demonstrated by their demand for Abhisit & Suthep to surrender to the DSI, this bluff was exposed when Suthep did so - now the DSI supposedly have a 'conflict of intererest' if Suthep goes to the DSI - And so it goes on ad-nauseun ad-infinitum.

It all distills down to Thaksin's desire to prevent the government overseeing the next military reshuffle. Until then they will camp out in Bangkok getting reinforcements and escalating violence and intimidation in the hope of provoking violent clashes giving the army no choice but to stage a coup.

When this is over the moronic farang red shirt supporters need to be rounded up, tarred and feathered then made to sing the nation anthem continually for 24 hours then flogged and deported.

Don't worry Streetwise, if the Thai Government want to know who all these red terrorist sympathysers are on this forum then they will just demand the info from Thai visa, who will then provide said info. So if you are one of the trolls, beware as next time you leave/re-enter the country you may just not get back in. This Government are very hot on new internet technology and they WILL get around to tracking down those names of people who sympathise with terrorists. It is funny as we are warned of this as it is all stated in the info and rules about this site. If you choose to dis the Royals or the Government there is NO SUCH THING as ANONYMITY! Well the damage is already done for many of the likes of Che. As an aside Che you could try deleting all your posts, but as far as I know that wont work, even deleted posts are kept for 6 months. I hope the trolling will prove worth it.

:D

They should also be forced to attend a 24 hour concert given by that Aussie bint who sang all those cheezy songs at the PAD rallies.