Ferangled

Please give details of this criminal act of perjury. Far too much mud slinging on here and impossible to tell fact from fiction without evidence.

Here is the closing of the perjury case against Yingluck. Basically they decided that she lied in court during Thaksin's asset concealment case, but for some weird reason they decided not to charge her.

http://www.thaivisa....p-shareholding/

Thank you.

So OzMick is simply engaging in slander against the Prime Minister "Yingluck has already committed at least one criminal act (perjury)", as in fact there was no charge, no case. The investigation was dropped, she wasn't charged and never went to court because under the law at that time no offence had been committed.

The Department of Special Investigation has dropped its investigation against Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra on the grounds for lack of cause to suspect a criminal offence.

That's right. Giving evidence in court and lying your Rs off is NOT perjury if your name is Shinawatra. Actually the quote should have been "lack of motivation to suspect a criminal offense" which is quite common in lackeys and sycophants.

Yes Mick, quite clearly the Shinawatra family are above the law.... explains why Thaskin was never convicted of anything, never had his assets stolen seized and didn't flee the country...errr... selective reasoning perhaps?!

Please give details of this criminal act of perjury. Far too much mud slinging on here and impossible to tell fact from fiction without evidence.

Here is the closing of the perjury case against Yingluck. Basically they decided that she lied in court during Thaksin's asset concealment case, but for some weird reason they decided not to charge her.

http://www.thaivisa....p-shareholding/

Thank you.

So OzMick is simply engaging in slander against the Prime Minister "Yingluck has already committed at least one criminal act (perjury)", as in fact there was no charge, no case. The investigation was dropped, she wasn't charged and never went to court because under the law at that time no offence had been committed.

The Department of Special Investigation has dropped its investigation against Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra on the grounds for lack of cause to suspect a criminal offence.

Chief Thaksin Advisor Now Yingluck's Guru

So can we now expect Yingluck to visit the opening of the London Olympics and whilst there she will be ousted by a Military coup? Or perhaps she will be encouraged to engage in activities that will attract criminal charges, or both maybe?

Yingluck has already committed at least one criminal act (perjury), but it seems members of a PTP government do not attract criminal charges - not in their term of office at least.

Please give details of this criminal act of perjury. Far too much mud slinging on here and impossible to tell fact from fiction without evidence.

Unless you're claiming that all the prostitutes who were daughters of poor farmers, were there because they were forced to, your statement is somewhat lacking. Don't you think it's possible that the women were there because being a prostitute earns a lot more money than selling trinkets on the streets? Get back to reality, Thailand is a country where most people strive to get out of being poor through whatever opportunity that presents itself like corruption, drug dealing, prostitution, smuggling animals etc. We're not in fairy tail land where you can picture some rich pimp rounding up poor helpless women into prostitution. There are however, instances of under aged girls being sold for prostitution by their families, but ones that are adult have choices. So how many rampant under age brothels do you see in Thailand?

Quite clearly I wasn't but don't let that stop you rant on randomly.

I was pointing out in direct reply that Chuwit's "massage" parlours weren't the honourable Thai massage establishments that Yunla had in mind "Thai massage is an ancient profession that dates back thousands of years" and that in fact he had amassed a fortune off the backs of illegal prostitutes, a great number from the poor, rural north of the country.

I'm not sure where you are going with your under age brothels but I'll have to defer to your evidently superior knowledge on that one. Thanks for your input.

Yea if you watched the news, you might be enlightened some time, just passing on my superior knowledge to you, no need to thank me.

"Paint it however you like Yunla, Chuwit made billions of baht off the backs of the daughters of farmers, sold into prostitution."

You self righteous view that prostitutes are being exploited instead of them choosing to be there is what I'm arguing against. Chuwit was a business man, he set up a "massage" parlor because it was a big business. He opened up a place for women to work at. I don't agree with it and neither do you but don't fool yourself into thinking that they were there against their will.

As for Chuwit, one way Thai people can repent is to do good for society and his way of doing this is to reveal illegal casinos. Whether or not he's truly practicing this, you'd have to get into his head but I don't see why you would condemn him forever.

Self Righteous? Are you looking in a mirror?! I have obviously hit a nerve here.

Ok let's play your game, no prostitutes working in prostitution are ever exploited, no poor farmers daughter has ever worked in prostitution in Thailand and they certainly don't make up the majority of sex workers here, no-one ever pays any Thai person money to provide girls to work in the sex industry, in fact working in prostitution is actually the childhood aspiration for most of these working girls in Thailand. It's their dream job, they love having sex for money, kicking most of that money back to their pimp boss, and are quite content giving "freebies" to any passing policemen that their pimp boss needs to impress/ silence.

Does that sit better with your conscience? Could you explain what relevance that actually has to any of the points raised here?! You do realise prostitution is illegal in Thailand?

As for me condemning Chuwit forever, that's your self-righteous indignation kicking in, it's not a view I have ever expressed. Again thanks for your input, hopefully you can sleep better tonight...

History is full of heroic massage parlour tycoons? Really?

I love the way you guys will get behind anyone, no matter how dubious their morality, if their agenda fits your own... it shows real...err... what's the word? Moral fibre? No... hypocrisy.

Thai massage is an ancient profession that dates back thousands of years. Its certainly been around these parts a lot longer than you or I have. Hypocrisy is a lot nicer word than what could be used to describe people visiting a foreign land and condemning its ancient ways.

I said history is made of heroic figures, and Chuwit's actions are in my opinion courageous just like slaying Medusa and all her evil little wizards too.

Actually the last time I saw Chuwit he was making public the flood-related crimes of looting and mismanagement of the relief supplies etc. which also put him in the line of fire from the noble souls who steal relief equipment from a flood-stricken country. I immediately decided he was very heroic in his wellington-boots.

You are hilarious Yunla. So now Thai soapies and the exploitation of poor rural women is an ancient Thai way above outside criticism, a profession that should be revered and accepted as an ancient Thai way of life?! Thai massage is indeed an ancient part of Thai culture, clearly quite different to the modern massage parlours and soapies acting as fronts for brothels.

I would agree in so far as prostitution is certainly the oldest profession in the book. Exploiting the female members of poor, rural families to amass a great fortune however is not a profession that I see as an ancient, revered and integral part of Thai culture above outside criticism. I'll leave that for those with selective reasoning and a specific agenda to push...

Paint it however you like Yunla, Chuwit made billions of baht off the backs of the daughters of farmers, sold into prostitution. In the past he professed he had no idea what really went on in his "massage parlours", since he has admitted that they were in the business of prostitution and regularly gave out freebies to secure police favours.

Your comments about Medusa and wizards lost me somewhat, I can't see the relevance when discussing the utter hypocrisy of someone that promotes a pimp as some sort of national hero and purveyor of ancient Thai wares but is so vehement in their criticism of others engaging in what most would consider far less damaging crimes.

I understand that gambling is illegal in Thailand but then so is prostitution and both are rife here. Mind you only one of these illegal activities has a government run legal version for the masses to enjoy... that too smacks of utter hypocrisy.

Unless you're claiming that all the prostitutes who were daughters of poor farmers, were there because they were forced to, your statement is somewhat lacking. Don't you think it's possible that the women were there because being a prostitute earns a lot more money than selling trinkets on the streets? Get back to reality, Thailand is a country where most people strive to get out of being poor through whatever opportunity that presents itself like corruption, drug dealing, prostitution, smuggling animals etc. We're not in fairy tail land where you can picture some rich pimp rounding up poor helpless women into prostitution. There are however, instances of under aged girls being sold for prostitution by their families, but ones that are adult have choices. So how many rampant under age brothels do you see in Thailand?

Quite clearly I wasn't but don't let that stop you rant on randomly.

I was pointing out in direct reply that Chuwit's "massage" parlours weren't the honourable Thai massage establishments that Yunla had in mind "Thai massage is an ancient profession that dates back thousands of years" and that in fact he had amassed a fortune off the backs of illegal prostitutes, a great number from the poor, rural north of the country.

I'm not sure where you are going with your under age brothels but I'll have to defer to your evidently superior knowledge on that one. Thanks for your input.

An interview with your hero...

Thanks for the links. From what I was reading there, they were upmarket massage parlours, with full contact and optional sex. Its still a world away from most prostitutes who get paid less and work in rough neighbourhoods and get beaten etc. Without seeing it myself I can't possibly say if the girls working at these upmarket parlours were unhappy or not. I would say having the option to leave of your own free will and not being unhappy at work are relevant and impossible to gauge from web links. I will concede that there was paid sex though. My freind (a Thai woman) runs a Thai massage parlour without the mutual nakedness or the full body stuff, just muscle-rubs etc. for people after work.

Anyway, so he used to have upmarket knocking-shop massage parlours. And he quit. I watched him a few months back he was campaigning against criminals who were stealing flood-equipment etc. I think that is really admirable of him. And I'll take his side over Thaksin and Yingluck any day if it comes to it.

No problem, I don't pretend to understand the full complexities of Thai politics or the extent of the activities that the various "politicians" engage in... the more I dig the more preposterous the whole topic gets!

I do understand that you are trying to put your faith in certain Thai politicians at least, rightly or wrongly, and that it's far easier to sit on the fence, as I try to do, in stunned amazement as events unfold, trying to decipher fact from fiction...

As far as prostitution goes my own opinion on the subject is that any woman or man that enters into prostitution of their own free will is doing nothing wrong in my eyes. I have no issue with the "trade" but I do have issue with those seeking to profit from it indirectly, that's where the exploitation comes into it and how this turns from a free will choice into an organised racket. It's illegality does wonders for those who seek to profit off the backs of others, much the same as we see in the drug trade.

If it were legal the world over it would be far easier to control and ensure fair treatment, safety etc. As it is families are paid money by those in control to provide girls to work in this industry, that takes the free will out of the equation and it pressures the girl to do what is "necessary" to provide for the family. Enough said for now, this is a complicated topic in itself and has many sub-topics and debates to be thought through.

On the face of it Chuwit does appear to have done a full 180, from corrupt "Massage Parlour" Tycoon to Anti-corruption Activist but for me it's all a bit too convenient. Had perhaps he been stripped of all his ill gotten gains and actually been held accountable for his past actions I might have more faith in him. As it is I think this transformation is far too deliberate and contrived, much like the way he announced it... bath smashing, lying in a coffin etc. I can't help but think that perhaps acting would be a more suitable career path for Chuwit than politics...

I suggest looking at the motivation behind this transformation is key and I would caution that selective revealing of corruption is not the same as tirelessly campaigning against it. Each time one of these illegal operations are "exposed" someone stands to lose, others stand to gain. It's a common trait amongst criminals to point the fingers at others, distracting attention from what they themselves are doing. Quite telling that this method seems to be at the very heart of Thai politics... it's all about mudslinging and very few are coming up clean and smelling of roses.

It's no doubt that Thailand needs someone to come in and clean house, stand up to the corruption and point fingers, I guess only time will tell if Chuwit is the man for that job... personally I think the problems are too far reaching and the current political climate and "power distribution" in Thailand will prevent this from happening.

Chuvit said he would lodge this issue as an agenda item in any future no-confidence debate against the Yingluck government.

It takes some real minerals to campaign like Chuwit does in this political climate and background corruption. He understands that to kill the Hydra there is no point kicking it in the knees, you have to cut off its heads to stop it. History is made of heroic individuals like that. Good luck to him.

History is full of heroic massage parlour tycoons? Really?

I love the way you guys will get behind anyone, no matter how dubious their morality, if their agenda fits your own... it shows real...err... what's the word? Moral fibre? No... hypocrisy.

Don't just shoot the messenger, shoot anybody that has read the messenger, why not go postal while your at it? Meanwhile the rest of us will discuss the message and it possible value.

I'd prefer not to shoot anybody and leave it at pointing out that history isn't full of heroic massage parlour tycoons... quite the contrary in fact

...we called in the sprayers.... They didn't even manage to get all the ticks but wiped out all my Koi..

i think, we cant exclude anymore, that pesticide was also used in the pool...

maybe, those who fell sick in CM, have been in the pool?

it could be possible, that the fatal poisoning is only "active" on 1-2 days, before it degrades...

and it seems, that the dosages of pesticides needed, and when which of them turns out fatal are not really known...

and most likely its not known/tested, what happenes when people swim in pesticide contamined pools...

Dr Reeve M Sc (Toxicology), University of Surrey, UK; said “the toxicity of the pesticide via skin absorption is quite low – victims would have to be soaking in it to absorb enough to cause severe illness and death, and it has a smell that one could not fail to notice.

Thank you thank you thank you..... I wish the posters here would stop using the favorite red herring of the Thai police, chlorpyrifos , which makes the deaths seem sort of accidental.

Ok, I'm not saying this was accidental or deliberate or that this was due to chlorpyrifos, just making a point for discussion.

My point being that if the room was sprayed with excessive amounts of some incorrectly mixed pesticide (or some other concoction), this would result in oral consumption, inhalation and skin absorption, not one or the other.

Certainly in the case of my Koi it would have been a combination of all three; Pesticide ends up in the water, the fish "breath" it, get their skin covered in it and consumed it. Surely it would be much the same with people in a "tainted" hotel room?

Chuvit said he would lodge this issue as an agenda item in any future no-confidence debate against the Yingluck government.

It takes some real minerals to campaign like Chuwit does in this political climate and background corruption. He understands that to kill the Hydra there is no point kicking it in the knees, you have to cut off its heads to stop it. History is made of heroic individuals like that. Good luck to him.

History is full of heroic massage parlour tycoons? Really?

I love the way you guys will get behind anyone, no matter how dubious their morality, if their agenda fits your own... it shows real...err... what's the word? Moral fibre? No... hypocrisy.

According to your point of view, the truth revealed by a convict is untrue because of his status?

No, the point being that history is not full of Heroic Massage Parlour Tycoons and that selective ignorance of the crimes some commit while focusing on others is rank hypocrisy. That was my point.

My point of view is not easily summarised in a single post. The truth is the truth and lies are lies, the pertinent question here is what is the motivation behind the selective revealing of either?

[You are hilarious Yunla. So now Thai soapies and the exploitation of poor rural women is an ancient Thai way above outside criticism, a profession that should be revered and accepted as an ancient Thai way of life?! Thai massage is indeed an ancient part of Thai culture, clearly quite different to the modern massage parlours and soapies acting as fronts for brothels.

I would agree in so far as prostitution is certainly the oldest profession in the book. Exploiting the female members of poor, rural families to amass a great fortune however is not a profession that I see as an ancient, revered and integral part of Thai culture above outside criticism. I'll leave that for those with selective reasoning and a specific agenda to push...

Paint it however you like Yunla, Chuwit made billions of baht off the backs of the daughters of farmers, sold into prostitution. In the past he professed he had no idea what really went on in his "massage parlours", since he has admitted that they were in the business of prostitution and regularly gave out freebies to secure police favours.

Your comments about Medusa and wizards lost me somewhat, I can't see the relevance when discussing the utter hypocrisy of someone that promotes a pimp as some sort of national hero and purveyor of ancient Thai wares but is so vehement in their criticism of others engaging in what most would consider far less damaging crimes.

I understand that gambling is illegal in Thailand but then so is prostitution and both are rife here. Mind you only one of these illegal activities has a government run legal version for the masses to enjoy... that too smacks of utter hypocrisy.

Do you have any proof that his Thai massage parlours were brothels, and they had forced prostitution and that girls were mistreated there. You know that if you don't have that proof you have just slandered him in public.

I don't visit them and I don't have any research into these places. I was addressing the original point you made about "his massage parlours". I have a Thai lady friend who runs a Thai massage parlour in Bangkok, where they do massage to mainly Thais on low-budget. I know they have happy girls who are grateful for the work and are not exploited and I was wondering if you had proof that Mr. Chuwit's employees are different.

You went all-out attack on me and all I said was that his actions of facing government corruption were courageous.

If you have any doubts Yunla, google is your friend. I have said nothing that isn't common knowledge or published elsewhere.

You will note I used the past tense as Chuwit claims he has left this business behind him and is no longer involved in any massage parlours/ brothels. Neither have I suggested that any girls were mistreated, I said exploited. I firmly believe that earning money from women engaged in prostitution is exploitative.

Here's a link to Chuwit's wiki page and some exerts from it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuwit_Kamolvisit

These massage parlors cater mainly to wealthy Thais and operate in a grey area of the law; massage parlors are legal, but prostitution is not. Inside the parlors, some masseuses sit behind a glass window; others wait in a lounge or may be viewed via closed-circuit TV. Once a customer has chosen a masseuse, the couple retire to a room, where he is bathed and the masseuse performs a foam massage using her naked body. This is generally followed by sexual relations.^[2]Prices are from 2000 to 5000 baht for a two hour session. Chuwit once claimed in an interview that he was ignorant about what happens in the rooms; however, he has since admitted that prostitution does take place in his parlors.

Angry that police dared to arrest him, he publicly released the amounts of bribes he had regularly paid in the past, along with names of the high ranking police recipients. He put the total amount of bribes at 200 million baht over 10 years, but has since suggested it was closer to 12 million baht. He also claimed that "VIP" policemen received free service in his parlors (an allegation that was later confirmed by interviewing some of the masseuses.^[2])

An interview with your hero...

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/thailand/100526/thai-politics-happy-ending

Raised in Thailand, college-educated in the U.S., Chuvit made his fortune in Bangkok running lucrative “soapies”: luxury massage parlors where women treat patrons to erotic baths.

Playing godfather to a brothel empire may seem an odd springboard to becoming an anti-corruption crusader. But any Thai living in Bangkok can recount Chuvit’s path to fame, chronicled in soap opera detail by the Thai press.

In the early 2000s, Chuvit began publicly accusing senior police officers of milking him for an alleged $350,000-plus in monthly bribes. It was protection money, Chuvit claimed. Brothel bosses can escape prostitution laws through a flimsy legal sleight-of-hand: They rent out masseurs but claim ignorance of in-room activities.

I can't believe the bare faced hypocrisy here, suggesting slander, given the amount of highly dubious speculative assertions you have made on this forum about other political figures, with absolutely no evidence to back up your assertions.

History is full of heroic massage parlour tycoons? Really?

I love the way you guys will get behind anyone, no matter how dubious their morality, if their agenda fits your own... it shows real...err... what's the word? Moral fibre? No... hypocrisy.

Thai massage is an ancient profession that dates back thousands of years. Its certainly been around these parts a lot longer than you or I have. Hypocrisy is a lot nicer word than what could be used to describe people visiting a foreign land and condemning its ancient ways.

I said history is made of heroic figures, and Chuwit's actions are in my opinion courageous just like slaying Medusa and all her evil little wizards too.

Actually the last time I saw Chuwit he was making public the flood-related crimes of looting and mismanagement of the relief supplies etc. which also put him in the line of fire from the noble souls who steal relief equipment from a flood-stricken country. I immediately decided he was very heroic in his wellington-boots.

You are hilarious Yunla. So now Thai soapies and the exploitation of poor rural women is an ancient Thai way above outside criticism, a profession that should be revered and accepted as an ancient Thai way of life?! Thai massage is indeed an ancient part of Thai culture, clearly quite different to the modern massage parlours and soapies acting as fronts for brothels.

I would agree in so far as prostitution is certainly the oldest profession in the book. Exploiting the female members of poor, rural families to amass a great fortune however is not a profession that I see as an ancient, revered and integral part of Thai culture above outside criticism. I'll leave that for those with selective reasoning and a specific agenda to push...

Paint it however you like Yunla, Chuwit made billions of baht off the backs of the daughters of farmers, sold into prostitution. In the past he professed he had no idea what really went on in his "massage parlours", since he has admitted that they were in the business of prostitution and regularly gave out freebies to secure police favours.

Your comments about Medusa and wizards lost me somewhat, I can't see the relevance when discussing the utter hypocrisy of someone that promotes a pimp as some sort of national hero and purveyor of ancient Thai wares but is so vehement in their criticism of others engaging in what most would consider far less damaging crimes.

I understand that gambling is illegal in Thailand but then so is prostitution and both are rife here. Mind you only one of these illegal activities has a government run legal version for the masses to enjoy... that too smacks of utter hypocrisy.

Some are being kind of harsh on the Tourist...

So this guy from Egypt comes to this part of Thailand where it's well known for ripping off tourists. He agrees to pay 300B. Now 300B is an exorbitant amount to pay for less than one kl. In New York, one of the most expensive cities in the world, taxis cost $2.50 just for getting in and an additional .50 per 1/4 mile..So in NY this journey would cost about 125B for however many people can legally fit into the vehicle. But in los, a third world country it cost 300B.?? This guy is thinking ...I think I'm getting ripped off here.

How many people? Ahh.....I dont know..lets say six. Then a few of his buddies jump on and stand on the back as they pull away. Now the driver wants 400B. The Egyptian guy doesn't want to back down in front of ten of his best mates...and you have the ingredients for an interesting confrontation. So there's your problem.

I am surprised that a Thai would resort to physical violence. It would take allot for a Thai to hit someone. Never seen that.. Most would just take the 300B and walk away pissed off ..but with that silly grin on their face.

I agree some are being harsh on the tourist. No one really knows how it went down except those that were there. The only fact we do know is that the driver resorted to physical violence, the tourist did not. But if you live here then you should certainly be aware that when compared to westerners, Thai's are generally very tolerant, and are all smiley up to a point, but often when a certain level of face is lost, they can snap. It is a well known characteristic of the culture and you see such events in the news frequently, particularly with farangs that don't understand this, like 100% of tourists. The group that works at the top of Bangla where this incident happened are a particularly violent bunch. There have been countless incidents there. As I mentioned I saw one myself where 20+ tuk tuk drivers took turns beating the snot out of a coupe tourists. I reported it to multiple English language media but the police denied it happened despite the police taking the bloodied tourists away an the back of a RTP truck.

If by "you have never seen Thai's resort to violence" you mean you have never heard or read about it, I suggest you click here to visit my post #180. That is just a partial list of Phuket tuk tuk incidents, most of them involving violence against foreigners.

One of these days someone will video a tuk-tuk incident on their phone and upload it. I'm surprised other tourist in the area didn't do this when they saw the disturbance. They were probably in fear they would be assaulted as well.

Or perhaps most onlookers thought the Egyptian was acting like a tw@t...

Sounds like it was the tuk tuk driver that reacted out of fear to me... crowded by 10 Egyptians he lost his cool, lashed out and ran away. It doesn't sound like he managed to scare the Egyptian bloke he hit let alone any passers by... but don't let that stand in the way of some good TV speculation!

Chuvit said he would lodge this issue as an agenda item in any future no-confidence debate against the Yingluck government.

It takes some real minerals to campaign like Chuwit does in this political climate and background corruption. He understands that to kill the Hydra there is no point kicking it in the knees, you have to cut off its heads to stop it. History is made of heroic individuals like that. Good luck to him.

History is full of heroic massage parlour tycoons? Really?

I love the way you guys will get behind anyone, no matter how dubious their morality, if their agenda fits your own... it shows real...err... what's the word? Moral fibre? No... hypocrisy.

A leopard cannot change its spots but there are people who can & do reform. Whether or not K. Chuwit has genuinely reformed or not is pure conjecture.

Yes I'm sure with billions of baht in his bank accounts already earned from illegal prostitution, reform comes easy.

Much like the bank robber that having made his big heist, retires from the life of crime and sits back to live off the proceeds... is that what you'd call a reformed criminal?

The guy self admittedly ran a notorious prostitution racket, existing through bribery and corruption, has never served any real time for it and is now pointing his fingers at the corrupt businesses of others, namely illegal gambling dens?

What represents a bigger issue in Thailand, illegal gambling or prostitution and the exploitation of women from poor, rural families? Pot calling the kettle black springs to mind...

>>Fares are controlled and kept high to prevent people coming in and undercutting the existing drivers

No, fares are controlled because those in control make millions of baht per month by controlling this racket via co op fees and rentals of the vehicles. The families in control could give a flying **** about anything else. If anyone tried to come in and undercut the fares, they'd find themselves in hospital...........if they're lucky, disappeared if they're not lucky.

Are you agreeing or disagreeing?!

The fares aren't undercut because the controlling families won't allow that to happen because it will eat into their profit margins. It's the powers that be keeping the fares high and controlling them, not the tuk tuk drivers, they simply tow the line or lose their livelihood.

Is that the fault of the individual tuk tuk drivers? I regularly see them all in their Armani suits, pulling back into their 4 car garages, in their private pool villas after a hard night driving drunks around Patong...

Corruption is rife in Thailand and it stems from the top. No tuk tuk driver is in any position to change the way the system works here, they're at the bottom of the ladder and will do anything they can to keep their family afloat.

Chuvit said he would lodge this issue as an agenda item in any future no-confidence debate against the Yingluck government.

It takes some real minerals to campaign like Chuwit does in this political climate and background corruption. He understands that to kill the Hydra there is no point kicking it in the knees, you have to cut off its heads to stop it. History is made of heroic individuals like that. Good luck to him.

History is full of heroic massage parlour tycoons? Really?

I love the way you guys will get behind anyone, no matter how dubious their morality, if their agenda fits your own... it shows real...err... what's the word? Moral fibre? No... hypocrisy.

Thailand can improve the peace and safety of its society by just looking to their neighbors like Singapore for example. Crimes like these usually end with the death penalty. The bag-snatchers, in this case, who ended up killing the victim are hanged within a year or at most 2 years. That’s it. If they were into drugs in the first place which resulted in this crime, it would never have happened in Singapore. They would have been dangling at the end of a rope for drugs well before doing any drug related crimes. That’s it. Case closed.

Thailand's trying to develop, not regress.

Personally I'd prefer some sort of happy medium in between a completely lawless state and a totalitarian dictatorship or as my buddies in Singapore would put it "a friendly dictatorship!".

I think the best description I've heard of Singapore is to consider it like a company not a country. IMHO the death sentence can't exist in a truly functional, democratic society and I wouldn't take Singapore as a shining example of a functional democracy... far from it.

Crime statistics in Germany under Hitler were at a record low but I wouldn't take that as an ideal for Thailand to follow either... of course the real crimes were being committed by the state.

You can't argue with those photos. They tell the sad story.

I would like to see the tuk-tuks drive around as baht buses, like in Pattaya. I wouldn't even trust them with meters. Make them work for a living, rather than do nothing all day and rip of one tourist for a days wage for a 10 minute ride. In Pattaya it's 10 baht to ride, I'd pay 20, or maybe 30 baht here. They would actually make more money with many people jumping on and off during their shift.

This time of year, there are many cheap guest houses for 500 baht per night. To go for a drink to Kata is 400 baht down in the afternoon and 800 baht back at night. That's 1200 baht. No wonder many ride down, get a room for the night, get drunk, go back to the room, have breakfast in the morning and ride home. A 8.5km journey is an overnight trip on Phuket.

An absolute disgrace.

Great idea but if all the tuk tuks in Patong took to the roads like baht buses the town would be gridlocked. Your idea would work for a privileged few drivers, the vast majority would be out of a job.

That's the crux of the issue, too many Thais flocking to Phuket to earn a crust. Fares are controlled and kept high to prevent people coming in and undercutting the existing drivers, driving the prices down to the point that no one earns a decent living. If the prices were slashed perhaps they'd still be enough for the single guy from Nakhon Si Nowhere to keep going but not for the original Phuket based driver supporting a wife and 4 children... much like the influx of cheap eastern European labour in the UK. Fine for the Polish builder sharing a room with 4 others and sending the majority of his salary back east, not so great for the established English builder with 3 kids and a mortgage.

The cost of living in Phuket is high. This isn't down to tuk tuk prices as suggested earlier! It's to do with a number of factors, not least the sky high land prices due to the number of foreign investors here prepared to pay well over the odds for land, labour and materials. Expect prices to continue to rise because development here is showing little signs of decreasing.... perhaps the bubble will eventually burst but for the time being, expect prices to rise not fall. You will notice a similar trend in other countries/ regions if you choose to look...

I am also amused at your inability to comprehend what I wrote or follow the discussion. Readers of at least average intelligence will understand that my "False" statements were in direct response to your claim that the expensive Patong tuk tuks are only in Patong, and your suggestion that "the rest of Phuket" has affordable alternatives which you list as motorcycle taxi's, songteaws, taxi's, and cheaper than Patong tuk tuks..

As for local people not having an affordable way to get around the island, that's complete tosh. Most use motorbikes - what comes cheaper than that? Tuk Tuks operate in Patong, tourist central. The rest of Phuket is served by Songthaew, Taxis, Motorbike Taxis and cheaper than Patong Tuk Tuks...

As I explained quite clearly, you are wrong on either one or both of your points (availablilty and affordability) for each mode of transport you mentioned as each of these options you list are either not affordable, or not even available in other parts of Phuket counter to what you claim.

In fact, Kata/Karon tuk tuks are actually more expensive than Patongs. Anyone that has had to travel between Kata/Karon and Patong on a tuk tuk knows this. According to what one tuk tuk driver told me, this is due to the better orgainized Kata/Karon "co-op". . (It also explains why Kata/Karon has no motorcycle taxis.)

Phuket tuk tuks maybe slightly cheaper, but are still out of reach for most Thai's. When I tried to get a tuk tuk from Phuket Town inter-provencial bus station to the Phuket Town local bus (baht bus) station across town I was flat refused. The only option was 500B all the way to Kata. A distance that would have been 100B in an air-conditioned Bangkok taxi. Another BM just told me that when he uses a tuk tuk to trasport items from town to Chalong if he can't fit it all on his motorbike then he uses a tuk tuk. Cost is 350 baht for a trip that would be 70B in an air-conditioned Bangkok taxi.

As for your staff, they are either using privat;y hired song teaws or local baht buses. just about every hotel or resort of any size has to have it's own fleet of song teaws in order for their staff to get to and from work. "Song teaw" means "two rows" and refers to the two rows of benches in the back. Baht buses typically have a row running down the middle, but some also have just two. Song teaws are what Pattaya and Krabi have constantly circling around and between the beach destinations. A ride on which costs 20B or so, and usually "lady not pay" We do not have this song teaw system. If I am not mistaken, even the baht bus prices are up to 50B now. And again, there is no baht bus running between the beach areas directly due violent mafia action.

Any reasoably intelligent reader would also understand what I was saying with the photo's I posted. Most people can count, too. In one you can clearly see that 8 average to large size people can fit in the back of one. In another you see people riding on the back which is not uncommon when you have a lot of people in one tuk tuk. Add one or two more in the cab there is 10 or 11. And that's full sized people. With kids or smaller women more is possible. I'm sorry you can't seem to put the logical peieces together like everyone else, but when I Googled "10 large Egyptions in one tuk tuk." nothing came up.

Locals needing to buy their own bikes is not comical in the least. It's tragic. It is an established fact repeated by the media on many occasions. This not only resaults in additional traffic but also resaults in an increase in injuries and fatalities. All due to the fact that these poor people have no, or very little, alternatives.

Sorry, I'm not getting into a heated argument about whether a bunch of different modes of transport exist here, when I personally have used them all on more than one occasion in the last decade or so here. If you're having trouble PM me for details.

As to whether or not they are affordable I guess that depends on your personal income but I'm not one to argue over £2. You can hire a car from 500 baht a day here, £10, if you don't like the varied supply of transport on offer I would suggest renting one.

Neither am I going any further with these "you can cram 10 people into a tuk tuk" arguments. It's missing the obvious point that you can, this guy did it and it's not the normal, accepted thing to do, so £2 extra to do it shouldn't send someone into a rage, refusing to pay the fare or exit the tuk tuk.

It's just not reasonable behaviour and if you conduct yourself in that manner, expect to get punched by someone at some point wherever you are in the world.

Lucky you not worrying about £2.

Most Thais only earn £6 a day.

You sound like another Phuket business person denying anything that is bad about Phuket

Unfortunately with the likes of this Egyptian and the majority of posters on here, they're never likely to earn more either are they?

What a confused stance, you moan about Thais not earning over £6 a day yet would quibble an extra £2 for a local tuk tuk driver.... you seem to miss the connection. These guys have to earn a living and the fares aren't approaching the high costs of taxis in the west here.

Yes, I am a Phuket based businessman, one that's trying to bring UK standards into Thailand and I pay my staff a hell of a lot more than £6 a day. I am of the opinion that if you pay peanuts you get monkeys and by raising salaries you can raise standards. Personally I don't see that moaning about lowly salaries and then complaining that prices are to high you are doing anything to change the status quo.

Given that the Phuket tuk tuks primarily serve the tourist areas here you obviously have no idea how this impacts the local Thais. Thais use the Songthaews, private taxis, the motorcycle taxis and... shock horror... their own vehicles. Given that for the cost of c.30 tuk tuk rides in Patong you can buy a 2nd hand motorbike and given the easy finance available to Thais, why would you expect them to use the tuk tuks?

Tuk Tuks are a convenient, novelty for Tourists here, for skipping from one bar to the next or back to the hotel. They cost a lot more to buy than a normal pickup/ car and price accordingly.

I am also amused at your inability to comprehend what I wrote or follow the discussion. Readers of at least average intelligence will understand that my "False" statements were in direct response to your claim that the expensive Patong tuk tuks are only in Patong, and your suggestion that "the rest of Phuket" has affordable alternatives which you list as motorcycle taxi's, songteaws, taxi's, and cheaper than Patong tuk tuks..

As for local people not having an affordable way to get around the island, that's complete tosh. Most use motorbikes - what comes cheaper than that? Tuk Tuks operate in Patong, tourist central. The rest of Phuket is served by Songthaew, Taxis, Motorbike Taxis and cheaper than Patong Tuk Tuks...

As I explained quite clearly, you are wrong on either one or both of your points (availablilty and affordability) for each mode of transport you mentioned as each of these options you list are either not affordable, or not even available in other parts of Phuket counter to what you claim.

In fact, Kata/Karon tuk tuks are actually more expensive than Patongs. Anyone that has had to travel between Kata/Karon and Patong on a tuk tuk knows this. According to what one tuk tuk driver told me, this is due to the better orgainized Kata/Karon "co-op". . (It also explains why Kata/Karon has no motorcycle taxis.)

Phuket tuk tuks maybe slightly cheaper, but are still out of reach for most Thai's. When I tried to get a tuk tuk from Phuket Town inter-provencial bus station to the Phuket Town local bus (baht bus) station across town I was flat refused. The only option was 500B all the way to Kata. A distance that would have been 100B in an air-conditioned Bangkok taxi. Another BM just told me that when he uses a tuk tuk to trasport items from town to Chalong if he can't fit it all on his motorbike then he uses a tuk tuk. Cost is 350 baht for a trip that would be 70B in an air-conditioned Bangkok taxi.

As for your staff, they are either using privat;y hired song teaws or local baht buses. just about every hotel or resort of any size has to have it's own fleet of song teaws in order for their staff to get to and from work. "Song teaw" means "two rows" and refers to the two rows of benches in the back. Baht buses typically have a row running down the middle, but some also have just two. Song teaws are what Pattaya and Krabi have constantly circling around and between the beach destinations. A ride on which costs 20B or so, and usually "lady not pay" We do not have this song teaw system. If I am not mistaken, even the baht bus prices are up to 50B now. And again, there is no baht bus running between the beach areas directly due violent mafia action.

Any reasoably intelligent reader would also understand what I was saying with the photo's I posted. Most people can count, too. In one you can clearly see that 8 average to large size people can fit in the back of one. In another you see people riding on the back which is not uncommon when you have a lot of people in one tuk tuk. Add one or two more in the cab there is 10 or 11. And that's full sized people. With kids or smaller women more is possible. I'm sorry you can't seem to put the logical peieces together like everyone else, but when I Googled "10 large Egyptions in one tuk tuk." nothing came up.

Locals needing to buy their own bikes is not comical in the least. It's tragic. It is an established fact repeated by the media on many occasions. This not only resaults in additional traffic but also resaults in an increase in injuries and fatalities. All due to the fact that these poor people have no, or very little, alternatives.

Sorry, I'm not getting into a heated argument about whether a bunch of different modes of transport exist here, when I personally have used them all on more than one occasion in the last decade or so here. If you're having trouble PM me for details.

As to whether or not they are affordable I guess that depends on your personal income but I'm not one to argue over £2. You can hire a car from 500 baht a day here, £10, if you don't like the varied supply of transport on offer I would suggest renting one.

Neither am I going any further with these "you can cram 10 people into a tuk tuk" arguments. It's missing the obvious point that you can, this guy did it and it's not the normal, accepted thing to do, so £2 extra to do it shouldn't send someone into a rage, refusing to pay the fare or exit the tuk tuk.

It's just not reasonable behaviour and if you conduct yourself in that manner, expect to get punched by someone at some point wherever you are in the world.

It's not just bald tyres and bad driving though. The way the buses are constructed is haphazard, in backstreet factories with old parts and amateur welders tagging bits on as they feel like.

You can see on that one in the video linked above how the box section ladder chassis has just crumpled, there's no structural rigidity to it, and thus no protection during an accident. Look at the difference:

Here's a Czech bus that crashed in Germany carrying 57 people, and went on it's roof, with 1 dead

Here's the Thai bus that hit a pylon, carrying 24, and left 10 dead

No one in the front 3rd of that bus stood a chance. Different accidents, I know. But I suspect if the Thai bus had gone on it's roof then the death toll would have been higher still.

And then there's the question of whether or not the seats were bolted down properly, and to what.

If they put half as much thought into basic construction as they put into lights, murals and sound systems then they might get somewhere. Until then I'll avoid them like the plague.

Not sure if the government buses are any better?

I understand what you are saying but the two situations are clearly very different - the Czech bus clearly hasn't sustained any front end impact at all, even the headlights are intact. It certainly didn't speed head on into a heavy inanimate object. Actually the under body construction of both looks very similar.

The Swiss bus crash earlier this year would be a better comparison of the extent of damage to be expected from a head on crash at speed and fared similarly to the Thai bus... I won't post a photo or link because it was a terrible incident and it's easily googleable.

From the recent stories coming in it seems that this tragic crash here was down to the driver speeding not any vehicle defect; I think that's two posters on here and my wife's who has heard the same through a friend. I'm not saying that's the cause (or that because my wife says so it must be true) but if it is, it makes it all the more tragic as it was so unnecessary and avoidable. A burst tyre would have been much easier for all involved to bear...

It would also make a good case for all to ignore any initial police/ news reports speculation in Thailand.

With that in mind the agreed fare of 300 baht for 6 people is in keeping with the guidelines.

400 baht for 10 represents a 100 baht saving on what he could have legitimately requested, again keeping in line with the fares laid out by the local Government...

Correct, but the issue here is the driver's assault on a potential passenger. As I read the story the Tuk Tuk had not moved anywhere. The driver noticed the extra 4 pax and upped the price. Fair enough. If the pax did not want to pay then tell them to get off. Striking the pax was wrong, and against the law. I suspect language difficulties and egos caused this assault. The bigger issue is that this sort of behaviour gets reported far too often.

Understood and totally agree, it shouldn't have come to violence but I see responsibility for this incident on both sides here.

If the Egyptian didn't want to pay the princely sum of £8 to transport 10 people back to his hotel perhaps he should have simply left and tried to find a larger vehicle or perhaps walked. Anyone travelling to a foreign country should do some research before going and the Thai response to confrontation and issues with "face" are well known.

I tend to have sympathy for cabbies/ tuk tuk drivers in these situations, having two uncles working as London cabbies. One was stabbed and left for dead by drunken, argumentative punters and is lucky to be alive today. Both now work with weapons in the cab and if put into a situation with an aggressive punter refusing to pay a fare or exit the cab they will use them, quite rightly. I dare say if this Egyptian tried similar tactics with either of them he would have ended up a lot worse for ware.

On the one side you have an argumentative tourist taking the p!$$, on the other someone doing a job to provide for his family. One can simply walk away and get on with his holiday, or cough up £2, the other has to put up with drunken, argumentative idiots on a daily basis just to earn a crust.

I appreciate that others see the situation differently and I think many perspectives are being clouded by the spate of tuk tuk incidents in the past.

According to the news reports on TV, the driver had been asked to slow down by one of the farangs a few moments prior to the accident. The tyre burst when it hit the kerb at over 110 kph.

If this is true then why the need for the initial police speculation in the reports?

If an eye witness has stated that the driver was speeding, hit the kerb and burst the tyre, while the police are giving out press statements about sleeping drivers, someone really needs to have a word about due process. Talk to the witnesses, gather evidence at the scene and then issue a press statement.

It might make TV a dull place by removing all the speculative posts but would save those personally involved in these tragic situations a lot of grief searching about for fact over fiction.

the police here will always speculate to the press, in my opinion is a face thing and an inability to say 'investigations are ongoing so I would not like to speculate'

I agree it probably is a face thing but both the police and press here seem to be a bit more careful with the speculation when it comes to cases involving the more "Hi So" Thais...

I guess defamation cases are easier to file when the alleged victim has political clout and money behind them.

pretty sure I remember "Can not exceed 200 THB" within limits of Patong city but might recheck.

Yes, this topic http://www.thaivisa....-tuk-tuk-fares/

"The maximum fares for taxi rides within Patong will be 200 baht for up to four passengers and a maximum extra charge of 50 baht per passenger exceeding four, as reported by the Phuket Gazette last month."

However this was soon 'interpreted' as 200 baht minimum fare by the drivers. As there was no minimum fare listed in the guidelines.

With that in mind the agreed fare of 300 baht for 6 people is in keeping with the guidelines.

400 baht for 10 represents a 100 baht saving on what he could have legitimately requested, again keeping in line with the fares laid out by the local Government...

According to the news reports on TV, the driver had been asked to slow down by one of the farangs a few moments prior to the accident. The tyre burst when it hit the kerb at over 110 kph.

If this is true then why the need for the initial police speculation in the reports?

If an eye witness has stated that the driver was speeding, hit the kerb and burst the tyre, while the police are giving out press statements about sleeping drivers, someone really needs to have a word about due process. Talk to the witnesses, gather evidence at the scene and then issue a press statement.

It might make TV a dull place by removing all the speculative posts but would save those personally involved in these tragic situations a lot of grief searching about for fact over fiction.

when the press/police or posters on here speculate, that a bus driver

- fell asleep

- made a mistake

then this isnt really that far fetched - as its the common cause of bus accidents...

when the POLICE speculates, two girls mysterioulsy died

- of "food-poisoning"

within a few hours, with bleeding tissues, blue nails, an all-over skin rash, and without seeking help

then this is almost obscene...

...at least it appears so to many readers...

and when the bus wreckage leads to speculations about speed, then its also not unnormal - not every bus looks that bad, when hitting some post...

I appreciate your take on this but the logic you apply is quite selective...

You could argue that on finding two dead girls in a hotel room, no sign of a struggle, poisoning would naturally be the first assumption. Food poisoning being relatively common in Thailand. To be fair I think the speculation about illicit drugs/ magic mushrooms drew the most reaction and rightly so. Why? Because of the effect that would have on the victims family reading these speculative comments at such a tragic time.

You could also argue that on inspecting the scene of a bus crash where you have surviving witnesses, police speculation is unnecessary as you could talk to the witnesses and gather their accounts of the events first... before alluding to driver faults.

The big difference being that they have witnesses that were on the bus who surely can give an accurate account of what happened. If the driver was drunk, on drugs, speeding or asleep surely someone would make reference to that in their witness statement?

A driver falling asleep on the job and losing control due to a blown front tyre are totally different in terms of the blame that is being apportioned to the (deceased) driver in this incident. This guy has a family too but perhaps not so easy for people to readily identify with a Thai bus drivers family as opposed to a foreign tourist's... who knows, but there's a distinct lack of people calling for sensitivity towards his family.