backtonormal

Regardless of what happened, when last year, it is for me unconscionable for a gov't (any gov't) to use lethal force against its own citizens.

I hardly expect many people here on TVF to agree with that, but ask yourself how many people would have died if the Army had NOT used lethal force?

The government of most countries use lethal force against criminals every day. Sometimes those associating with the criminals get caught in the cross fire and sometimes innocents do too.

You cannot be taken seriously. Shooting nurses and medics was not crossfire they were TARGETTED. There is an apartment for Abhisit in Dubai. Current owner vacating shortly

There were reports of shooting from both sides that day. I doubt very much that nurses and medics were targeted by the army. What would have been the benefit of that?

Why should you doubt who they hot. Japanese reporter and all the world saw the Canadian pressman, who was already shot, pleading only to be shot again. You must ask which person had so much hatred for these Thai people that he would order a killing spree

Suthep, Prayuth and Abhisit should be handed over to the ICC.

Not Prayuth he was following orders. Now if a previous coalition mp, of the Abhisit regime claims he was made an offer he could not refuse then we must presume somebody cobbled together the previous administration. If we agree with that then its only a short step to correctly assuming that somebody, at this point not proven, gave orders to Abhisit in dealing with the unrest. So replace Prayuth with ??????

I am just a layman but isn't the fact that black uniformed AK47 armed in the crowd have something to do with it ?.

BUT the gov should have stopped the build up of stuff from the beginning, Police useless, don't know why/how they earn a living from the tax payer.

In any other place the mob would have been broken up in 12 hours.

Why not do what they do in other military controlled countries --- Egypt, Syria, Libya

What we should ask is 'Why would so many people face down rifles with fire crackers' what would make people face possible death. When you have had 3 successives governments, who you voted for removed by the army, the judiciary and the invisible hand threatening PT coalition mps with 'an offer they could not refuse' then we are at the route of the problem.

I read so much tosh from supposed Dem supporters on here it makes you cringe, they can defend the indefensible. Systematic beating down on the masses by the few brought us to this flashpoint, forget your Thaksins and Abhisits, people should look beyond these people and look to the real reasons why Thailand is at this point in its history.

It's good the police asked k. Abhisit and k. Suthep to drop by to answers a few questions. No doubt the two gentlemen will comply. I assume the statements of some other worthy gentlemen, like k. Jatuporn, k. Nattawut, Dr. weng, et at have been taken already?

In this case, which will see a (Pheu Thai) MP travel all the way to The Hague, the Netherlands to inquire about the case filed with the ICC on the 31st of January this year, anyone involved should, will and must tell their side of the story. Two foreign reporters killed, 91 death in total! We, the people, democracy minded, etc., etc., we have a right to know.

BTW those this include those killed by grenade lobbing fanatics, grenades which just by pure chance (of course) seemed to only targeted non-red-shirts?

Totally agree. Well done to this Pheu Thai MP who wants to get the truth. I am mostly keen on the findings of the deaths of the 13 soldiers who were murdered by armed insurgents, and for the ICC to find who was responsible for funding, leading and enciting this act of war against Thailand. Once the ICC rule on this then it will be very easy for the Thai government to be able to file the appropriate charges against those responsible.

Please send link to confirm 13 soldiers were killed at anytime during last years unrest

Regardless of what happened, when last year, it is for me unconscionable for a gov't (any gov't) to use lethal force against its own citizens.

I hardly expect many people here on TVF to agree with that, but ask yourself how many people would have died if the Army had NOT used lethal force?

The government of most countries use lethal force against criminals every day. Sometimes those associating with the criminals get caught in the cross fire and sometimes innocents do too.

You cannot be taken seriously. Shooting nurses and medics was not crossfire they were TARGETTED. There is an apartment for Abhisit in Dubai. Current owner vacating shortly

Regardless of what happened, when last year, it is for me unconscionable for a gov't (any gov't) to use lethal force against its own citizens.

I hardly expect many people here on TVF to agree with that, but ask yourself how many people would have died if the Army had NOT used lethal force?

I totally agree with you. The lids off the can of worms, the genie is out of the bottle but whatever the guilty ex gov members will not go to prison under an amnesty

Is it any surprise that there is now an investigation, since the appointment of the new national police chief who is related to Thaksin?

No, not a surprise.

But, that does not negate the need for a properly formed and constituted enquiry to establish who gave the orders to conduct operations the way they were conducted.

Somebody is accountable.

Somebody gave the instructions, orders and rules of engagement.

Maybe a group of people, it doesn't matter.

What does matter is that they should be known and held accountable.

An enquiry may well establish that it's perfectly Ok for the Government and military to use sharpshooters in crowd control and to target photographers, medics and passersby......

But it also may not.

It may also conclude that they were all shot by " dark forces" or itinerant Welsh rugby fans.

The point is the enquiry and how clear it is.

"engagement" is the key word. They were "engaging" with men that were shooting back at them.

proof of 'firing back'

While it was unclear whether or not the Army intended to murder civilians, what WAS CLEAR, was that armed Red Shirts were using whatever they had in their arsenal. It wasn't meant for defense, it was meant for offense. A man with a gun shoots a policeman, policeman shoots back.. I hope you don't argue that the policeman was at fault because that's what you're implying.

If you truly believe that the Army has a blood thirsty intention of killing unarmed civilians then there's not much that can persuade you to think otherwise.

I do not think the army set out intending to murder civilians and in fact I believe the operation was generally professionally conducted.I also believe there were violent elements within the Red shirt encampment, although their origin and paymasters remain mysterious.I believe there were however some appalling abuses by the army which resulted in the murder of many civilians.The army has consistently refused to cooperate in the investigations.I believe the HRW is the most credible report so far produced and as you suggest it identifies abuses on both sides.To date no investigation has been made of the role of politicians (Abhisit, Suthep etc) or senior army officers (Prayuth etc).It may be they would be exonerated but we will never know without a full and transparent inquiry.

Agreed. Those orders will have been put in writing and the receivers of those orders would have not carried out those orders without that paper, its called covering your rear end. There is a copy of those orders somewhere. This is simple ask the people in charge, Abhisit and Suthep to produce and follow the chain of command down to the end of the rifle. Maybe we have darker forces dictating those orders and a true transparent investigation would identify those forces (its not that most people dont know who the dark forces are)

Has Khun Sunai filed charges with the International Criminal Court yet? No? No surprise there.

Has Khun Sunai set a date for filing charges yet? No? No surprise there.

More hot air. Thailand doesn't like international legislative bodies poking around its very dirty closets.

Red Shirt Pheu Thai Party MP Sunai, and presumably with his Red Shirt European supporters in tow, plan to file the charges on Dec. 9th.

Zealots and uncritical supporters of the military apart, I don't suppose most balanced members are too alarmed at this development.All the evidence is that the initiative will not succeed but it is a useful reminder that the murder of civilians by the army cannot be wished away.

Red Shirt Apologists and Enablers aside, yes, it never hurts to be reminded that the Red Shirt instigators of violence have not been held accountable and that efforts to do so will likely not succeed.

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Wrong was done on both sides undoubtedly but lets move to a neutral venue and present the evidence. This scares the pants of those that gave the orders. What were those orders, its a good starting point and if those orders were the catalyst for retaliation lets hear it. The story is out there but it appears that many are blustering to prevent the truth appearing. One side in this dispute has a long history, not years but decades of suppressing people with extreme violence. The CC of the army has already stated that if an investigation finds the army guilty he will take the blame, cant give you a link on here because not surprisingly this neutral forum does not print such nonsense.

Has Khun Sunai filed charges with the International Criminal Court yet? No? No surprise there.

Has Khun Sunai set a date for filing charges yet? No? No surprise there.

More hot air. Thailand doesn't like international legislative bodies poking around its very dirty closets.

Red Shirt Pheu Thai Party MP Sunai, and presumably with his Red Shirt European supporters in tow, plan to file the charges on Dec. 9th.

Zealots and uncritical supporters of the military apart, I don't suppose most balanced members are too alarmed at this development.All the evidence is that the initiative will not succeed but it is a useful reminder that the murder of civilians by the army cannot be wished away.

While it was unclear whether or not the Army intended to murder civilians what WAS CLEAR, was that armed Red Shirts were using whatever they had in their arsenal. It wasn't meant for defense, it was meant for offense. A man with a gun shoots a policeman, policeman shoots back.. I hope you don't argue that the policeman was at fault because that's what you're implying.

If you truly believe that the Army has a blood thirsty intention of killing unarmed civilians then there's not much that can persuade you to think otherwise.

I didn't read that..did I. over 2200 sniper rounds not signed back in. Now if we allow 1000 missing for souveniers were did the other 1000 go. Do you think they were taking pot shots at signs. People were targeted..who gave those orders.

It seems The Nation may have misunderstood. The other newspaper mentions a complaint to be raised with the ICC. Now that makes more sense.

Interestingly it also mentions that Pheu Thai party list MP Charuphan said since the cabinet had ratified the ICC Rome Convention of 2000 in 2009

They've read your post, rubl.

and address both points in their latest.

Sunai to file complaint with ICC over deaths of 91 reds

Pheu Thai MP Sunai to petition ICC against the 91 killed during military crackdown last year.

Pheu Thai MP Sunai Julponsathorn said Monday he will petition the International Criminal Court (ICC) at the Hague on December 9 to take up the crime against humanity case against the 91 who were killed during the military crackdown on red shirts in April and May last year.

Sunai said the move is aimed at making sure that there will be no suspicion that the current Pheu Thai government will interfere with the ongoing investigations by the local authorities.

Sunai, who is Chairman of the House Committee on Foreign Affairs, said he will use his own money for the travel and many red shirts in Europe have organized everything for him.

Sunai said both then Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva and his Deputy Suthep Thuaksubhan will have to be accountable as they were in charge of the crackdown last year.

Pheu Thai Party-list MP Kattiyar Sawasdiphol, whose father Maj Gen Kattiya Sawasdiphol was shot and killed by sniper fire last year said there has been no progress in the investigation of her father’s death and thus she is counting on the ICC to take up the case.

Thailand however is not among 119 member states to the ICC. It has not yet ratified the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.

The Nation - 19 minutes ago

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This: Sunai said the move is aimed at making sure that there will be no suspicion that the current Pheu Thai government will interfere with the ongoing investigations by the local authorities.

is most important. After over 12 months of the DEms stalling the process an independant body may be the way forward. Everybody needs to know the story from both sides. Let the Reds present there evidence and the ex Gov and army present theirs. The PT mp sure is confident and good luck for appearing to do the right thing. Its nots just the relatives of the deceased that need answers its the group that where badly injured by sniper bullets. Snipers attempted to kill people(over 2000 sniper rounds fired),under orders, and if it were not for luck, crosswinds and poor shooting the death toll could have quadrupled.

What ever side your allegiance the same questions need answering if we want reconcilliation

1 Who gave the orders

2. What were those orders

3. Who were the orders given too

4. were those orders obeyed

5. If disobeyed, who made the decision to disobey.

I am sorry some Dem supporters dont see this stage in the reconcilliation process but it will happen

Chalerm claimed an 8 percent kickback was demanded on the deal to construct the mass transit lines, which influenced the Japanese International Cooperation Agency to cancel its contract with Sino Thai Engineering Company

So the Japanese backed out and are therefore NOT a part of this corruption case. But what about Sino Thai? If they are involved they too should be called to explain....

The guilty are not just those that take in corruption but those who give as well.....

Maybe the Japanese explained to Mr Thaksin on his recent visit. A good will gesture to help PT fight corruption. It strikes me that Mr T is fighting a corruption conviction, what a better way to get to the amnesty by showing how corrupt the opposition is.

Get real!

Dems tried to back off Bhum Jai too, but didn't have the leverage at the time.

This is only revenge, if he was serious he'd go after his own partners.and THAT will never happen.

Ahh, so now you are claiming that the Democrats and the former PM Abhisit were forced to include the BJT in their administration. That's nice, but no one forced PM Abhisit to include the BJT. The current government also had to build a coalition, yet the government either by sheer luck or some political smarts did not include what is now a massive liability. Had the BJT party been included in the current government, I believe you and the usual gang of PTP bashers would have been screaming about corruption and blaming PM Yingluck for activities that appear to have occurred during the previous military junta administration and that carried on into the Democrat administration.

I am not accusing PM Abhisit for the alleged corruption, but it is obvious, that the gentleman's political accuity was not very good. it seems the former PM's quest for power and political opportunism has come back to bite him in his buttocks.

Please note that Deputy PM Chalerm is not implicated in the corruption, nor are the PTP's own partners. The allegations rest in the little corner of the political landscape that have BJT, Democrat and military junta territorial markers.

Newin turned on Thaksin and said ' its over boss' then he scurried to that army barracks and cobbled together a facade for more military rule. Thaksin wants revenge on Newin and Sondhi (two that turned on him) and we must ask ourselves is this the first or the only shot across across the enemies bows. Newin was dumped early because he was not to be allowed to use PT immense popularity to increase his vote share. How many from the last government have now got a squeaky bum. Bring it on, bring em down

It seems to be the only choice.

I feel sorry for the PAD members...hard month to come and many will be killed by the criminal government.

Geriatric terrorists. Them army snipers have had no practice for a while. If its good for them red oiks its good for the yellow cronies. If Sondhi is serious and the yellows set up camp, take over airports, block up the city even burn buildings not one army trigger will be pulled.

I hope that the Thai people can now see what this man's (no he is not a man he is a despicable individual) and the PTP's priorities are.

The worst flood in 50 years and do they try to assist the people who are affected?

No! Thier number 1 priority is to get amnesty for a convicted criminal.

Shame! Shame! Shame!

What a nonsense comments. When the world was at war do you think respective governments did not talk about and plan for other things. Yes the floods are tragic but the world moves on. Sorry forgot the Dems and its cronies live in the past and want to keep it that way

I'm not exactly a fan of both sides and I think that bringing Thaksin back will not be in anyway beneficial to Thailand. It's a start of another crisis.

As a guest of the country and unable to vote I think it wise that Farangs should keep their views to themselves Big Brother is watching YOU !!!!

Wait...a...minute...... Are you implying that the government has English speaking experts reviewing comments made on ThaiVisa, and are preparing a blacklist to send us away ??? No problem, as I would not want to live in such a repressive country anyway. Also I will add my two satang, that Thaksin coming back will be the worst thing that ever happened to this country. And the Thai cabinet passing this endorsement in secret is standard behavior for this group of clowns..... :jap:

I dont have to worry about the boss coming home my colours are nailed. People like Sondhi and his mates will be kacking it 55555. I believed that the amnesty would be a trade for the guilty parties involved in the Rachaprasong crackdown but now it looks like they dont have anything to barter with. Taxi for Mark

I'm not exactly a fan of both sides and I think that bringing Thaksin back will not be in anyway beneficial to Thailand. It's a start of another crisis.

As a guest of the country and unable to vote I think it wise that Farangs should keep their views to themselves Big Brother is watching YOU !!!!

Barely veiled threat?

Hey Kopite what makes you think most of the anti Thaksin comments on here come from Farangs

Burma was an English colony.

It has millions of English speakers train by the British (the real McCoy).

Why not just hire Burmese English Teachers. Cheap and good.

Great idea but 'the loss of face' just imagine.. our poor neighbours teaching us.how dare they. Truth is they dont really want the masses talking English

I wonder why Jutaporn has not been indicted on accessory charges. These reds were only following his orders as one of the red leaders. During one of his democracy speeches which can be seen on Youtube he said "If you seize power from us, then we'll burn the whole country down. Burn it, burn everything, my brothers — Guarantee: Bangkok will turn into a sea of flames. Those of you who live in the country, it's OK if you cannot join us. If anything happens, just gather at your provincial or city halls. No need to wait for the order. Burn your city halls down to the ground."

Well said. That's one of the reasons why Jatuporn was in such a rush to push for elections, so he could hide behind his parliamentary immunity once again. That also was the reason why he lamented while in jail that he should be allowed to vote, that it was his right as a citizen (although 'normal' people serving terms in Thailand generally lose that right). Without the right to vote he could not have stood as an election candidate.

I am of the belief that these Udon convictions and the previous ones for arson will all be quashed under the 'amnesty'. The same amnesty that absolves Abhisit of his crimes and brings Thaksin home. Its just a show for the onlooking punters. Never believe what you see in Thailand, scratch the surface and see the muck underneath

They do not learn how to efficiently communicate by giving reasons and arguments. Thus, Thais generally don't take criticism well, as they tend to be shy about making comments, albeit constructively, because they did not want to offend their bosses or feared that their comments might easily be construed as a personal attack against others. This work culture does not support a spirit of teamwork or critical thinking.

I have been reading the Ministry of Educations literature with regards to the curriculum and the roles of teachers and students within setting and achieving those targets. When this gov. is still promoting Thai-ness (words use in the publication, not mine) how the hell do they hope to prosper. Along with nationalism and a large emphasis on religion too much time is wasted at school.

Thai-ness, to me, is part of the reason people dont question people that they perceive as of a higher social standing. Nobodys asking 'why' so dont expect an improvement anytime soon. Maybe a start to make wai-ing illegal apart from wai-ing certain groups -ie the monarchy, monks etc. The Wai is a class thing, the higher your social status is the higher up the wai will be. eg Wai friend on chest, big policeman wai about nose level. If I get to meet the president of USA I will shake his hand , come to think of it I shake the bin mans hand when I give him a tip at Christmas.

As long as the Red Shirts cannot accept a different opinion in their own villages, there will never be true democracy.

Indeed - I pity the poster that doesn't understand that *any* existing village declaring themselves 100% of *any* political leaning is a step back in a process towards democracy and respect for free speech.

So the 18 occasions of military rules and there is no guarantee it wont hit 19

Bravo! Richard in BKK. Excellent response to a typical uninformed, ego-centric poster. Your sarcasm in this sentence is perfect! "Clearly, you can not be an American and hold this view"

I am a retired Canadian living in BKK for the past 8 months and I am amused and dismayed daily by some of the self-righteous judgements and criticisms posted in this and other forums.

Thank you

Rojack - Happy in Bangkok

I believe people who write a post like this should be required to begin with, I am from *name of country* Clearly, you can not be an American and hold this view. In Hurricane Katrina 1,836 people died, and property losses exceeded $81 billion. Lets not even talk about the oil disaster in the Gulf. Perhaps the UK? OMG...where to begin?

The question is, "Who are you to judge?" By the way, Thailand began planning for this in the 1990's, developed some clever plans, implemented them...and frankly...they are working! Really, you have no idea what you are talking about. Instead of pointing the finger, why not instead "lift it" to help someone today?

The way Thailand has dealt with and dealing with this is a joke, No preparation, Politicians and beauarcrats who are not up to the their jobs, a country where image is everything, substance non exsistent

Welcome rojack, and good first post. Unfortunately, you are going to be more than just dismayed after reading the posts of the anti Govt posters here. As another poster mentioned, "the percentage of foaming-at-the-mouth Thaksin haters is far, far higher among TV members than it is amongst the Thai population." I actually suspect that this is not the case, but instead, these posters have nothing better to do with their time, being retired and bored out of their little minds, unable to properly integrate into the Thai society and thus spend the whole day digging up material to support their anti-Govt stance. A large proportion of TV members (myself included) could not be bothered to rise to the bait or to respond to their trolling posts.

Ver true bkkorupcountry. I wish I could believe it was only socially inept farangs posting anti gov rubbish but I suspect there maybe some well educated locals chipping in

I believe people who write a post like this should be required to begin with, I am from *name of country* Clearly, you can not be an American and hold this view. In Hurricane Katrina 1,836 people died, and property losses exceeded $81 billion. Lets not even talk about the oil disaster in the Gulf. Perhaps the UK? OMG...where to begin?

The question is, "Who are you to judge?" By the way, Thailand began planning for this in the 1990's, developed some clever plans, implemented them...and frankly...they are working! Really, you have no idea what you are talking about. Instead of pointing the finger, why not instead "lift it" to help someone today?

The way Thailand has dealt with and dealing with this is a joke, No preparation, Politicians and beauarcrats who are not up to the their jobs, a country where image is everything, substance non exsistent

Well said.

NO preparation? Not true. A joke? No, look at the hundreds of people going to flooded areas to help.

Although the authorities could have done more to prevent flooding, I am actually surprised they have been holding up this well. Keep in mind that 16 BILLION CBM of water is on the way South. The effort required to deal with that amount of water is a major challenge for any country.

I am from Norway, but have lived in Holland for most of my life. I have seen a little of what it takes to deal with massive amounts of water.

The critics here just hate the new government and undoubtedly feel that Thaksin is somehow ultimately responsible. It would not matter if Yingluck was able to walk across the troubled waters and make them evaporate, heal the lame and halt, and change water into wine, they would still complain that her brother told her to do that for some nefarious reason, and anyway Mark would have been able to do all that much earlier. For some unknown reason, the percentage of foaming-at-the-mouth Thaksin haters is far, far higher among TV members than it is amongst the Thai population. I suspect that where that horrific, evil monster Mr. T got off on the wrong foot with them is the early bar closings.

/ I Was not at all a fan of Thaksin while he was in power, but feel a certain amount of sympathy for him the more I learn about his enemies.

+1 it often seems like a scripted campaign to turn every thread, yes every thread, into a turkey shoot on Thaksin. Its as if somebody is funding the campaign of hatred. Most posters have seen thru this but I dont think the offenders have. Whatever anti Thaksin tripe is posted here what must be understood is that we cannot influence Thais as proved by the amount of times he keeps getting re-elected (regardless of convictions under a military, invisible hand controlled judiciary))

A few out of touch posters dont realise that the world and his dog want to be at Thaksins table, Every serious trading nation as sent somebody in unofficial or official capacity to meet the man yet many on here villify him, maybe its only a few posters with multiple id's, who knows.

How many elections has this man won maybe averaging 20,000,000 votes per time and yet people on here link Thaksin to red-to burning buildings-to corruption then the same people try to justify coups and the deaths of 90+ Thais. Well the guilty for the deaths have had a reprieve but only until the floods recede then you can bet when the truth is known we will still have the same people trying to twist it to Thaksin and defend the people who gave the orders. Makes for a fun day[/color]

What's interesting to me is, that so many people get up in arms, and rightfully so, about the LM laws and the lack of civilian oversight of the military. Invariably these are also Thaksin sympathizers. The irony is that the only party that pledged to reform these laws and policies was just voted out of office and the party they favor is pledging crackdowns on "abusers" of LM laws and of course is politicizing the military to an extent not seen in 20 years.

I think you will find that one of the very first things that the Abhisit government did was to substantially increase the maximum sentence for LM within months of taking office. Then we saw the sharp rise in using the law to attack political opponents as referred to in the original post. The LM and slander laws need at least reviewing to allow people to speak their minds, which can be done without offending the monarchy. I doubt if Thaksin will do a great deal especially with regard to slander laws, he will most probably need them to keep people quiet.