Krenjai

The Two Men Charged With the Thai Backpacker Murders Face a Dubious Trial

The two Burmese migrant workers accused of killing a pair of British backpackers on an idyllic Thai beach appearedin court to be formality indicted Thursday. But there are growing fears that any trial will be a sh

http://time.com/3617617/thailand-koh-tao-murder-david-miller-hannah-witheridge-indictment/

From the article link

"However, they spent only two hours on Koh Tao after arriving by helicopter and did not meet with either the accused or their legal team. Their findings have still not been released."

Well well well, this looks like an incredible amount of time invested by Sherlock Holmes & Co. to look, cheerio mates!

Boomerangutang you have repeatedly stated that the headman's people did it.

Even in the post I replied to.

Understandably, even the RTP called them the head-suspects after which the head investigator was promoted out of there, was he on drugs?

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run

Eighth Region Police Command commissioner Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen identified the first suspect as Mon. He is the brother of a village headman in Koh Tao.He was arrested after evidence which police collected were examined and proved he was involved, he said. He also said another suspect is also a son of that village headman. But he has already to Bangkok. He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders. He said the southern police were coordinating with the metropolitan police to hunt him down, and expected to apprehend him today. The southern police chief also assured the public that there was no arrest of scapegoats in this murder case as it now is a focal attention of the world. He also dismissed any suggestion of local mafias or influential people that could twist the investigation with promise that local influence would pose no obstacle to the police investigation. Instead the police will eliminate all these mafias, he said. Meanwhile a police source said the police are also looking into the cooperation of those who helped to arrange the suspect to escape. They also will be arrested.

It is worthwhile remembering that the only reason that the families were given such copious and convincing Thai police evidence by British police is because of the unseemly and uninformed speculation online mainly by Thais who are sick to death of the criminal activities of their own police. Without that they would have been no petition and pressure for an independent UK police investigation (which didn't take actually take place) and David Cameron would never have buttonholed General Prayuth in Milan to ask for UK police to go to Koh Tao. There are many similar cases like the British youth recently murdered in a Greek disco where the British government refuse to get involved at all, even at the request of families.

The point is that the whole social media pressure is not driven by people in Thai Visa. It is driven by Thai people writing in Thai who want to see justice in their country and to make Thailand a safer place for their families and friends and for foreign visitors alike. They are sickened by all the reports of murders of foreigners that are not properly investigated by corrupt police but these foteign victims are just the tip of the ice berg because they are dwarfed by the number of Thai victims who will never receive justice.

You are correct......that is Thailand. Lovely beaches, lovely food, lovely people but also some very bad & evil people corrupted to the bone willing to sacrifice two young lads by framing them with swapped DNA samples, forced confessions by a pancake vendor and a report which mentions only one murder weapon which didn't even carry David his DNA. And the Scotland Yard clowns were happy with what they observed? What a F-joke! The families deserve better!

OK, ALL IMHO, lets see the perfect case evidence.....which we won't even see if they plead guilty. Wow this stinks! My goodness! Yeah yeah......I am not a conspiracy theorist, I just read the incredible events from day one!

The Thai PM made very clear that the Brit experts were allowed to come to Thailand as observers only. 'Observers' are allowed to look at things, and maybe ask a few questions, but not much more. With all due respect to the families, I'd still like to see British DNA data, if garnered independently. If Brit police merely took what the RTP told them, and passed it on to the families, then we're still in a similar soup as before this announcement. Reminder: The Brit police were explicitly told NOT to do any independent investigating while in Thailand.

Fully agree, and yes, we are still in the same soup if there is no independent verification of the DNA. If Sherlock Holmes & Co. were only observing the RTP will have shown them matching DNA evidence and of course matching DNA is powerful and convincing evidence if you believe it hasn't been tampered with. As long as we have not seen this, the speculation will continue, sorry!

I have read that comment over many times. It actually supports neither side. It does say the b2 have a lot of difficult questions to. Something we all know. It does recognize and thank amnesty international for their help.it says the brit police have been asked to withhold private information and let the thai courts proceed with their justice.it is correct that the brit should not publish a finding that may or may not be in conflict with the thai court.

At no time does it say the b2 seem to be guilty.

Going by this report. It seems all information is in the right hands. There is nothing more for us to do.

I still believe the b2 innocent

You are correct the statements from the victims families is very well worded but they want the truth and the B2 To be given a fair trial , now it will be up to the defence to put up a very strong argument and they may win and prove these that these boys are not Guilty.

Then the police will have to start a complete new investigation and the the real killers will be found.

I don't think these boys are guilty either and will wait until accused guilt is beyond reasonable doubt .

Dream on, the verdict is guilty! How can they rebut matching DNA? They cannot! So again YES, the evidence appears to be powerful and convincing because that is exactly what a DNA match is: powerful and convincing! Put on top of that some circumstantial RTP crap and your verdict will & can only be guilty!

I will say this a 100 times, if Scotland yard did not do independent DNA testing on the bodies (if it was still possible) against fresh B2 samples EVERYTHING else is meaningless, unless of course suddenly we have credible eyewitnesses.

I have read that comment over many times. It actually supports neither side. It does say the b2 have a lot of difficult questions to. Something we all know. It does recognize and thank amnesty international for their help.it says the brit police have been asked to withhold private information and let the thai courts proceed with their justice.it is correct that the brit should not publish a finding that may or may not be in conflict with the thai court.

At no time does it say the b2 seem to be guilty.

Going by this report. It seems all information is in the right hands. There is nothing more for us to do.

I still believe the b2 innocent

I also agree if somebody shows you a matching DNA sample you did a crime you will indeed have a difficult time to answer this as this appears to be powerful and convincing. So again the missing piece of the puzzle will be and always should have been conclusive independent DNA testing of the bodies against fresh B2 samples if that was still possible after the bodies were repatriated. If not, many many people will never believe the outcome of this, I being one of them.

A few notes.....all circumstantial evidence is and will remain circumstantial. The key evidence will be the MATCHING DNA

Do you think the parents of D&H did ask the British investigators about the possibility the DNA samples have been swapped? I am sure most will agree this questions was asked. So, how did these British Investigators answer this?

With a yes, we thought about that but we have not seen any proof of this or......

With a no because we did our own independent DNA tests and the results matched.

If they conducted DNA tests on the bodies back in the UK and compared the results with new & fresh independent samples of the B2 we should all rest our case! If however, this independent DNA testing was not possible anymore for whatever reason (or has not been conducted), I will never believe in a million years the B2 did it and INDEED they will have a difficult case to answer!

So read the statements again assuming there is no independent conclusive DNA evidence.....until I know that answer to that question, I rest my case and respect the parents wishes.

One problem remains however, if they plead guilty, we will never see the RTP evidence in full..... uh oh !!

ok tingtong point taken. but i think it was one poster talking about vigillantes. not all of us think that but there are bigger players in samui that probably pissed off with this familly on kt. im talking about other Thais.

So you are saying a Thai version of Charles Bronson is on its way to deal with The Bad Boys from KT vigilante style? LOL!

http://www.glockforum.net/forum/attachments/off-topic-discussion/2842d1385922368-knock-out-game-vigilante-sought-thanksgiving-day-shooting-charles-bronson-quotes-3.jpg

Have any of you who believe the boys are innocent and support their cause considered going to the court cases to show them your support in person? I realize that most of you are not in Samui, but I just wondered if anybody who is here had thought about it.

Yes, thought about that one, and what if 100.000 people would show up? Do you think that help the B2? I think yes! Unfortunately we are all too busy with our own lives!

If they have that many dis-advantages coming to Thailand, work, immigration, being beaten up all the time, being made scape goats, then why risk it, and if they get charged for illegal working etc, why do the Thai people who employ them get nothing done to them, innocent or not I don't know, the same as their lawyers have not seen all the evidence like us, I am reserved, and if you are facing a death penalty and your friends will not help you then they are not your friends sorry, they may be charged for illegal working, but I believe they will be protected due to the severity of the case, so why not go and see their lawyers,

Do you, or have you ever lived in Thailand?

Also,

First of all Myanmar, is a very poor country and in Thailand they earn triple of what they would earn back home.

FYI:

http://www.thaizer.com/culture-shock/kreng-jai/

This is true for most Asian cultures, people will NOT speak up to higher authority and even if asked they will not necessarily tell the truth but more likely what you want to hear!

"The concept of kreng jai can also be frustrating for many tourists because it doesn’t encourage Thai people to express exactly what they think. Instead, they may give you the answer that they think you want to hear"

Hannah Witheridge, the British forensics and Scotland yard are now the key to all this. In my opinion forensics in the UK will have found DNA on Hannah and have their own results of this. They will also know if the body will have been purposely ''Cleaned in an attempt to hide evidence'' either way this will be the case. Secondly obtaining DNA from the 2 boys is not a big undertaking. I am sure Scotland yard will have obtained it somehow either directly or indirectly if the Thai authorities refused to offer it too them. This has to be the starting point as far as the 2 boys are concerned, can Scotland yard or will Scotland yard release a statement saying they can prove that these two boys DNA is a match or not? If not then the Thai authorities have a serious chose to make. Do they undermine the evidence given to them by one of the most respected forensics people on earth or will they think of the consequences of disregarding what Scotland yards Forensics find. I am sure that now these boys have been officially charged the British will now make their move.

I think you're living in a "Fantasy Island of Wishful Thinking", this is not going to happen IMO. IF indeed Scotland Yard would hold such a trump-card, they would have played it by now, don't you think? So, if true what you say, what "consequences of ignoring" are you talking about? I bet most Thais never even heard of Scotland yard. On top of that, it is easy for the Thais to put a Thai-spin to that story, if such a story would ever emerge. I am afraid it will be too late for B2.

The wise thing for them to do now is to plead guilty to avoid certain death and hope that the world will not forget and pray for a miracle. I hope the lawyers will tape that new confession and explain why they plead guilty.

BTW : What happened to the mysterious Number 3 report who claimed the RTP already got the trump-card which is apparently also referring to a gunshot wound?

All is speculation and therefore all posts by everybody should end with IMHO (in my humble opinion).

IMHO

You are right everything is speculation, and on many parts blown way out of proportion, we don't really know what happened, as we have not seen all the evidence, we have only seen the Thai bullshit of the evidence, we all know the BIB are full of shit and lies, but hey maybe they are guilty, who knows; YET

As I stated before, them being guilty is the same as snow falling on Koh Tao on Christmas day! Yes, IMHO!

If they have that many dis-advantages coming to Thailand, work, immigration, being beaten up all the time, being made scape goats, then why risk it, and if they get charged for illegal working etc, why do the Thai people who employ them get nothing done to them, innocent or not I don't know, the same as their lawyers have not seen all the evidence like us, I am reserved, and if you are facing a death penalty and your friends will not help you then they are not your friends sorry, they may be charged for illegal working, but I believe they will be protected due to the severity of the case, so why not go and see their lawyers,

Do you, or have you ever lived in Thailand?

Hannah Witheridge, the British forensics and Scotland yard are now the key to all this. In my opinion forensics in the UK will have found DNA on Hannah and have their own results of this. They will also know if the body will have been purposely ''Cleaned in an attempt to hide evidence'' either way this will be the case. Secondly obtaining DNA from the 2 boys is not a big undertaking. I am sure Scotland yard will have obtained it somehow either directly or indirectly if the Thai authorities refused to offer it too them. This has to be the starting point as far as the 2 boys are concerned, can Scotland yard or will Scotland yard release a statement saying they can prove that these two boys DNA is a match or not? If not then the Thai authorities have a serious chose to make. Do they undermine the evidence given to them by one of the most respected forensics people on earth or will they think of the consequences of disregarding what Scotland yards Forensics find. I am sure that now these boys have been officially charged the British will now make their move.

I think you're living in a "Fantasy Island of Wishful Thinking", this is not going to happen IMO. IF indeed Scotland Yard would hold such a trump-card, they would have played it by now, don't you think? So, if true what you say, what "consequences of ignoring" are you talking about? I bet most Thais never even heard of Scotland yard. On top of that, it is easy for the Thais to put a Thai-spin to that story, if such a story would ever emerge. I am afraid it will be too late for B2.

The wise thing for them to do now is to plead guilty to avoid certain death and hope that the world will not forget and pray for a miracle. I hope the lawyers will tape that new confession and explain why they plead guilty.

BTW : What happened to the mysterious Number 3 report who claimed the RTP already got the trump-card which is apparently also referring to a gunshot wound?

All is speculation and therefore all posts by everybody should end with IMHO (in my humble opinion).

IMHO

People outside Thailand are not powerless, just disinterested as the flow of tourists to KT indicates. If people boycotted tourism and goods, you'd see something truly rare, local officials actually running in a hurry to set things right and appease the dollar.

I am afraid people outside Thailand are powerless and people will not boycott Thailand. In fact the only people who seem to follow this case are of course the Thais, the expats living in Thailand and abroad and the people with some sort of connection to Thailand. The main stream public has no clue and they will go on Holiday as before. KT maybe needs some time to recover, but yesterday I spoke to somebody who just booked a holiday to the Samui archipelago and told him about the KT murders...........he had no clue!

That is the sad truth, and in a few years nobody will hardly talk about this case anymore. Things will go back to "normal" in KT for Cool & The Gang!

Nobody can save the B2, not Scotland Yard, not you, not me.

One can only hope for a miracle now!

I am going to predict that the defence lawyers will advise the B2 to plead guilty to the charges to avoid a certain death penalty if they choose to plead not -guilty. The prosecutor will make it quite clear that the outcome is pre-determined - it has to be, because it can be the only satisfactory outcome from Thailand's POV in that the case is concluded with the B2 admitting guilt.

A 900 page report including witness statements, DNA evidence, and items stolen from one victim, will persuade the judge that the charges are beyond reasonable doubt.

The alternative would be to appeal the pre-determined guilty sentences right up to the Supreme court and pray...

I am afraid you are right.......they will be found guilty, they have no choice. Anything else like acquittal, throwing out the case, a not guilty verdict will be loss of face for the RTP. Nobody can change this and nobody can do anything about this.

Scary stuff!

Disgusting, but I am sure a "deal" has been done already.

A few days in court, then the trial stopped on a technicality. Burmese released and the RTP publicly announce that they feel the Burmese did it, hence no new investigation.

Everyone happy, no loss of face, especially Mr Head man and his mob.

A tragedy and a waste of two young lives.

Thailand...I hope karma comes back and hammers you, and to the real perpetrators of that evil island, your time will come.....

The judge must certainly know what the situation and background is and lot of this will depend on whether he is an honest judge or just part of the corrupt system as he looks at the evidence. Getting the trial thrown out would be a fantastic first step in this case so perhaps there is some hope for the two Burmese.

Agree with your comments, but what do you think? Is it safe to assume the judge that will handle this process has been carefully chosen same a la Nomsod DNA test?

Here is what the Guardian wrote 6 minutes ago:

Thawatchai Saengjaew, chief of the Public Prosecution’s Region 8 Office, told the Bangkok Post that authorities would indict Zaw Lin, 21, on five counts – the murder of Miller, the rape and murder of Witheridge, illegal entry into Thailand and staying in the country without permission. Win Zaw Htun, 21, faces the same charges and an additional count of stealing a mobile phone and sunglasses from Miller.

First the mobile phone saga, now the sunglasses? Wow! Didn't hear about that one before! Makes sense to carry your sunglasses with you at night, does it? Any pictures of David carrying his sunglasses around that night? Is this the missing piece of crucial evidence that couldn't be disclosed to the public? This whole case is beyond evil.......

i see a scotish kid has had to go into hiding for posting on facebook that he new who did it,

he was told he was going to die,,

its in the scotish record

This has been extensively debated on here........this Sean character also rebutted this on YouTube and his Soundcloud etc:

He claims he meant: IF he was going to be found killed, he knew who did it (the killing of himself).

Anyway, it doesn't matter, I think it is safe to say the guy ha a pretty good idea who was involved,,,,,

The cut on his arm (he claims from a bike accident) and the blood on his guitar (which he didn't wash off for days) makes him suspicious he knows more.

I think we will just never know,,,... the British police did question him I think......and that is the end of that story!

You will not hear about this in the trial!

Someone last night on here ( excuse me but I forgot the username) said the report from the police was in Thailand and indicated gunshot wounds to Hanna

If that was true, excuse the pun, but this case would literally be blown apart.

And people of interest on that island have a keen interest in guns.

It doesn't matter anymore, this has now become the OJ-Thai style court, "if it doesn't fit you must acquit" will change to "if the DNA fits we must convict".

"I confess that I stole black iphone 4 which belongs to David Miller. I also did kill David and Hannah and stole the belongings from Davids shorts. It was the police who taken the cellphone back."

The above is the official confession of one of the B2 that was later retracted.

The document that this translation was taken from is online for everyone to see and is signed by the RTP and one of the B2. It also has a photo of the B2 suspect being questioned at the 'safe house'. This document looks authentic but take it as it is, its not verified so cannot guarantee its the real one. If the scant autopsy report that was published is real and is anything to go by then this goes in keeping with the lack of details that are required in Thailand for court cases.

Of course we have yet to see if the judge takes this confession into account because of the retraction and of course we also have the allegations that the confession was made under torture or threat of torture.

If the judge does take it into consideration then I would say there's absolutely no hope for a fair trial along with all the other failings that currently exist on the evidence and lack of evidence.

If you'd like to find the document online pm me

If thats all they have its pathetic.

That is not exactly a detailed confession in anyones eyes..

Correct, however, I start to believe it doesn't matter anymore what was said by whom at what time under what circumstances. The cards have been dealt long time ago as some have correctly posted and predicted here.

It's like OJ, a blood trail from the murder scene to his house, blood spatters in the bronco, a DNA match with his blood, Nicole & Ron, a missing knife, bloody shoe prints in the walkway, a bloody glove at his estate and the other glove at Nicole's, a cut at his finger, his escape in the Bronco and the list goes on and on, we all know the verdict: NOT GUILTY of course...

This case will be the same:

It's like the B2, no blood trail from the murder scene to their place, no blood spatters in their apartment, no DNA match on the hoe from David, the missing murder weapon on David was never found, no matching foot prints in the sand, no bloody clothes in their room, no cuts no bruises on them, no escape attempt and the list goes on an on, and the verdict? GUILTY of course....