seville

Time will tell as to what changes are made at the Temple and perhaps as you said Wildlife Conservation Agencies and the like might be able to promote what they are doing in time.

At this time I haven't been able to find any that support them.

Thanks for playing devils advocate and making mention of the libel laws in Thailand. Let's just say that many an unwanted visitor has shown up on someones door for being too outspoken.

Stub I see your points. But I also see the points of people who think there could be a better way to feed and look after the Tigers that have been put in the care of the Temple.

You support them and clearly WWFT and Lonely Planet does not. Maybe with all the bad press and visiting Animal activist the Abbot is re-thinking the way the cats have been treated in the past and is making big steps to change things.

There isn't one animal welfare group that I can find that is supporting them only tourists and tour agencies.

As I said before, I know Edwin and I spent 3 weeks at WWFT. There is to no reason for him to make up some story and report that the Tigers are being mistreated.

They don't have to be lead on leashes to get money to help support them. They are Wild Animals, even if they are not living in the Wild. It's opinion and a lot of the opinion out there is that there is a lot of money being made and not all of it is being spent on the Tigers.

I've looked around and I haven't found any groups that support them, so..............

Of course you rely on negative reinforcement. If you are dealing with a big predetor you won't get very far if you give them a pat on the head if they don't maim somebody that day. Owners of house cats use negative reinforcement - tom's don't stop spraying your door step because you ask them nicely to. I love how they discuss the lack of tranquilizer equipment in the same paragraph as the criticism of negative reinforcement. Does anyone honestly think a whack on the nose, such as a mother would give a cub, is a worse way of keeping an animal under control than shooting it in the arse with a tranquilizer dart or keeping them drugged when around people?

Stub, you don't get it. WWFT does not think the Tigers should be forced to get their pictures taken for the sake of money and to entertain tourist. They are not suggesting that the Tigers should be doped up and put on leases.

They are not house pets! They are Wild Animals who were taken out of the wild and put into cages. Some of the Tigers were born there, but the rest were pouched from the Wild.

I'm not saying that the Abbot pouched them, but I think forcing them to sit with Tourist for pictures is wrong.

As for WWFT's website, they do make mention of The Tiger Temple. It is on the News Page under the campaign to stop the use of wildlife in tourism.

If any of you feel that purposely not feeding an animal a proper diet isn't abuse clearly needs to study up on the diseases and suffering caused by malnutrition.

I guess I'm the one who does not read, thanks Wilco.

Kusarigama do you not read.

"And there has yet to be a single shred of evidence presented by anyone claiming these animals are mistreated in any way."

Wilco the original poster was there and gave a first hand account of someone who was there as a volunteer. Wilco saw the abuse that you did not.

The letter I copied and posted was sent to Me by Edwin Wiek the director of Wildlife Friends of Thailand.

He and a group of people from International Animal Welfare and some other Wildlife Conservation Representatives went to see the Temple for themselves.

Their opinion of the Temple was given.

I don't know, but I think people who have pretty much dedicated a good portion of their lives for the welfare of animals, knows a little more then some guy who had a bunch of dogs and a rabbit.

It stated that the enclosures were not enriched and that the food given was not the proper diet for Tigers. Read up on Metabolic bone disease. Just one of the many diseases that is caused from malnutrition.

I'm finished concerning myself with Kusarigama's posts on this matter.

When I read the original post I decided to e-mail someone who is dedicated to the welfare of the Wild Animals of Thailand. He seemed to back up the opinion and concerns of the OP.

Thanks to Wilco for sharing with us what he/she saw there. I was thinking about going there myself. I was hoping that the Temple was similar to The Elephant Heaven in Chiang Mai. It would seem that it is not.

Peace out

Kusarigama

The letter in my post was indeed from Wild life friends of Thailand and was sent to me by the director himself. I volunteered there for nearly a month and Edwin was the one who sent me the letter. He responded first that he would hope I would not support them by going to visit.

The letter, as I stated, was sent to people inquiring about volunteering with WWFT. This includes the final paragraph which you seem to think rings of a, " feminist vegen who's out of valium (not that there's anything wrong with being angry or out of valium."

Kusarigama,

You were there and I was not, so your opinion is yours and that can be respected. However, WWFT's opinion and many Wildlife advocate groups see the condition and the situation of these Tigers as something different.

First off they do not believe that they should be paraded around so you and others can get a picture with a Tiger. They see this as exploiting them.

Perhaps they have water and shade for the Tigers now, but that didn't seem to be the case when Edwin and the group went there.

You said it yourself, you were there for 2 hours and are not a vet, nor are you an expert on the behavior of Tigers.

I asked the opinion of someone who I respect and admire very much and what I posted was what he sent me. I decided to share this with forum.

Nice how you not only jump to conclusions but like to throw in derogatory comments about someone you know nothing about.

Hi Dea,

Did you ever think about going to the Historical Study Center, National Muesum or the college. I would think something might spark an interest in you and I would think there would be some very interesting Thai people who speak very good English there as well. There are a lot of artists around that area and an Art School. We ended up going and seeing an interesting show from a young Thai artist who's subject was Street Dogs.

Taking a class might be tricky if your Thai isn't great, but you never know. Volunteering somewhere might be another way to spend your time doing something worthwhile that you find interesting. I love the energy of Aytthaya. I'm sure there is something there you can sink your teeth into.

First off I have not been to the temple, but have volunteered at two wildlife rescue centers in Thailand and two in the U.S. all four are strongly against exploiting wildlife. What I am posting below was sent to me from WWFT and is what they send to people inquiring about volunteering there, especially when the Tiger Temple is mentioned.

My understanding is that there are strong efforts being made to take the animals away from the abbot and find more humane homes for them.

Something about the infamous tiger temple:

After hearing many complaints about the place from tourists and volunteers (we have even had volunteers come here after they left the tiger temple sick after a few days of volunteering), we visited the tiger temple with representative of international animal welfare / wildlife conservation organisations earlier this year. Short summary:

There are animals locked up in tiny, un-enriched enclosures.

Tigers are showing signs of malnourishment, e.g. sight defects. They have been fed on dogfood and chicken - an incomplete diet for felines.

Tigers are reported to be beaten and abused into submission (negative-reinforcement techniques), in order that they can be handled and paraded in front of the abbott and the tourists.

The monks / handlers do not have any training or equipment for tranquilising animals and therefore have no form of emergency control if a tiger goes bezerk. They rely heavily on negative reinforcement to keep the tigers docile, but there is always the risk of an animal getting out of control.

Tigers are chained up outside for several hours without shade or drinking water so that tourists can take photos of themselves with the tigers.

The initial 4 tigers have rumoured to have actually been bought by the abbott from an illegal wildlife trader, mixed species have been interbred and there are now at least 17 tigers from a limited gene-pool. The conservation value of this is more than questionable.

The tigers have been officially confiscated by the government, as the abbott has no legal documentation or permit to keep them. However, as the government have no-where else to take care of the animals, they remain under the "care" of the Tiger Temple.

The abbott himself is not open to constructive criticism of his operation or support from organisations wishing to improve the welfare of the animals and safety of the staff/volunteers/tourists.

Approximately 300 tourists pass through each day, each paying a mere $10 entrance fee plus extra fees for "special" photos with the tigers - i.e. approx. $20000 per week is cashed in, excluding further donations, and there is little sign that this is being spent on the welfare of the animals.

Apologies if this sounds harsh, but we like to be hard and to the point. If your aim is to volunteer for an organisation that has a high regard for the welfare of the animals, then we do not recommend the Tiger Temple in Kanchanaburi. If your aim is however to touch/pet wild animals, take your photo with them and generally exploit them for your own personal enjoyment and experience, then please do not consider applying to us as this behaviour is against our principles. For your information, we also have a campaign against wildlife exploitation in tourism, some information is on our website here: http://www.wfft.org/campaigns.htm

I think I'm going for a visit to Lopburi next month any suggestions for small guest house or bungalows.

Everything I've on the web is more money then I'd like to spend.

Thanks

take out my knife....

Wow, that's truly amazing. I can't even cut a watermelon in half straight.

First I wanted to be an actress or singer and played around a bit at school and into my twenties. I always wanted to live on a tropical Island like Swiss Family Robinson. Got that one, pretty much nailed down.

Worked in music for about 10 years, so got my fix there.

Dreams do change. I for years wanted to get married and have kids. I'll take the married with the perfect guy for me, but the kids part....... no way.

I have no regrets and I'm in my early 40's so have lots of time for more dreams and time to seek them out. Right now I'm working on the small little house in Thailand with my partner and working hard, but not too hard dream. One step at a time.

For those of you interested in Wildlife Friends of Thailand the web address is http://www.wfft.org/

To answer SBK question, the Gibbons will not be able to be taken back to the wild as they more then likely were babies when they were stolen from their mothers and are heavily imprinted. The adults are shot from trees to get the babies.

What will happen over the course of their stay with WFT is they will be put into quarentine and treated for any alments and brought back to health.

Most of the animals you see are not only mistreated, but the food given to them is not nuturitional enough to make them healthy.

They will then be placed near one another and if all goes well start being put into groups in large enclosures. If this is successful the group will then be moved to a Gibbon island at the center. The Gibbon islands are small islands that the center made in the lake located on the grounds of the center. Gibbons can't swim, so they are free, but cannot get off the islands.

They are monitored and given food twice a day, but for the most part are left to do what gibbons would do in the wild. They do forage and feed themselves. They are even breeding.

I volunteered there a number of years ago and it was one of the most rewarding experiences I've had in Thailand.

And for you guys who think this is a funny story and want to try out your comedy routines, would you kindly start a new thread or PM each other.

I think most men don't talk as much as women in general and as for Thai men that might be taken up a notch. My boyfriend is very quiet and is even quiet amongst his peers, so take that into account. If he is the guy that is hanging with his friends and not really adding to the chatter then he is just quiet. Some people only talk when they have something important to say, they aren't into idle chit chat.

"It seems like converstaion and banter for the sake of provocative thinking and converstaion is a foreign concept to him."

It is a foreign concept to him and you are never going to get him to change on this one. He was raised to value stillness and keeping his mind empty. If he feels love in his heart for you and wants to be with you he just accepts it.

There is no great need to dig deep into every little thing that is in your head or a desire to question why it's you he wants to be with.

I know it's frustrating, but you have to let it go. Chances are he is just a simple man.

If your idea of a solid relationship is having long conversations of why you are together and diving into the depths of your souls, forget it.

Accept the smile when you walk in the door and a warm touch.

Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone lives on Mae Haad? I'm looking at a place there, thanks.

in the supermarket you can buy beer from 20-25 Baht - a large Bottle of Thai - Whisky 200.... a instant noodle dish in the 7/11 for a few baht, they stock tuna in cans, sliced bread, it's all there.... a thai noodle soup, simple rice dishes, at a roadside stall 25-30 Baht....

have a nice party!

No roadside stalls in Had Rin, but 7-11 is alive and well

You would be cutting it very close. If your lucky you might find a place to stay that is 300 baht per. night. In Had Rin there are a few. Most of the cheaper places don't take reservations and the closer to the night of the party the harder it will be to find a cheap place. It's been pretty slow on the Island this year and the next few months are always the slowest.

The train, bus and boat to the island is about 900 baht each way. Unless you can stand going 3rd class. Not sure about the bus all the way down, I prefer the train.

There are very few cheap places to eat in Had Rin and the island compared to bigger cities. It's cheap by western standards, but not really by Thai. Figure at least 100 baht per. meal. 50-80 for a beer.

Hope this helps

Who are they building it for? Lotus is packed all the time, soon Big C will ease off them being so busy. I've never seen any of the up scale shops and boutiques in Chawang packed and sometimes it's quite sad to see all the sales staff so bored.

It reminds me so much of Florida in the 80's when developers were making a bundle building malls that sat vacant after they were built.

How about the joke of a mall they built in Thongsala on KP. Ting Tong Maak Maak

Try posting in the Buddhism thread. I know lot's of people that have stayed at Suan Muok and heard good things about Wat Tham on Phangan. Both Vipassana retreats.

The boat from TNP only stops in Had Rin and then onto the east side of the island. Good boat a good bunch of guys. I don't think you would have to pay any extra money to have your things put on board. You would have to figure out how to get everything from Had Rin to Koh Maa. That is where it would be a true pain in the arse. You could go to TNP and from there hire a long tail to run you over to Koh Maa. Songserm might be the easiest way.

Kop khun ka sunisa,

I'm guessing your Thai. Nice website to bad no English. I got a very nice pm from Gisele and will continue to look into Nakhon for our future.

I forget the name, but the dentist on the ring road in Chawang I thought was very good. The office is on the ring road going towards Lamai after the old post office. The office is on the left hand side of the road. They also have an office in Maenam.

That's very good news I think for the future.

Yes, it does.

Insightful thread. The U.S. doesn't allow for dual citizenship, does it Sbk?

I don't know Suncliff, but there are so many little places to stay between the pier and Ban Kai, it's sort of amazing when you have a really good look. From the road it doesn't look like that many, but if you walk the beach there are a lot of little places.

Coral Bungalows is rocking all the time and people really like it there, but my guess is they are booked out a little further a head then most. It would be a great place to say if you were on your own looking to meet people to hang out with or if you like a big social atmosphere.

It's super slow right now and Had Rin won't be completely full until one day before, if that. There are lots of places that don't have websites and aren't listed. If your going to arrive a day or two before you can find rooms pretty easy this time of year.

Black & White, Family House, Friendly and maybe even Naptunes may have rooms. If you arrive on the Had Rin Queen from Samui all the listed Bungalows are right on the beach to the left of the pier as you are facing the island.

This is the sunset side and very nice. If it's busy and everything full you can also hop on a long tail boat and head over to Had Tien and Had Yuan. Super mellow, but cool and lot's of fun to stay on those two beaches. The night of the party you just catch a long tail back to Had Rin.

Ban Tai and Ban Kai also option.