Ferangled

What the hell is wrong with people on this forum. You waste your days arguing over who is worst - the reds or they yellows - they did this, well, they did that, she said this, she said that, he's good, he's bad. They started it.

Both sides are wrong, both sides have done illegal and damaging things to the country and both sides use each others illegal actions to justify their illegal actions. It's <deleted> madness.

Best post yet on this thread, says it all.

The usual suspects are so predictably quick to jump to the defence of their respective violent mobs and shady patrons, yet seemingly blind to the similarities they exhibit and the motivation behind them.

We might as well argue about which is worse to encounter whilst swimming a crocodile or a shark... I'm afraid that eating you is just the nature of the beast regardless of hue.

You can replace a True dish for about 1,500 baht or less installed.

True is charging up to 2,470 baht PER MONTH, not 350... by the way.

With incomprehensible packaging plans that often duplicate services,

but still charge more. Even their staffs have little understanding of the plans.

You seem to be buying into the line True is trying to use.

Forget the rights of a purchaser to market their content as they see fit,

but trying to leverage that content for free from another,

using the public good argument, if they can piss enough people off.

Sounds like classic Red Shirt intelectual property manipulation arguments.

Forget who owns the rights, we want it, give it to us now.

Will I be surprised that the rights of the content owners get taken from them for free,

TIT, not at all, but I doubt it will match the law, more likely, the loop holes bent another way,

the Thai way. Money talks.

You seem to have an axe to grind with both True and the red shirts, and I feel are deliberately miss representing "facts" here to hide the real issue. As others have stated - it is the right of the Thai people to watch free to air Thai national channels on any platform.

No company should have the right to "switch off" a national broadcast simply because they have failed to leverage money from their competitor for broadcasting rights to a competition that they are airing on channels that their competitor has an existing contract to broadcast...

If you buy a True receiver and dish you get free access to the "free content" with absolutely no subscription to True. I bought a True PVR receiver years ago that my wife uses to watch the free to air Thai content. It is 100% free. It is not 2450 baht a month.

I pay for a True subscription on a separate HD PVR receiver to view "paid content". The subscription costs are levied to pay for the 100s of channels that are not provided free to air eg. True sports, Discovery, HBO, Fox, Nat Geo, BBCE, Bloomberg, CNN, BBCW, CNBC, etc etc.

You'll find satellite subscriptions for such content costs similar in the UK & Europe. Actually to watch all of the English premiership games in England would cost considerably more as you would need full Sky subscription + additional bolt on packages (Sentana, Prem Plus etc). I'm not even sure that you can watch every single game even with these...

Is there an alternative service provider in Thailand that airs all the premiership football games, world news channels, main stream movie channels and provides HD content and the ability to record that HD content to HDD?

GMM have deliberately tried to hold True to ransom over Euro 2012, viewers be damned, by exploiting a legal loophole. They had no platform to air Euro 2012 on without True or the Thai free to air channels. The only dodgy business practices here are being demonstrated by GMM Grammy. This has been a crude way to force consumers to buy their receivers or miss out on the competition.

Although pretty irrelevant, you also seem to have your political ties mixed up a bit here, is it True or GMM that are sympathetic to a certain colour of shirt...?

On September 12 and 13, Thailand’s largest entertainment conglomerate GMM Grammy Public Company, bought over 32% of shares in Matichon and over 23% of shares in the parent company of the Bangkok Post, making it the largest shareholder in both enterprises. The Bangkok Post is one of Thailand’s two leading English-language newspapers and is widely read by the local international community, and Thailand’s well-educated elite. Matichon runs several of Thailand\’s leading Thai-language newspapers including their namesake paper, Matichon. GMM also reportedly plans to buy up at least an additional 43% of shares in Matichon. The total cost of yesterday\’s buying spree amounted to 2.7 billion baht ($US 66 million) The President of GMM, Mr. Paiboon Damrongchaitham, is known to have close ties with the Thaksin administration and his GMM company has often been used to do publicity for the administration.

Anyone with half a brain knows that the Constitutional Mock court has no power to rule. However it is to satisfy the neo fascists of the PAD. Fascists being it in brown or in yellow shirts are dangerous and have nothing with democracy. They hate it.

"Anyone with half a brain knows......" QED

The political agenda of Thailand’s PAD (People’s Alliance for Democracy) yellow shirt movement has always been explicit – fascism. In fact, they’ve publicly screamed their profoundly anti-democratic agenda so many times it would need a willful and deliberate act to ignore the explicit neo-fascism of the PAD. From wanting to “destroy democracy” through to “shutting down the country” to “cleansing Thailand of our enemies,” the PAD’s agenda is very clear and has been since at least 2008.

PAD thugs want dictatorship to replace democracy

So what kind of person or group would refuse to accurately describe the PAD as what they are?

First of all, it wasn’t the Hong Kong-based, entirely independent and highly respected Asian Human Rights Commission. This is what they said about the PAD when they shut down Bangkok’s airports a few years ago:

Nor was it Mithran Somasundrum in The Guardian who wrote a piece entitled “Shuffling towards fascism”. In this article Mithran examines comments by Thanong Khantong, the Nation’s editor, who supported the PAD’s 2008 protests and which Mithran feels exemplify the PAD’s political programme.

So there we have it – one of the region’s leading human rights groups calling the PAD fascist and one of the planet’s leading English-language newspapers joining in. Furthermore, we should never forget the very words that spill so readily from the PAD’s own lips.

Yet, strangely, in the last few days, as the PAD attempt to storm the Thai Parliament, once again threatening extreme violence in their avowed agenda to destroy Thailand’s struggling democracy, some people have chosen to completely ignore the evidence and stick to turning a blind eye to fascism.

GMM told me they will show the euro on channel 0[Zero] on their z-box,and if u have an antenna u can watch the euro on normal thai stations,but not via sat dish without z-box,I remember I wanted to see the champions league final on C-Band dish but could not,so for the time of the game my tv was black,but neighbor with simple antenna could watch the game

I have the greatest sympathy with you and it would appear that GMM have now backed themselves into a bit of a corner, having miss-informed customers and increased revenue off the back of this miss-information.

I'm sure that some legal firms will do very well out of this sham, True I believe will wriggle out ok and GMM may well get their wrists slapped. I sincerely doubt any of the paying customers who've been shafted will receive anything in the way of an apology, let alone compensation...

God I hate TRUE

IMO Their mission statement should be ..

"TRUE, bad products, high prices, we do what we want and give no customer service"

Lew...in my mind this is not True's fault it is Grammys for using True as a selling ploy for there boxes.

At the last minute True have said they will air the games and also maybe go to court to fight this!

Grammy seem to be the ones that have used the whole situation for there benefit....some folks cannot even get a reception after buying these boxes?

Why it is the fault of GMM?Before GMM bought the rights they invited True to jump into the boat,but True did not want to.Now after many subscribers complain True want to broadcast the euro too,but without paying for the rights to broadcast,NBct should shut down True if they even show 1 minute of the Euro,also the Uefa won't be to amused if True shows the Euro without paying.I guess the deal between Uefa and GMM is,,GMM has the exclusive rights to show the Euro.

Yes through there OWN network which they haven't got!

Bad business strategy isn't it ...tell everyone that you have bought the rights and that they will not be able to see it unless they buy there box and then they would have to buy a dish or... re-position True's dish.

Again GMM obviously did not consult there lawyers very well did they,i don't think UEFA will be very happy either but at this late stage they will not care about it as the money is in there bank,all GMM could do is not send the link to anyone!

Don't give them ideas...!

God I hate TRUE

IMO Their mission statement should be ..

"TRUE, bad products, high prices, we do what we want and give no customer service"

Lew...in my mind this is not True's fault it is Grammys for using True as a selling ploy for there boxes.

At the last minute True have said they will air the games and also maybe go to court to fight this!

Grammy seem to be the ones that have used the whole situation for there benefit....some folks cannot even get a reception after buying these boxes?

Why it is the fault of GMM?Before GMM bought the rights they invited True to jump into the boat,but True did not want to.Now after many subscribers complain True want to broadcast the euro too,but without paying for the rights to broadcast,NBct should shut down True if they even show 1 minute of the Euro,also the Uefa won't be to amused if True shows the Euro without paying.I guess the deal between Uefa and GMM is,,GMM has the exclusive rights to show the Euro.

I think True have simply played GMM, knowing full well that GMM had no platform (channel) to show the content on that True don't already have the right to broadcast.

In other words True knew that if GMM were going to bid, there was no point in True going in with them. UEFA won't care, they've been paid already by GMM.

Had GMM actually had their own channel to show the Euros on, there wouldn't be an issue and True would have had no right to dispute it (and I expect would have put in their own bid). As it is GMM have leased channels to air the Euros, but these are channels that True provides it's customers as a free service...

They are the free to air Thai terrestrial channels, so equally GMM have no right to prevent people watching them via standard terrestrial TV antennae. It just seems to be fairly naive business from GMM and shrewd dealings by True... although I'm sure GMM will make plenty from advertising anyway and reach a wider audience if the content does air on Truevisions.

As though it won't be available on streaming internet somewhere.

Check the other thread on this, of course it is and probably much better coverage than we'll get via True/ Grammy...

God I hate TRUE

IMO Their mission statement should be ..

"TRUE, bad products, high prices, we do what we want and give no customer service"

Lew...in my mind this is not True's fault it is Grammys for using True as a selling ploy for there boxes.

At the last minute True have said they will air the games and also maybe go to court to fight this!

Grammy seem to be the ones that have used the whole situation for there benefit....some folks cannot even get a reception after buying these boxes?

I think this is a good point. I personally hadn't even heard of Grammy / z box before this whole fiasco... what are they doing buying up rights to content without channels to air it on?

Leasing free to air channels to show content that you've paid for? Presumably they must make money from the advertising, so we'll have no half time comment, no manager/ players interviews, no pre-match build up. This will all become advertising space...

"TrueVisions would relay broadcast signal from a TV station that got the license to broadcast the matches."

If they are indeed relaying the broadcast from a TV station that has got the license to broadcast the matches then why the need to go to court?

"The source was quoted as saying TrueVisions decided to fight a court battle against GMM Grammy later."

This whole charade seems so unnecessarily ridiculous and served only to confuse viewers. The fact that it seems to only have been decided the day the Euros start make it even more of a sham.

Grammy has been able to sell a bunch of their boxes to people purely on the basis that they would't be able to watch the Euros on True... how about some compensation payout to customers?

It True relay the signal the would be breaking the copyright.

As for a refund - dream on!

Why dream on?I bought the z-box because of the euro2012,if I knew I don't need z-box I was not gonna buy it,and I guess I'm not the only one,also I guess Thais bought the z-box too because of the euro2012,so we have to wait and see if GMM will go to court,if not GMM will have to pay compensation

I'm afraid Jay is probably fairly accurate in his assessment!

I'm very glad I didn't buy a Zbox, but am quite sure 100s have like you, believing that was the only way to readily get the Euros... I personally know quite a few bars that did as the loss of revenue from not showing the games was too much to risk for them.

Personally I think both True and Grammy have acted like a couple of school children and we'd all be much better off if they were force-ably closed down, paving the way for a more customer service focused company to take over, who might actually show an interest in what their customers want to see, listen to complaints, have transparent pricing plans etc.

Dream on! TiT!

"TrueVisions would relay broadcast signal from a TV station that got the license to broadcast the matches."

If they are indeed relaying the broadcast from a TV station that has got the license to broadcast the matches then why the need to go to court?

"The source was quoted as saying TrueVisions decided to fight a court battle against GMM Grammy later."

This whole charade seems so unnecessarily ridiculous and served only to confuse viewers. The fact that it seems to only have been decided the day the Euros start make it even more of a sham.

Grammy has been able to sell a bunch of their boxes to people purely on the basis that they would't be able to watch the Euros on True... how about some compensation payout to customers?

Just to add my twopence worth on Thaiexpat TV... I'm subscribed, software only, working like a charm. I'm planning to use it on a month by month basis for now but very impressed with the streaming quality and consistency.

Also customer service very good, what with replies on here and quick response to tickets raised on the website. Nice one guys, a refreshing change from True, long may you stay in business!

Role on HD content, a few more channels and I may have to kiss True goodbye altogether, at least until Premiership starts up again!

What ISP do you use and what speed?

I've tried on 3x different ISPs now, working well on all 3.

TOT fiber 20/2 (actually 20-30mb DL domestic but only c.1mb international)

3BB Business 8/1 (actually only getting c.6mb DL domestic but strangely c.2mb international, quicker than TOT fiber!)

3BB Home 4 (actually getting 6mb, same as the Business line with similar international speeds!) This is the cheapo 590 bt a month package and it's great, but it's a brand new line/ junction box so I expect varies depending where you are and how many people you are "sharing" with down your street...

As it's based on local servers (this is the key point) most ISPs should be good, domestic DL speeds are usually fine, it's when you go international they drop right off...

Just to summarise your service, you are bringing in UK content to Thailand via internet line, then distributing via servers in Thailand? Have you actually paid the licensing rights to distribute this content? My only issue with legality is that I wouldn't want to spend 8,000 baht, start subscription only to find that you've been shut down a few months later...

BAM !!

This is the most important question.

At least with the software option, if the service gets canned, you can simply cancel the subscription but if you've done 8 large on the set-top box, won't you just be left with what will be little more than an expensive paperweight?

Understood on your skepticism over how our service will fair over the long term, in terms of being taken down or loss in quality with high demand usage. I can only really say, its not going to be an issue given the way in which we have it all setup. There would have been no point investing a considerable amount of money into something if we were not massively confident in making a long term business model out of. We are not a dodgy VPN or proxy based website that one day we are working, the next day we're gone. If you still have doubts, then just use the software player on a month by month package and invest in the hardware once you are happy with everything.

Thanks for the reply, fair answer, that would seem to be the best approach.

I think this is my fifth post on this thread, so i'm signing off / bored with it now - general advice : why not read right through every post on a thread from the start before posting anything ? So, yes, the set-top Box for thaiexpattv is just shy of 8,000 Bt, but you don't need to go that route. As i already explained, AND provided the live link to show - you can just download their software in the form of a Zip file, get that onto your machine, ( pc or laptop running Windows - not Mac ) and watch Brit channels in reasonable quality on that machine for 600 Bt a month, payed via Paypal and cancellable any time. ( So they say.) No box required. I tried the 2-day trial, and the visual & audio quality was far better than the rubbish i get from 'Big Cable' locally. But as i said before - whether it's worth having any live-streamed service for a tv schedule that goes out 6 or 7 hours adrift meaning it's through the night here - up to you ! Most content on Brit tv can be downloaded soon after broadcast from 'thebox' Free - but you do need to be invited - world membership pegged at about 100,000 maximum. In reply to anyone who might imagine i'm connected with thaiexpattv in some way - 100% wrong.

Finally someone who understands that the system is NOT expensive if you want to go the route of only having a software player subscription. The set top box is expensive as its brand new custom made technology. (My first DVD player was 400GBP back in 1999). The set top box is a stand alone remote control unit capable of 1080P HD streaming & once the general user base of Thai Expat TV is able to handle the 15-20MB connection needed for HD streaming, we will be offering a full HD package, on top of the forthcoming US channels + on demand content. So although it seems an expensive option now, it really won't be in the long term with the future services.

Also for every channel currently available 'live' there is a +6 and +18 (12/24hr) delay stream to catchup on any missed 'live' shows, so it still offers the user a good range of options right now for viewing UK TV content far superior to anything else available in Thailand right now.

I for one understand your point re: the hardware but a similar product would be the apple tv which is much cheaper (I understand apple may be a smidgeon larger hence profit margins etc!) but couldn't you use a jail broken Apple TV for your service rather than this dedicated hardware?

Is the content in anyway legal?

And can you guarantee that service will be available for live events, when DL speeds will certainly dip?

Thanks.

Any of these types of IPTV systems including Apples involve closed source software which is impossible to hack (right now), added to the fact its only linked to a single user account and if subscriptions are not met, then the content is not available to that specific device. Apple as you say is a much larger company (one of the worlds biggest, if not THE biggest). At some point we can offer our boxes at a similar price, but right now 7,999THB is the best we can possibly do. Apples boxes are essentially act as a conduit to sell content at a very expensive rate (120THB per library title or 150THB per new release movie - TV shows around 100THB). We offer a very good service for a resonable cost in comparrison, plus Apple TV is not available in Thailand nor is any other service as high quality for viewing UK TV currently in Thailand.

The content is legal compared to using a VPN or proxy to view the same content via any other internet source in Thailand.

We can guarantee that service will NOT be effected due to high demand during large sporting events or other such broadcasts. Our infrastructure is emmense.

Thanks for the reply and understood regarding Apple TV pricing and content, although I was under the impression that they did actually work in Thailand.

Could you for example use a netbook running your software as an alternative to your hardware? I picked Apple TV as I have seen one working as a general media server as well as giving access to online content, I imagine you could achieve the same using a windows netbook running your software as well as XBMC or similar...

Just to summarise your service, you are bringing in UK content to Thailand via internet line, then distributing via servers in Thailand? Have you actually paid the licensing rights to distribute this content? My only issue with legality is that I wouldn't want to spend 8,000 baht, start subscription only to find that you've been shut down a few months later...

I think this is my fifth post on this thread, so i'm signing off / bored with it now - general advice : why not read right through every post on a thread from the start before posting anything ? So, yes, the set-top Box for thaiexpattv is just shy of 8,000 Bt, but you don't need to go that route. As i already explained, AND provided the live link to show - you can just download their software in the form of a Zip file, get that onto your machine, ( pc or laptop running Windows - not Mac ) and watch Brit channels in reasonable quality on that machine for 600 Bt a month, payed via Paypal and cancellable any time. ( So they say.) No box required. I tried the 2-day trial, and the visual & audio quality was far better than the rubbish i get from 'Big Cable' locally. But as i said before - whether it's worth having any live-streamed service for a tv schedule that goes out 6 or 7 hours adrift meaning it's through the night here - up to you ! Most content on Brit tv can be downloaded soon after broadcast from 'thebox' Free - but you do need to be invited - world membership pegged at about 100,000 maximum. In reply to anyone who might imagine i'm connected with thaiexpattv in some way - 100% wrong.

Finally someone who understands that the system is NOT expensive if you want to go the route of only having a software player subscription. The set top box is expensive as its brand new custom made technology. (My first DVD player was 400GBP back in 1999). The set top box is a stand alone remote control unit capable of 1080P HD streaming & once the general user base of Thai Expat TV is able to handle the 15-20MB connection needed for HD streaming, we will be offering a full HD package, on top of the forthcoming US channels + on demand content. So although it seems an expensive option now, it really won't be in the long term with the future services.

Also for every channel currently available 'live' there is a +6 and +18 (12/24hr) delay stream to catchup on any missed 'live' shows, so it still offers the user a good range of options right now for viewing UK TV content far superior to anything else available in Thailand right now.

I for one understand your point re: the hardware but a similar product would be the apple tv which is much cheaper (I understand apple may be a smidgeon larger hence profit margins etc!) but couldn't you use a jail broken Apple TV for your service rather than this dedicated hardware?

Is the content in anyway legal?

And can you guarantee that service will be available for live events, when DL speeds will certainly dip?

Thanks.

Wow! I have been reading all these replies on here and it seems that everyone has forgotten what the yellow shitrs did to Thailand and to the Parlament buildind and grounds? Am I right? Tell me what country has 100% uncorrupt government! Can you?????? So stop complaining and go with the tide.

Only dead fish go with the tide.

And of course a Red Tide causes dead fish, so there you go.

Yes and red snapper is a fish and tastes awesome when dead and bbq'd....

I think this is my fifth post on this thread, so i'm signing off / bored with it now - general advice : why not read right through every post on a thread from the start before posting anything ? So, yes, the set-top Box for thaiexpattv is just shy of 8,000 Bt, but you don't need to go that route. As i already explained, AND provided the live link to show - you can just download their software in the form of a Zip file, get that onto your machine, ( pc or laptop running Windows - not Mac ) and watch Brit channels in reasonable quality on that machine for 600 Bt a month, payed via Paypal and cancellable any time. ( So they say.) No box required. I tried the 2-day trial, and the visual & audio quality was far better than the rubbish i get from 'Big Cable' locally. But as i said before - whether it's worth having any live-streamed service for a tv schedule that goes out 6 or 7 hours adrift meaning it's through the night here - up to you ! Most content on Brit tv can be downloaded soon after broadcast from 'thebox' Free - but you do need to be invited - world membership pegged at about 100,000 maximum. In reply to anyone who might imagine i'm connected with thaiexpattv in some way - 100% wrong.

Sorry to ask, but what is the "box" and how does one get an invite?

Thanks for your previous reply, the link worked got the zip file but my free trial expired before I got a chance to try it out!

To be honest I think for the costs vs content perhaps a spoof VPN iPlayer solution or UK sky account/ slingbox might be a better solution... although back to the issue of international DL speeds from Thailand...

True never has and never will allow us to view anything for free. End Of Story.

I agree that they're a bunch of scamming ****** but you can actually use their service completely legally and for free.

If you purchase one of their receivers rather than renting as most do, you have access to all the free to air content without any subscription; which is why it's so bloody ridiculous that we're not allowed to watch Euro 2012 on what is effectively a free service!

This after all the cock ups they've made with other major sporting events, will they never learn and never be held accountable for their complete lack of customer service?

"GMM Z had to encrypt the Euro 2012 programme to prevent satellite-dish owners in neighbouring countries from being able to view it."

Total tosh, the terrestrial signal is not encrypted and who in their right mind would view Thai sat from a neighbouring country; you'll find most do the reverse because the neighbouring countries have far better, cheaper sat providers!

Malaysia would be a case in point, do True not realise how much business they lose because their service is so inferior to that of their neighbours? Much cheaper, better content and no stupid fiascos every time a major sporting event takes place...

The next outcry will be the Olympics, as we find out that only feather weight boxing and table tennis get aired because that's all Thailand is competing in and therefore all that anyone in Thailand could possibly be interested in...

Here in Thailand and your talking who is most bad.

I would have a FAIRLY honest top ten or so of baddies here. T.S family, red shirts, greedy M.Ps, police, some top Thai companies, yellow shirts, True,TOT,TAT, government contrators(many) AOT, King Power, Near all local government voted officers. Posters sure can add to that list. Without T.S. and family, red shirts, Yellow shirts would maybe NOT exist. You decide who are the main offenders are. I am neutral with nothing to gain. We all can see you are entrenched on the rose coloured side, and see no evil. Sorry for your viewpoint. I know your not gonna like mine.

Worst and no I don't believe that is the current trend of thought, although I do have some sympathy with your viewpoint.

Currently opinion seems to divide roughly into two camps, those completely blind to the wrongs committed by the opposition but staunchly critical of all things Thaksin/ red, and those sceptical of both sides, who see each as pretty much as bad as the other.

I don't see many posts staunchly supporting Thaksin or the actions of the current administration but do see any posts slightly critical of the opposition or defensive of the Government as being taken as such...

Nobody i think is blind to the the wrongs committed by the opposition - as posts on here show every day - it is just that this is how you choose to label people who don't go along with your history revisionism that seeks to attribute the same level of seriousness to completely different events.

Case in point!

Sorry, please insert ...those ever so slightly blinkered... in place of blind

Similarly how much less bloodshed we would have seen in 2010, had the demands of the reds been met so readily rather than being met with armed suppression?

Remember they simply wanted the opportunity for the Thai people to vote for their own Government, not forcibly instate their own leader...

Did you forget they were offered early elections, but instead refused them as it was in a few months time and not immediate *RIGHT NOW* - as it happened they got their new elections but had to wait a lot longer... so i wonder how much less bloodshed there would have been had they gracefully accepted the Government giving in to their demands?

Lets face it, the Red were itching for a fight then... much as they are right now

We could go back and forth for days on this but I'm afraid your point is rather mute:

"The PAD's sieges and protests ended after the Constitutional Court dissolved the PPP"

Their demands were met and Abhisit was placed in power.

Not exactly the same response was it? They weren't told "chill out, wait a few months and we promise to step down and hold elections", neither were they shot at by the army.

Here in Thailand and your talking who is most bad.

I would have a FAIRLY honest top ten or so of baddies here. T.S family, red shirts, greedy M.Ps, police, some top Thai companies, yellow shirts, True,TOT,TAT, government contrators(many) AOT, King Power, Near all local government voted officers. Posters sure can add to that list. Without T.S. and family, red shirts, Yellow shirts would maybe NOT exist. You decide who are the main offenders are. I am neutral with nothing to gain. We all can see you are entrenched on the rose coloured side, and see no evil. Sorry for your viewpoint. I know your not gonna like mine.

Worst and no I don't believe that is the current trend of thought, although I do have some sympathy with your viewpoint.

Currently opinion seems to divide roughly into two camps, those completely blind to the wrongs committed by the opposition but staunchly critical of all things Thaksin/ red, and those sceptical of both sides, who see each as pretty much as bad as the other.

I don't see many posts staunchly supporting Thaksin or the actions of the current administration but do see any posts slightly critical of the opposition or defensive of the Government as being taken as such...

By "objecting vehemently" do you mean taking the capital city hostage and threatening to burn it down if parliament wasn't immediately dissolved? Cos i don't recall them doing that. You must mean some other sort of "objecting vehemently".

No, quite clearly there are many different ways to object vehemently...

The PAD formally renounced non-violence and vowed bloody revenge. In November, the PAD blockaded Parliament prior to a crucial legislative session, used hijacked public buses to take control of the government's provisional offices at Don Muang Airport, and seized control of Suvarnabhumi International Airport. The PAD also threatened to lay siege to the seaports of the Eastern Seaboard.The PAD's sieges and protests ended after the Constitutional Court dissolved the PPP, banned its leaders from politics, and Army Commander Anuphong Phaochinda pressured many PPP MPs to defect to the Democrat Party and elect Abhisit Vejjajiva as Premier. PAD co-leader Kasit Piromya was appointed Foreign Minister in the new government.

I wonder how much more bloodshed we would have seen if the CC hadn't stepped in to offer power to the violent PAD mob?

Similarly how much less bloodshed we would have seen in 2010, had the demands of the reds been met so readily rather than being met with armed suppression?

Remember they simply wanted the opportunity for the Thai people to vote for their own Government, not forcibly instate their own leader...

At the height of the sieges, the PAD openly stated that the only person they would accept as Premier was Abhisit.

Seems entirely democratic and reasonable to me!

Citing the claimed failure of popular democracy in Thailand, the PAD suggested constitutional amendments that would make Parliament a largely royally appointed body. The Asian Human Rights Commission has noted of the PAD and their agenda that, "although they may not describe themselves as fascist, have fascist qualities." It has openly called for the military and Thailand's traditional elite to take a greater role in politics.

A strange stance for those that call themselves democrats...

This seems totally ridiculous, True show the free to air Thai terrestrial channels - you can watch these with no subscription to True but using a True satellite dish and True receiver, meaning True are making no money by broadcasting these channels.

GMM Z chief executive officer Thana Thienachariya said he believed that most of the 2 million TrueVisions subscribers also have conventional TV antennas, which would enable them to view the tournament.

I for one don't, I have Truevisions HD PVR for the main TV room and have a non-subscription True PVR for free content, run out to all other TVs. Why would you have a terrestrial antenna when you have a dish and receiver that provide all of these channels, for free, but better quality?

What happens if there is a national incident in Thailand during one of these games and the Government wish to broadcast a national warning? All True subscribers miss out?

When the BBC or ITV win the rights to show any sporting events these are still viewable via Sky, who show the free to air English terrestrial channels. What is the difference here?

Considering the huge revenues made from advertising, subscription fees should be abolished anyway - the advertisers want to hit the largest audience possible and pay according to viewing figures, more viewers = more money, irrespective of subscription fees.

The content costs pale into insignificance against the advertising revenue. All content should be free and available to all based purely on the fact that the advertisers will pay to reach a wider audience. We shouldn't have to pay for the privilege of providing an additional source of income through advertising to the content providers.

Yunla, you simply turned Worawut's comments around, noting that red shirts were familiar with causing the same chaos he alluded to, Carra pointed out that the reds aren't the only ones capable of forming a mob and causing chaos, the yellows have considerable experience of this to.

I note that you got a response to your question but chose to ignore mine. Do you think the Dems will patiently wait for the next general elections?

Sorry but your answer of "they will have no choice but to step down" & "remains to be seen" was not an answer to my question. I know that when voted out they have to go out, and I know that the next election is in the future and remains to be seen. I was asking if they will surrender power easily and swiftly with grace and courtesy as is the diplomatic behaviour of statesmen for example Abhisit. You opinion on this as yet unprovided, as is Carra's who posted at me then didn't respond to my reply.

I will nonetheless answer your question, you will notice I am suggesting PTP are avoiding parliamentary debate and trying force bills through blindly, with utterly despicable lines from PTP's leader like "I haven't read the bills yet but I'm sure they are the best for everybody ....and you should all accept them". This behaviour of Yingluck and PTP as a whole is infact anathema to the democratic system of passing laws by egalitarian consensus, beckons to autocracy and seeks to maintain control by any means - except for the very means of democratic debate and consensus policymaking. If the PTP continue to abuse the system of government that they have been granted by the electorate, they are open to retribution by the social failsafes that protect that very system from abuse.

If PTP stop their undemocratic behaviour in parliament, stop blanking the Opposition, stop hiding away from transparent debate (especially Yingluck) and openly debate these bills which are the root problem here, I'm sure they will still be in office at the arrival of the next election. If the PTP continue to abuse and trample on the parliamentary process, they should be and maybe will be removed by the systems that are enshrined to protect that parliamentary process - the same as they would be in older more established democracies. I think that answers my views on where this is all going.

Again my apologies Yunla, I thought I had answered your question but understand that you don't accept my reply. I'll have to consult my crystal ball and try again. Here is my original reply again as you seem to have missed it amongst the anti-red rants...

I'm pretty sure that any party that lost a general election would have little choice but to step down, whether or not they would do so as eloquently as Abhisit remains to be seen... of course we're talking about something that's not scheduled until 2015 is it?

In summary of your response, as you seemed to have missed out any actual conclusion, you believe the Dems will not patiently wait for the next General election, as you expected PTP to do whilst Abhisit was in power?

I guess what's good for the goose isn't for the gander...

I guess the answer would really depend on whether or not they were actually voted out of office doesn't it?

I'm sure whatever the results would be, they would argue that they weren't voted out.

Take the way that they had no qualms whatsoever at how Somchai was able to stand up and replace Samak as PM, via parliamentary processes, but when Abhisit replaces Somchai, via the exact same process, suddenly it is deemed completely unfair and Abhisit is told to stand down immediately or face the destruction of the capital city. Yes i appreciate the reasons why they didn't like the way Abhisit became PM, with outside influences involved and a perception that he lacked a mandate, but it's hardly like there weren't outside influences involved in Somchai's promotion either, and however they felt, Abhisit was the legitimate PM, so they should have accepted that and spent their time regrouping and campaigning for the next election, which wouldn't have been a long wait - of course would have been an even shorter wait had they accepted Abhisit's offer of early elections - but that wasn't good enough - much better they felt to spend their time causing complete anti-democratic mayhem.

Wishful thinking to ever expect good grace from these people, no matter what the circumstances.

I note you chose to completely ignore the fact that the other side had no qualms in using this very same process to instate Abhisit, but had objected so vehemently when used previously to instate Somchai!

There is blatant hypocrisy on display by both sides here. The stark difference for me remains that Abhisit has never won a general election, while Yingluck and the PTP have.