backtonormal

Should we assume the residents were told of this event and its potential repercussions BEFORE it happened, so that they could prepare?

Wasn't someone saying on here earlier today how well the government had managed the floods?

In the fullness of the time the opinion of the people (well the Thais that I speak to) believe the floods were stage managed by those that cant accept the Peauthai . Normally we would coup who we dont like but thaksins got a few nuts in the vice so they had to have an alternative. 5 agencies running the flood disaster, only have to buy 1 or 2 to hold the job up. As usual i will get slated but then again its hard to give full explanations without fear of handcuffs. Roll on freedom of speech

LOL@ the shop talk. A forensic autopsy or a full forensic post mortem examination is a true slice and dice exam with blood, tissue and fluid analysis. It is signed off on by a certified pathologist. A basic post mortem exam is the cursory exam undertaken to identify the corpse and to iindicate a most likely cause of death. There usually isn't fluid or tissue sampling, nor are all of he vital organs verified by examination and weighing. For example, when the Australian body builder had a mysterious death in the sauna, his Thai post mortem exam was not thorough. To the best of my knowledge, no one checked for the presence of steroids , growth hormones etc., all of which may have been contributing factors in the man's death. The report was a 1 pager and not a detailed autopsy. IMO autopsies inThailand. just don't measure up to inaernational standards. Time and time again this has been shown whenever foreigners meet their deaths in Thailand. Remember the kid that was shot in Pai? Or how about David Carradine's demise. The autopsies performed were not considered thorough by their critics and were dismissed as cursory post mortem exams.

None of the above addresses the fact that you claimed that a post mortem exam was not an autopsy. It is. Both terms have exactly the same meaning, and both terms can be used to describe a thorough process or one not so thorough.

Just loving how certain members are running around 'putting fingers into dykes' and diverting the real subject of this thread. The same posters who have ' whatever the weather' defended Abhisit to the end by mainly taking threads of course and turning every thread to an anti Thaksin turkey shoot.

Well theres news for you the truth is coming home to roost and you will not have enough fingers to prop up that puppet regime and its paymasters that just got obliterated in an election.

Once we have the cause of death (not that we dont already know..most where snipered not under direct physical threat) then we go back to what many have been saying for months....

Who gave the orders?

What where the orders?

Where the orders obeyed?

If not who disobeyed them?

And hey presto we have the guilty party. But the sad thing is the orders came from a lot higher than Mark but the poor smuck will carry the can.

PS. Amsterdam is the perfect foil for Thaksin bcos when you are bleating about him you are forgetting Thaksin and his sister

I reckon the law of unintended consequences will come into play here, the longer he is out of the country the weaker his position will become. I reckon events will overtake him. He has too many well connected and seriously powerful bitter enemies in Thailand, at the risk of stating the obvious, thats why he is not here. These enemies wont disappear and he knows it.

"These enemies wont disappear and he knows it." But they will certainly die before him, he can afford to wait.

Well the man is question is over ninety. Thaksin has been pencilled in for a job but thats for another time

Seems pretty obvious that the 'red shirt' military arm the 'black shirts, aka 'black angels', aka 'men in black'

were the perpetrators of violence and death along with the leaders of the 'red shirts' including mr T

asia times headline, "Unmasked: Thailand's men in black"

The govt at the time showed a lot of restraint, too much restraint if anything, allowing the 'red shirt' mobs to break laws and abuse civilians and businesses. The govt is tasked with enforcing the laws even with the use of deadly force.

Ryan Gaerity: "I've come here to create a new country for you called chaos, and a new government called anarchy. "

"Blown Away" (1994)

Asia Times Quote "They let us inside their secret world on one condition: if we took any pictures, they would kill us" all credibility for this story finished there. Not one image in the whole story just text. Biggest load of cr4p ever. The non return of over 2200 sniper bullets shows they were in a turkey shoot in those abhorrent live fire zones. It was murder and somebody will have to cop it

They're pretty crap shots.

Well watching some vids on youtube my thai colleague translated 'good shot hes down' snipering a thai citizen from 100 yards armed with an home rocket and no direct threat to any troops smacks of a shoot to kill policy. Dont worry soon the dirty washing will be hanging in the Thai wind and then hopefully blamed will be laid at the feet of the guilty but I doubt it. Abhisit and his sidekick the 'horriblew litle man' will bear most. Not fair really as they had little say in who shot who

Seems pretty obvious that the 'red shirt' military arm the 'black shirts, aka 'black angels', aka 'men in black'

were the perpetrators of violence and death along with the leaders of the 'red shirts' including mr T

asia times headline, "Unmasked: Thailand's men in black"

The govt at the time showed a lot of restraint, too much restraint if anything, allowing the 'red shirt' mobs to break laws and abuse civilians and businesses. The govt is tasked with enforcing the laws even with the use of deadly force.

Ryan Gaerity: "I've come here to create a new country for you called chaos, and a new government called anarchy. "

"Blown Away" (1994)

Asia Times Quote "They let us inside their secret world on one condition: if we took any pictures, they would kill us" all credibility for this story finished there. Not one image in the whole story just text. Biggest load of cr4p ever. The non return of over 2200 sniper bullets shows they were in a turkey shoot in those abhorrent live fire zones. It was murder and somebody will have to cop it

A little more research will show you that the original Asia Times was owned by non other than one of Thaksins arch enemies Sondhi. When it went under in 97 some of the journos created Asia Times online. Yes the same journos who showed the same political bias as sondhi. If it was not on the screen and in print it would only be suitable for rear end wiping. That whole story is a biased crock of lies.

Seems pretty obvious that the 'red shirt' military arm the 'black shirts, aka 'black angels', aka 'men in black'

were the perpetrators of violence and death along with the leaders of the 'red shirts' including mr T

asia times headline, "Unmasked: Thailand's men in black"

The govt at the time showed a lot of restraint, too much restraint if anything, allowing the 'red shirt' mobs to break laws and abuse civilians and businesses. The govt is tasked with enforcing the laws even with the use of deadly force.

Ryan Gaerity: "I've come here to create a new country for you called chaos, and a new government called anarchy. "

"Blown Away" (1994)

Asia Times Quote "They let us inside their secret world on one condition: if we took any pictures, they would kill us" all credibility for this story finished there. Not one image in the whole story just text. Biggest load of cr4p ever. The non return of over 2200 sniper bullets shows they were in a turkey shoot in those abhorrent live fire zones. It was murder and somebody will have to cop it

Lack of information as to who ordered the crackdown and the chain of command and orders were obeyed and if not who disobeyed them. The rest is irrelevant at this stage. Maybe a suggestion not to squeeze this pimple to hard because it may unearth the real power people of Thailand. Whatever the buck has to stop with somebody and some people would like the buck to stop just short of themselves so Abhisit will most probably carry the can for this lot

evrything heating up nicely and nobody has ever proved what side the black shirts were on.

So there just happened to be a camera pointed at the reported when he got killed....out of thousands of people.

and another camera pointed at the trajectories source.

footage of him being shot..believable. Then take note of entry and exit wounds = direction bullet came from, quite easy really. Now who gave the orders to shoot an innocent reporter doing his job. The footage is unlikely to have come from a Thai tv crew, they only reported what the cres told them to but 100s of foreign cameramen at the scene. This maybe the wedge the PT need to follow the chain of command if the army is found guilty of shooting him.

Police send Japanese cameraman's case to prosecutors

Police have already concluded the investigation report on the death of Japanese cameraman Hiro Muramoto, who was gunned down during the clash of red-shirt demonstrators and soldiers in Bangkok last year.

The report was forwarded to public prosecutors Wednesday afternoon.

Deputy Metropolitan Police Commissioner Maj General Anuchai Lekbamrung disclosed that the case was backed with evidence in the forms of still photos and video recordings.

-- The Nation 2011-12-13

14 months under Dem Government = no advance in investigation. 4 months under this gov and all the 2000 pages have been forwarded to consider a prosecution. Really which party has been hiding the evidence. Interesting times ahead.

Not what they say its what they dont say thats nearer the truth. Like the C in C of the army prior to the election. All over the airways telling the nation to vote for the good people. He knew Dems where going to get wasted and this was a last desperate plea. Maybe this statement is trying to prevent the naming and shaming of the individuals who sent heavily armed troops against mainly unarmed civilians. Why noy forget what happened last year, no more, lets get our dirty washing out high and the guilty, whatever side pay the highest price. No more cover ups by those with the ability to cover up. Under the 97 constitution the 2006 coup was illegal, let the instigators stand trial omce the constitution has been put back to the 97 version.

I'm sorry to copy my post from another thread, but it appears to have more relevance here:

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I was lucky enough to go to a gathering (impromptu party) in a self proclaimed red village south of Chiang Mai not long ago. I say 'lucky enough' because it gave me the opportunity to actually gain knowledge and experience of such places instead of making up stereotyped hysteria to fill the gaps in my understanding as you have done in your post.

It was a typical group of villagers - around 10 friends and family members who've all known each other since childhood. The talk was of premier league football and joking around at each other's expense. 2 were ex-army, and one was still doing his 2 years service.

Taking a quick look inside the house, I can't remember seeing any pictures of Thaksin although I wouldn't have been at all surprised if there were and I missed them. What there was in obvious abundance though were images of the King and several presumably famous old monks. Again, it seemed perfectly ordinary to me.

Back outside it turned out that 2 of the party were fairly staunch yellow-shirt supporters. I saw them having heated discussion with others in the group which at no point got rowdy or ill tempered. It seemed people could say what they wanted perfectly easily without intimidation and when all was said and done the drinking and joking continued.

There were a couple of jokes levelled at the 2 yellows there - like 'oh he's yellow shirt, no good' etc etc but it was always in jest and similar to other comments like 'he like Manchester United, he no good'. I had asked earlier about intimidation of yellows in a red village and was laughed at.

So all I can say is that the red shirt village I went to was basically the same in essence to any other rural Thai village I've ever been to.

If those people are the terrorists you and your red shirt-hating buddies on this forum think they are, perhaps you need to tell them instead of a bunch of disconnected farangs on a web board. Thinking about it though, maybe a bunch of disconnected farangs is actually your best audience - how could they disagree with you?

From where I was sitting, these reds (and a couple of yellows) in this red shirt village looked uncannily like very normal, fair minded and light hearted people just getting on with their lives. Which by the way seems a much more dignified pursuit than habitually spouting other people's blind rhetoric on an anonymous web forum.

========================

There was no evidence of the place being a 're-education' camp, boot camp, or a no-go area for those with yellow views.

Now if one of you red-haters goes to a red village (which you probably will never do for a lot of reasons), and find evidence of it being any one of those things, then please come post back your experiences.

The wife's village is not an "official" red shirt village, but it may as well be. If you vote for anyone other than PTP, they know and will harass you. Intimidation pure and simple. You can't even discuss politics there other than your love for PTP. You have to be very careful unless you praise Thaksin. A lot of money changes hands during the elections, as well as afterwards . This is a big deal for the villagers. Whoever has the most money get the votes.

The government should do something about this, but obviously won't.

The text in red can not be aimed at the PT in the recent election. The BUm Jai Thai are going to get disbanded based on the millions Newin chucked in. I like hanuman1 have been to a few gatherings and likewise have seen many pictures of the king and old buddhas , yes and Thaksin. It has always been believed if you support Thaksin you are disloyal to his majesty...what utter nonsense. You can admire, respect and love both without doing anything morally wrong. Rhetoric and propaganda fostered by the 'elite' press.

The people that spout this <deleted> still people the great unwashed still listen to them, they dont. Shame many ill informed forum posters listen and believe

If they done no wrong why are they afraid.????

Perhaps they are afraid of yet another Thai looking foolish on the world stage.

In this instance, for a politician to attempt to file a case for which he is not eligible to file.

.

Nothing can be as silly as being told by the head of interpol ' move along son' when he was asked to get that Thaksin fella on terrorist charges LMFAO

As long as our domestic justice system is still working

It has never worked.

Taking this kind of case to the international arena is exactly what Thailand needs.

A sentence od sanity amongst all this nonsense. As demonstrated recently when there was border skirmishes, Nobody wants outside interference from outside bodies because then the truth may prevail. To try to change all these threads (second post on here) to anti Thaksin is not working anymore and previous neutrals viewing this forum are now starting to realise.

Regardless of what happened, when last year, it is for me unconscionable for a gov't (any gov't) to use lethal force against its own citizens.

I hardly expect many people here on TVF to agree with that, but ask yourself how many people would have died if the Army had NOT used lethal force?

The government of most countries use lethal force against criminals every day. Sometimes those associating with the criminals get caught in the cross fire and sometimes innocents do too.

You cannot be taken seriously. Shooting nurses and medics was not crossfire they were TARGETTED. There is an apartment for Abhisit in Dubai. Current owner vacating shortly

There were reports of shooting from both sides that day. I doubt very much that nurses and medics were targeted by the army. What would have been the benefit of that?

Why should you doubt who they hot. Japanese reporter and all the world saw the Canadian pressman, who was already shot, pleading only to be shot again. You must ask which person had so much hatred for these Thai people that he would order a killing spree

Suthep, Prayuth and Abhisit should be handed over to the ICC.

Not Prayuth he was following orders. Now if a previous coalition mp, of the Abhisit regime claims he was made an offer he could not refuse then we must presume somebody cobbled together the previous administration. If we agree with that then its only a short step to correctly assuming that somebody, at this point not proven, gave orders to Abhisit in dealing with the unrest. So replace Prayuth with ??????

I am just a layman but isn't the fact that black uniformed AK47 armed in the crowd have something to do with it ?.

BUT the gov should have stopped the build up of stuff from the beginning, Police useless, don't know why/how they earn a living from the tax payer.

In any other place the mob would have been broken up in 12 hours.

Why not do what they do in other military controlled countries --- Egypt, Syria, Libya

What we should ask is 'Why would so many people face down rifles with fire crackers' what would make people face possible death. When you have had 3 successives governments, who you voted for removed by the army, the judiciary and the invisible hand threatening PT coalition mps with 'an offer they could not refuse' then we are at the route of the problem.

I read so much tosh from supposed Dem supporters on here it makes you cringe, they can defend the indefensible. Systematic beating down on the masses by the few brought us to this flashpoint, forget your Thaksins and Abhisits, people should look beyond these people and look to the real reasons why Thailand is at this point in its history.

It's good the police asked k. Abhisit and k. Suthep to drop by to answers a few questions. No doubt the two gentlemen will comply. I assume the statements of some other worthy gentlemen, like k. Jatuporn, k. Nattawut, Dr. weng, et at have been taken already?

In this case, which will see a (Pheu Thai) MP travel all the way to The Hague, the Netherlands to inquire about the case filed with the ICC on the 31st of January this year, anyone involved should, will and must tell their side of the story. Two foreign reporters killed, 91 death in total! We, the people, democracy minded, etc., etc., we have a right to know.

BTW those this include those killed by grenade lobbing fanatics, grenades which just by pure chance (of course) seemed to only targeted non-red-shirts?

Totally agree. Well done to this Pheu Thai MP who wants to get the truth. I am mostly keen on the findings of the deaths of the 13 soldiers who were murdered by armed insurgents, and for the ICC to find who was responsible for funding, leading and enciting this act of war against Thailand. Once the ICC rule on this then it will be very easy for the Thai government to be able to file the appropriate charges against those responsible.

Please send link to confirm 13 soldiers were killed at anytime during last years unrest

Regardless of what happened, when last year, it is for me unconscionable for a gov't (any gov't) to use lethal force against its own citizens.

I hardly expect many people here on TVF to agree with that, but ask yourself how many people would have died if the Army had NOT used lethal force?

The government of most countries use lethal force against criminals every day. Sometimes those associating with the criminals get caught in the cross fire and sometimes innocents do too.

You cannot be taken seriously. Shooting nurses and medics was not crossfire they were TARGETTED. There is an apartment for Abhisit in Dubai. Current owner vacating shortly

Regardless of what happened, when last year, it is for me unconscionable for a gov't (any gov't) to use lethal force against its own citizens.

I hardly expect many people here on TVF to agree with that, but ask yourself how many people would have died if the Army had NOT used lethal force?

I totally agree with you. The lids off the can of worms, the genie is out of the bottle but whatever the guilty ex gov members will not go to prison under an amnesty

Is it any surprise that there is now an investigation, since the appointment of the new national police chief who is related to Thaksin?

No, not a surprise.

But, that does not negate the need for a properly formed and constituted enquiry to establish who gave the orders to conduct operations the way they were conducted.

Somebody is accountable.

Somebody gave the instructions, orders and rules of engagement.

Maybe a group of people, it doesn't matter.

What does matter is that they should be known and held accountable.

An enquiry may well establish that it's perfectly Ok for the Government and military to use sharpshooters in crowd control and to target photographers, medics and passersby......

But it also may not.

It may also conclude that they were all shot by " dark forces" or itinerant Welsh rugby fans.

The point is the enquiry and how clear it is.

"engagement" is the key word. They were "engaging" with men that were shooting back at them.

proof of 'firing back'

While it was unclear whether or not the Army intended to murder civilians, what WAS CLEAR, was that armed Red Shirts were using whatever they had in their arsenal. It wasn't meant for defense, it was meant for offense. A man with a gun shoots a policeman, policeman shoots back.. I hope you don't argue that the policeman was at fault because that's what you're implying.

If you truly believe that the Army has a blood thirsty intention of killing unarmed civilians then there's not much that can persuade you to think otherwise.

I do not think the army set out intending to murder civilians and in fact I believe the operation was generally professionally conducted.I also believe there were violent elements within the Red shirt encampment, although their origin and paymasters remain mysterious.I believe there were however some appalling abuses by the army which resulted in the murder of many civilians.The army has consistently refused to cooperate in the investigations.I believe the HRW is the most credible report so far produced and as you suggest it identifies abuses on both sides.To date no investigation has been made of the role of politicians (Abhisit, Suthep etc) or senior army officers (Prayuth etc).It may be they would be exonerated but we will never know without a full and transparent inquiry.

Agreed. Those orders will have been put in writing and the receivers of those orders would have not carried out those orders without that paper, its called covering your rear end. There is a copy of those orders somewhere. This is simple ask the people in charge, Abhisit and Suthep to produce and follow the chain of command down to the end of the rifle. Maybe we have darker forces dictating those orders and a true transparent investigation would identify those forces (its not that most people dont know who the dark forces are)

Has Khun Sunai filed charges with the International Criminal Court yet? No? No surprise there.

Has Khun Sunai set a date for filing charges yet? No? No surprise there.

More hot air. Thailand doesn't like international legislative bodies poking around its very dirty closets.

Red Shirt Pheu Thai Party MP Sunai, and presumably with his Red Shirt European supporters in tow, plan to file the charges on Dec. 9th.

Zealots and uncritical supporters of the military apart, I don't suppose most balanced members are too alarmed at this development.All the evidence is that the initiative will not succeed but it is a useful reminder that the murder of civilians by the army cannot be wished away.

Red Shirt Apologists and Enablers aside, yes, it never hurts to be reminded that the Red Shirt instigators of violence have not been held accountable and that efforts to do so will likely not succeed.

.

Wrong was done on both sides undoubtedly but lets move to a neutral venue and present the evidence. This scares the pants of those that gave the orders. What were those orders, its a good starting point and if those orders were the catalyst for retaliation lets hear it. The story is out there but it appears that many are blustering to prevent the truth appearing. One side in this dispute has a long history, not years but decades of suppressing people with extreme violence. The CC of the army has already stated that if an investigation finds the army guilty he will take the blame, cant give you a link on here because not surprisingly this neutral forum does not print such nonsense.

Has Khun Sunai filed charges with the International Criminal Court yet? No? No surprise there.

Has Khun Sunai set a date for filing charges yet? No? No surprise there.

More hot air. Thailand doesn't like international legislative bodies poking around its very dirty closets.

Red Shirt Pheu Thai Party MP Sunai, and presumably with his Red Shirt European supporters in tow, plan to file the charges on Dec. 9th.

Zealots and uncritical supporters of the military apart, I don't suppose most balanced members are too alarmed at this development.All the evidence is that the initiative will not succeed but it is a useful reminder that the murder of civilians by the army cannot be wished away.

While it was unclear whether or not the Army intended to murder civilians what WAS CLEAR, was that armed Red Shirts were using whatever they had in their arsenal. It wasn't meant for defense, it was meant for offense. A man with a gun shoots a policeman, policeman shoots back.. I hope you don't argue that the policeman was at fault because that's what you're implying.

If you truly believe that the Army has a blood thirsty intention of killing unarmed civilians then there's not much that can persuade you to think otherwise.

I didn't read that..did I. over 2200 sniper rounds not signed back in. Now if we allow 1000 missing for souveniers were did the other 1000 go. Do you think they were taking pot shots at signs. People were targeted..who gave those orders.