rockingrobin

Aleg attention to detail is wavering,

With reference to Mon and Sean

http://www.chiangraitimes.com/police-release-suspects-in-murder-of-two-brits-in-koh-tao.html

' Mr. Montriwat discredited the Briton’s claim saying in fact on the night of the murder an employee of a spa has told him she helped to wash and clean blood from the face and body of Mr Sean who is a friend of the murdered David Miller '

which is mutually exclusive to Sean's account

and then there was the report that Joc (spa employee) was reluctant to talk to the RTP because they had declared the dna was asian

AleG, I really haven't a clue about what you are referring to, but if the only "fact" you can produce is a conversation between CSILA and Sean McAnna, then there's nothing unusual about that. I think most on here are aware that CSILA (presumably your "conspiracy theorists") during the course of their "investigations", managed to contact not only McAnna but also some guy called Tom who is pictured with Hannah in CCTV footage the night she was murdered. Tom was quite happy to answer the questions put to him.

"AleG, I really haven't a clue about what you are referring to"

You don't?

"but if the only "fact" you can produce is a conversation between CSILA and Sean McAnna, then there's nothing unusual about that. I think most on here are aware that CSILA (presumably your "conspiracy theorists") during the course of their "investigations", managed to contact not only McAnna but also some guy called Tom who is pictured with Hannah in CCTV footage the night she was murdered. Tom was quite happy to answer the questions put to him."

So you do...

That you consider cyberstalking as being "nothing unusual" really speaks volumes about yourself.

As opposed to Mon accusing and harassing Sean

No disrespect but will the average Thai person read 107 or whatever pages of constitution? I wouldn't !

I would suspect the majority of Thais will not read the constitution , because they know , just as history as taught them , come 1,3, 5 , 10 years or however long, a coup will occur and the constitution abolished for the whole facade to stat again

I think Johnch1213 is acting like a petulant child in a school playground , deviously trying to fabricate a situation solely in an attempt to embarrass

a certain poster in an act of shameful revenge .

Quite clearly 7by7 stated it was his understanding , and posted a link to the required information,

Johnch1213 you could have been more gracious and polite , use the term 'I think you are mistaken ', and the reasons why.

The whole purpose of this forum is about immigration matters, which at best is convoluted and confusing , and nobody claims to be an expert on all matters. People will have different opinions and experiences and that is to be expected, however with the aid of the forum members and their input we have a better chance to negotiate the pitfalls without getting into personal squabbles which ultimately serve nobody. Honesty and gratitude should be expected by everybody

jdinasia

again just asserting a false dichotomy , in an attempt to justify your stance and disprove others

Your excuses for no pictures or people coming forward certainly doesn't explain why no foreigners have spoken out.

How can you and Crab be so sure no foreigners have spoken out? You and AleG, often chastize others for presuming to know what's going on behind the scenes, yet you're doing it in your statement. Brit investigators have purportedly been questioning some farang who may be privy to some of what went on that night. Unfortunately for the defense, it looks as tho that info will get to the prosecution only. I hope I'm wrong about that.

Publicly ---

Nothing - Nada - Zilch

jdinasia

you appear to be basing your argument on false dichotomy

Let's not forget about this -

The new developments come as police said they were hunting a western woman seen running near the beach in Koh Tao on Sunday.

Police refer to Westerners as ‘foreigners’ but officers would not comment whether the woman might turn out to be Hannah Witheridge herself, fleeing from the killer or killers who were to soon battered her to death on Koh Tao’s idyllic Sairee Beach.

CCTV footage of the woman - who might also turn out to be a terrified witness to the double murders - has yet to be released.

or this -

Thai police inquiries have been branded a 'joke' by locals after investigators mistakenly identified a couple in CCTV footage walking hand-in-hand as the murdered Brits.

or this

DNA samples taken from the scene do not match those of any of a reported 12 suspects.

Officers claimed they had 'strong evidence' to link six Burmese workers to the gruesome murders, though no forensic links could be made.

Police later say Miss Witheridge may not have been raped as first suggested following an autopsy on her body.

Or him -

number 9.jpg

Catsanddogs

The running western woman , it needs to be established at what point during the investigation the police made the statement, had Hannah already been identified on some other cctv,

If police had already some cctv footage of Hannah before making this statement then the running westerner could not be Hannah as there would be no need to look for her (hunting)

Post 597 JDinAsia

' Not surprisingly you don't mention.

>>>>- looked for and found absolutely no evidence to support any conspiracy theories - and thusly cleared previous suspects due to one being in BKK and the other one not having a tattoo '

Who is the person with the tattoo and what cctv footage are they referring ?

If I recall correctly it was Mon and not the RTP who disclosed the tattoo

With refarance to the Condom , a couple of points

When blood is found on a piece of evidence or item then this is not usually described as dna , but as blood

If blood was indeed discovered on the condom then how can it be declared as having no relevance

Aleg

For further context (Nomsod), to be taken with fathers comments , returning to uni and not running

OK another article

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Police-free-bar-owners-and-look-for-ex-village-hea-30243997.html

A police source said the man they want to find landed on the Surat Thani coast and disappeared. Police say they want to interrogate him first

One of the two men released last night, who reporters did not identify, said he was unable to contact his son and did not know if he had a hand in the killings

Pol Lt-General Panya Mamen, who is overseeing the investigation, said yesterday that the headman's son is believed to be hiding in Bangkok. Panya refused to reveal the suspects' names, saying police were questioning one man and expected to arrest another in Bangkok today

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run

He also said another suspect is also a son of that village headman. But he has already to Bangkok

He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders

With regards Nomsod , being on island , not being on island , to me the most convincing clue which has not yet been clarified is the fathers comment

He was returning to uni and not fleeing,

Who was he referring to when he apparently made this statement ?

Yes - and the question is 'returning from where'?

You skipped the "if" before starting with the "why"s. First you have to establish if he said that and in reference to what question and when.

Picking up a single quote (translated from Thai by a notoriously error prone media) ignoring any context and then trying to assign some grand significance to it is disingenuous.

To give context

Police questioned why Wiraphan’s son Warot, 22 quickly disappeared from the island shortly after the murders however he stated that his son was studying at a university in Bangkok and he was returning to study, not running as the police said.

They are also consulting lawyers to consider legal action for such allegations by the police that they were involved

http://www.chiangrai...in-koh-tao.html

With regards Nomsod , being on island , not being on island , to me the most convincing clue which has not yet been clarified is the fathers comment

He was returning to uni and not fleeing,

Who was he referring to when he apparently made this statement ?

JLCrab

I suppose they dont have choirs in uk

If this the level of comprehension and logic you have utilised during the RTP investigation into these murders then it does not surprise me that you cannot see the forest for the trees

Have you ever heard the expression "preaching to the choir"?

Actually, the expression is "preaching to the converted".

'Preaching to the choir' means you are trying to make believers out of people who already believe, or convince people who are already convinced

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=preaching+to+the+choir

Preaching to the choir is almost certainly a follow on from Preaching to the converted , as it represents the same idea

and I would regard it as an Americanism of the saying

That still 'grab' from the CCTV is the day before the murders. It's 6 hours prior, for kryssache. So, we've got 3 boys riding a motobike, and that proves.....? ....it proves that 3 boys were on a motorbike 6 hours prior to the crime, and not much else. Oh, not wearing helmets. So now the cops can also bust 'em for being 3 on a bike and not wearing helmets. Oh, how about busing them for not using a turn signal to make a left turn.

Meanwhile, there are the several CCTV videos of 'running man' taken within minutes of the crime, very near the crime scene. For over a week, police were sure it was a particular young man, and were looking for him, but he was hiding. When found, his lawyer waved around a couple grainy b&w photos, so the young man was let off scot free, never to be looked at again as a suspect. The police have never announced, since then, that the man was not 'running man'. The general public is supposed to assume that, because the man was let off the hook.

In Thailand, a farang can get thrown in jail and told to pay 3 million baht (or spend the next 20 years in jail) for contributing to a motorbike crash which resulted in a few bruises. But a Thai man (who is well-connected and has a rich daddy) who strongly appears to have been involved in a double murder - can get off with nary a minute behind bars, no mention of a fine, no further questions, and no chance of ever being investigated in the future. From the moment his high priced lawyer waved the two B&W photos to the press corps, the Thai man was permanently free and clear.

This is a lie:

"For over a week, police were sure it was a particular young man, and were looking for him, but he was hiding. When found, his lawyer waved around a couple grainy b&w photos, so the young man was let off scot free, never to be looked at again as a suspect. The police have never announced, since then, that the man was not 'running man'."

Nomsod was identified as a suspect on the 23rd of September:

"He also said another suspect is also a son of that village headman. But he has already to Bangkok." (September 23, 2014 3:18 pm)

He was cleared by the 25th of September (in case you don't know that is less than "over a week)

"Khaosod, 25 September 2014: ...police questioned Mr. Warot and established that he was not on the island when the murder took place, deputy police chief Pol.Gen. Ake Angsananond said yesterday. Therefore, he is no longer being treated as a potential suspect, Pol.Gen. Ake said."

But we've been through this before, haven't we?

Now let me expose you just how dishonest you are, this are some of the previous instances you've made the same false claims and been proved wrong:

Here (08 May 2015)

Here (06 May 2015)

Here (26 Mar 2015)

Here (13 Jan 2015)

All that you've said is on record and you have been proven (again) to have no credibility whatsoever.

And then we have this

Police questioned why Wiraphan’s son Warot, 22 quickly disappeared from the island shortly after the murders however he stated that his son was studying at a university in Bangkok and he was returning to study, not running as the police said.

They are also consulting lawyers to consider legal action for such allegations by the police that they were involved

http://www.chiangraitimes.com/police-release-suspects-in-murder-of-two-brits-in-koh-tao.html

Yes, he was big, they are small, so?

I suggest an experiment to help you understand things better, ask a child to have a go at your head, from behind, with a hoe; as hard as he can muster.

But before please ask a next-of-kin to come back to us with the results since I don't think they have invented an online Ouija board yet.

As for Whiteridge you, or anyone else that wasn't there, don't know how she reacted or how was she was subdued. It takes about two seconds to come up with ways that could have played out, for example one blow to Miller from behind, knocking him out immediately followed by another to Whiteridge knocking her out too, But it seems that you are limiting yourself to scenarios that don't make sense in order to reach the conclusion that it couldn't possibly had been the two Burmese; in other words, tailoring your premises so that they lead to the conclusion you selected beforehand.

Aleg

Are you forgetting that there was indications he fought with his attacker

No, there were indications that he may have fought with his attackers. Not the same, is it?

Aleg

Can you provide a link for timing of their dna being taken

Why don't you ask one of the armchair detectives claiming that the photo showing at least one of them in line to have samples taken proves (beyond any reasonable doubt) that they were tested and cleared before they were arrested? I'm not going to waste time looking for the date of that photo all over again so it can be ignored for the nth time.

I am asking because of the claim that one of them fled a couple of days after having their dna taken, the photo you allude to is from around the 16th/17th september

Why does being in Surat Thani pier mean he was fleeing? I live on an island and going to the mainland is a something that needs to be done as island groceries etc are double the price.

Important to me and I imagine very pertinent to Burmese immigrants trying to save money.

Oh, just a coincidence then. Add that to the coincidence that it was a couple days after they had their DNA samples taken, a day or so after the police announced the imminent arrest of the suspects and the biggest coincidence of all that those two men, out of the entire population of Koh Tao that were "framed" to be "scapegoats" by the police happened, just happened to had "found" David Miller's phone on the night of the murders, a phone that was found after their arrest.

Yep, all a series of unfortunate coincidences, sure, right.

Aleg

Can you provide a link for timing of their dna being taken

To those That believe these two men did this. Am I to believe that these two small framed men on some sort of randomly enduced psychotic rage (that both Of them experienced simultaneously) were able to subdue and rape Hannah while at the same time managed to beat to death the 190 cm tall, fit and young David Miller? I am having an extremely hard time believing that is the way it went. Not to mention the complete shambles of a police 'investigation' that followed.

Yes, he was big, they are small, so?

I suggest an experiment to help you understand things better, ask a child to have a go at your head, from behind, with a hoe; as hard as he can muster.

But before please ask a next-of-kin to come back to us with the results since I don't think they have invented an online Ouija board yet.

As for Whiteridge you, or anyone else that wasn't there, don't know how she reacted or how was she was subdued. It takes about two seconds to come up with ways that could have played out, for example one blow to Miller from behind, knocking him out immediately followed by another to Whiteridge knocking her out too, But it seems that you are limiting yourself to scenarios that don't make sense in order to reach the conclusion that it couldn't possibly had been the two Burmese; in other words, tailoring your premises so that they lead to the conclusion you selected beforehand.

Aleg

Are you forgetting that there was indications he fought with his attacker

Aleg

I think you are being a bit dis ingenious , with regards the article you linked to in post 103 , reference focusing on migrant workers ,

http://asiancorrespondent.com/126768/thai-police-question-british-men-over-koh-tao-murders/

The article refers to cctv footage where an uknown man is seen with an asian woman is mistaken for Hannah and David

The article just illustrates that the miss information if it exists originated from the RTP

I am an enthusiastic supporter of functional skills requirements for those settling in the UK. FLR is a temporary status with few rights beyond staying in the UK for a fixed time. It seems reasonable to expect the skills to have improved after two or so years living here so progression to a higher level seems appropriate.

Courses to improve English skills are not cheap for newly arrived non-EU citizens. There are no subsidies and to expect someone to face all the costs with visas, health surcharges etc to then have to face college fees of hundreds of pounds seems over the top to me.

There has to be a balance and A1/B1 strikes me as perfectly reasonable. LitUK is definitely much more of an obstacle for most but this is required for ILR.

As it stands the system requires very basic English on arrival. B1 at FLR would require a bit more functional English and ILR a bit more as there has to be a study component.

Again if you had done a little more research then you would have found that most local councils run English courses that allow the person to take the B1 test at the end of it and cost very little and if there partner are claiming any benefits they can also receive a discount on the course cost

Johnch1213

Would you please elaborate

Looks like the same round-and-round arguing, kind of like one of those fatty floaters that refuse to flush.

Unlike the experts making their pronouncements of certainty from the comfort of their computer keyboards, I recently spent a few weeks on KT again. Didn't want to go back but it was the most convenient way for me to up my diving certs. While there, I asked some people I know from previous visits, that is folks I could expect some kind of answer from, about these murders.

I wasn't too surprised to get the exact same answer, even if the wording varied: to choose the most succinct response, it was "we don't talk about that here." This guy, and the others, said it quickly and with either some nervousness and/or lowered voices. The distinct impression was that it's a taboo subject. On top of that, at one of the dive shops I'd frequented where I asked one of the instructors, who's an impressively tough dude (ex-mil diver etc), I noticed a chill in the reception I got the next couple times I stopped by. Maybe just a coincidence or a misinterpretation of mine, but maybe not.

Now, pray tell, if the B2 were indeed guilty, and all these folks knew it or believed so, why would they clam up so nervously? No, they'd say something like "well it's unfortunate that these rumours about the local family/families involvement came up, but fortunately that passed and thank god they caught the monsters who did it." But no, it was a tight lipped "we don't talk about that."

I also had a look at the crime scene a couple of times: there's no indication anything happened there, not that I expected anything else.

So the 2 or 5 very busy commenters here who are so sure they got the right guys, say what you want, but I left the island (for the last time) more sure than ever about what happened, and it wasn't the soft-looking B2 that did it. I suggest you go there yourselves (unless you're already there hint hint) and start asking around openly, make some inquiries without being too discrete, if you're so sure there's no reason to worry about a "conspiracy" or cover-up. One of those tough-guys that populate the island, the ones who act like wise guys, might be happy to make your acquaintance.

I suggest the rest of us, rather than wasting time rather pointlessly debating this issue on the internet (providing new, useful info's another thing), do something to help assure a just outcome, to the extent that's possible.

"Unlike the experts making their pronouncements of certainty from the comfort of their computer keyboards"

"it wasn't the soft-looking B2 that did it."

Evil family imposing the Thai version of omertà, or the people there are fed up with the "Death Island" crowd? I'll guess the former, if anything has been proven in this threads is that people that tie their moral self worth to the innocence of the two Burmese men are not going to be interested in hearing anything to the contrary; so no wonder the people there rather not humor them. I've done the same with people that approach me to talk about the Jews and their schemes, or how the Moon Landings were fake or any other number of topics that demonstrate that they are out to lunch.

Meanwhile, beyond the fancy theories and mind reading, there is enough real, physical evidence to implicate those two in the murders, for example in the last hearing they admitted of having David Miller's phone, I had a bit of a morbid curiosity to hear what new, convoluted theory would be concocted to explain that away but... nothing. I guess because "The Police planted Hanna's phone" battle cry is too dear to abandon so better pretend that they never mentioned that they had Miller's phone all along.

So, instead of wasting time with biased anecdotes why not better talk about things directly related to the case? For example I'd like to hear how come, out of all the people on the island the police just happened to pick as "scapegoats" the men that "found" Miller's phone. Because the phone was rediscovered after they were arrested (not to mention the witnesses that said they were given the phone to dispose of it well before the arrests) so either it was a fantastic coincidence or they have the right people.

Science, and the scientific method is the best tool humanity has to understand the world, here's a brief intro of how it works, you have a mystery, you create an hypothesis and test it against the real world, if you discover that those tests validate your theory then you know your hypothesis was correct.

So when the police caught those two men and subsequently evidence was found confirming their involvement (they having the phone in this case) that hypothesis is validated until a better theory can be constructed. So far the only alternative theories are the conspiracy variety, that rely on conjecture, specious logic and willfully ignoring the real world evidence in order to pin the murders on someone else, sorry but no no sale, I'll take the one grounded on reality and mutually validating evidence.

They had one of the victim's phone, their DNA was inside the other victim, they were close to the murder scene at the approximate time of the murders, no alibi placing them anywhere else, one tried to flee the island shortly after having DNA samples taken, they confessed to the police, their own lawyers and the UNHRC, their defense up to this point, amounts to "we were too drunk to remember anything"; that all adds up to a strong case against them.

Some of the points you make are not in the public domain or you are mistaken

Heres another one that mentions the case has been rescheduled dated the 27th December 2014. Rescheduled from when ? the middle of 2015.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Koh-Tao-murder-trial-rescheduled-30250774.html

You carry on with your lies At least jd enjoys them.

Heres a snippet of the link.

"

The trial of two Myanmar men accused of murdering a pair of British tourists on Koh Tao will be heard in the second half of next year, after the Koh Samui Court agreed yesterday to postpone the case.

"

So the judge agreed to postpone the case. Was that the case he started to judge on the 26th of December or the case he started to judge in June 2015 ?

LOL

Not rescheduled.

Strange how this works. First pre-trial hearing was on the 26th of December. On that day they scheduled the dates for the trial the newspaper runs the article on the 27th. The day after the first pre-trial hearing

JD

From reading various reports I tend to agree with Berybert,

It is my understanding that the trial was set to begin Feb2015 , then abruptly brought forward to Dec 26th and subsequently postponed to July 2015

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-30602984

There are other links

Was there any outcome to the chemical residues mentioned in the following article

BANGKOK, Sept 20 —Thai police stepped up their effort to catch the killers of two British tourists Hannah Witheridge and David Miller. The pair was murdered on Koh Tao earlier this week.

Police raided a nightclub on Koh Tao and seized items included narcotics and chemical substances which would compare with chemical residues retrieved from the cigarette butt, the Bangkok Post reported

- See more at: http://www.themalaymailonline.com/world/article/thai-police-raid-nightclub-on-koh-tao-after-double-murder-

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/world/article/thai-police-raid-nightclub-on-koh-tao-after-double-murder-video

Who do the pink coloured flip flops belong to ?, if I recall correctly Hannahs was not wearing pink footwear on the night

You don't recall correctly, she was wearing pink sandals.

Would you please provide the verifiable fact that she was wearing pink sandals