lannarebirth

So, the majority of Thailand still want a Democrat led coalition government. What are the VERY minority reds going to do now?

If that is the case, then why not hold an election and find out? Because the reds would win again? I don't see how that is the VERY minority. So instead you have an unelected government who points to maybe having an election in a year from now. Perhaps by then they will change it so people from the north or northeast only count as 1/5th of a vote, or so that they don't get a vote at all. How is that "Democratic"?

There's no call for an election now because the law doesn't mandate there need be an election now. It is a political decision, within the parameters of the constitution when the election be held. If they decide unwisely they will be punished for their decision. If you think they will be punished by waiting to hold elections, one would think you'd be grateful for that.

BTW are you familiar with the concept of a "loaded question", or "logical fallacy" ?

Why does this woman continue to have rights of appeal when she hasn't served any sentence for tax evasion?

Separate cases. Why shouldn't she have the right to appeal? It is her right by law, regardless of any other cases in the courts.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a Thai show I watched on this subject said appeal could only be granted on the basis of new evidence. Is that correct, and if it isn't what are the criteria?

Ah, found it:

Under the present Constitution, the former prime minister may submit an appeal to the Court within 30 days after the verdict if he has obtained new evidence which could lead to the significant altering of the facts of the case. Then, the general meeting of the Supreme Court will elect five judges, other than those serving in the original case, to sit on the panel to consider such an appeal. The implementation of the court's decision will have to await the appeal process.

http://www.allbusiness.com/government/gove...14050519-1.html

Why does this woman continue to have rights of appeal when she hasn't served any sentence for tax evasion?

Separate cases. Why shouldn't she have the right to appeal? It is her right by law, regardless of any other cases in the courts.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a Thai show I watched on this subject said appeal could only be granted on the basis of new evidence. Is that correct, and if it isn't what are the criteria?

Why does this woman continue to have rights of appeal when she hasn't served any sentence for tax evasion?

Well, they're among the "elite" after all...

Next time lie to the immigration guy

Hey, and why can't you say something tastes delicious and leave it at that?

I'll try not to read your posts on economy anymore.

enough now, where's the iggy button?

welcome to the club!

To be fair neither one is compelling reading.

2) You know he's not a dictator. He can't implement poicy independent of the legislative body, (most of whom would like to see him fail). Also this Northern population needs to make some gestures. He is not even able to travel in those areas at present because of bomb and assasination threats. Maybe they could lighten up on that a bit?

Yes he is not a dictator, he is a good tactician manoeuvring well with the opposition, but he has not yet demonstrated he has the stature of a Great Head of Government.

Do you think a Churchill or a De Gaulle will have hesitated one second to go to Chiang Mai in spite of bombing / assassination threats? He is the leader of the Democrats, he has to obtain from them, enough concessions for negotiating with Northern Rural representatives,

He is in an historical moment, he has to get ride of constraints of his own side: to be a leader and not a follower....

Has he the stature which is required to face the situation? Waiting the coming days

I agree with all that and it remains to be seen if Abhisit has greatness in him. I hope for Thailand's sake he can meet these challanges, because let's face the facts, its him or the Army steps back in, or Thailand becomes failed state. None of that Red movement will ever govern Thailand and I think we all know that.

Maybe > but more likely v .

Well if Abhisit REALLY implements free education for all thais till 15 years then he has my gf's vote

Just how old is your girlfriend?

The reform committee has not completed its work yet but the indications are the overhaul will be extensive. Ironically (again) this will probably make Abhisit still more enemies amongst old guard educators, culture fascists, and entrenched MOE interests.

But TODAY how to get out of this crisis?

Time is against Abhisit, as per today environment, it is clear that next election will be lost by Democrats.

If the Government response is insufficient, troubles and demonstrations will continue and it will cost probably more than what is required by an emergency budget for cooling down the situation.

1) I don't see that what is going on today is a crisis. My opinion might change tomorrow however.

2) I agree abhisit has a time window here to turn things his way. His biggest problem is he's surrounded by alligators and back stabbers who could cut him off at the knees if he is seen to make moves that don't include them. I also disagree the next election would be lost by the Democrats. Sure a majority maybe, but I think they could swing a greater plurality than last election.

3) I think demonstrations will continue in some form regardless of actions taken. They don't quite understand how democracy works here.

I admire your optimism:

1-everything is normal there is no crisis (we have a french song in France "tout va tres bien Madame la Marquise",..... "the barn is burning, your horse is dead, the Castle is in fire, your husband is dead...Everything OK Madame la Marquise)

2- It is in such cicumstances that we will see if Abhisit is a Great man or just a tactician. He has to overpass his own side and has to show he is the PM of all Thais including the Northern rural population. Unfortunately, the current proposals, as they have been explained in this forum, seems very slim, nothing really concrete, just promises under conditions... It look very insufficient to cool down the situation and get the support of the Northern population.

3- yes the demonstrations will probably continue because the 'package" is empty.

2) You know he's not a dictator. He can't implement poicy independent of the legislative body, (most of whom would like to see him fail). Also this Northern population needs to make some gestures. He is not even able to travel in those areas at present because of bomb and assasination threats. Maybe they could lighten up on that a bit?

What do you mean nothing concrete? He's doing a bottom to top overhaul of the entire education system and passed legislation that makes that available to all for free for 15 years. Who else did nearly so much?

As an aside, you don't see any irony in the fact that the police are m/l onboard with this movement as well? What did the rural poor EVER get from the police except grief?

But TODAY how to get out of this crisis?

Time is against Abhisit, as per today environment, it is clear that next election will be lost by Democrats.

If the Government response is insufficient, troubles and demonstrations will continue and it will cost probably more than what is required by an emergency budget for cooling down the situation.

1) I don't see that what is going on today is a crisis. My opinion might change tomorrow however.

2) I agree abhisit has a time window here to turn things his way. His biggest problem is he's surrounded by alligators and back stabbers who could cut him off at the knees if he is seen to make moves that don't include them. I also disagree the next election would be lost by the Democrats. Sure a majority maybe, but I think they could swing a greater plurality than last election.

3) I think demonstrations will continue in some form regardless of actions taken. They don't quite understand how democracy works here.

OK, I am not a supporter of either T or A.

I just find that the social imbalance between northern rural and Bangkokian is dangerous, unfair and not sustainable and it is the priority number one to be fixed.

Can you explain me what is the Abhisit (because he is the PM in command) policy for fixing this problem? What is the Budget and the means allocated and why in the Post, today, the Farmers are threatening to ban voting Democrat?

Many farmers vote Democrat, though they are mostly southern farmers.

Abhisit can tell you what he's done and what he plans to do:

http://www.thaiembassy.sg/announcements/gi...e-year-performa

I'll tell you that nothing will change without expanding the tax base, which is one of his aims. In this endeavour he will be fighting "elites" on behalf of those who say they would not vote fo him. Lessening corruption is a big theme of his and you and I both know it hits the poorest the hardest. Higher tax revenues would see a tripling of police salaries IMO and a culling of those still "bent". You need taxes to pay for that. Poor people don't pay taxes, the rich and middle class do. Pretty ironic really.

OK, thanks for the information but I am not satisfied;

1- It is probably true what you state about the Farmer vote until now. But why TODAY, they are not pleased and are threatening to ban the Democrat vote? Certainly because the Government answer are not satisfactory. to be noticed that the Farmers have avoided to participate to Red Shirts demonstration

2- In the situation we are, good intentions are not sufficient, more as you have underlined an increase of taxes is difficult and due to Elite opponents will be quite limited. In conclusion, this is not at the level of an expected response in such a crisis. Clearly, some projects of the grandiose Bangkok have to be slashed immediately and part of the budget transferred to sustain the rural population which represents 50% of the population. good intentions but too weak, uncertain envelope and at the end lack of credibility in the realisation.

3- Abhisit need to take immediately the dimension of the issue. i give him cedit of Good will, but my mark is : Insufficient in the current circumstances

Of course taxes will be limited, but they have to be established first. When did a tax not go up once established? Additionally Abhisit needs to get going on land reform. Thaksin did that a little bit, primarily for the benefit of his rural moneylenders. Abhisit needs to get rid of a lot of these bad titles farmers have been stuck with forever. THAT will be a tough one. Taxes easy by comparison.

OK, I am not a supporter of either T or A.

I just find that the social imbalance between northern rural and Bangkokian is dangerous, unfair and not sustainable and it is the priority number one to be fixed.

Can you explain me what is the Abhisit (because he is the PM in command) policy for fixing this problem? What is the Budget and the means allocated and why in the Post, today, the Farmers are threatening to ban voting Democrat?

Many farmers vote Democrat, though they are mostly southern farmers.

Abhisit can tell you what he's done and what he plans to do:

http://www.thaiembassy.sg/announcements/gi...e-year-performa

I'll tell you that nothing will change without expanding the tax base, which is one of his aims. In this endeavour he will be fighting "elites" on behalf of those who say they would not vote fo him. Lessening corruption is a big theme of his and you and I both know it hits the poorest the hardest. Higher tax revenues would see a tripling of police salaries IMO and a culling of those still "bent". You need taxes to pay for that. Poor people don't pay taxes, the rich and middle class do. Pretty ironic really.

^ Isn't rice sold internationally in $USD's?

Goddamn that was sad, made me want to cry. This country DOES need a revolution, but of course Thaksin isn't the answer. Why is it so hard to find good people to run this country? Is there no one that would completely rehaul the education system and raise minimum wage and generally just look out for its main population?

Do you mean besides the current PM?

If only ignorance could be taxed, what a boon to the state's coffers that would be.

....If only wealth could be taxed, what a greater boon to the state's coffers that would be!

If that tax were spent only on education to alleviate ignorance what a boon to the state that would be.

We tried busing poor kids to US schools in the better neighborhoods. It was a dismal failure in every respect.

I never get the emoticons right. I was referring to the post before mine. Not Thai people. *Not sure which emoticon goes here*

I repeat again; the debate on Thaksin, Abhisit... is useless and sterile now: it is just a psychodram in which you let off your steam... No interest and boring ... plus sour comments between us on some nationals...It is really of poor interest and not at the height that the events should expect we do and that the Thai Community expect from us.

Most of the posters are expats and cannot vote but we can help our Thai Friends and some of us have interests (including family ones)in this Country that we love. The debate must overpass the individuals, the old Thai political clique is non credible in its whole, but in such circumstances a new generation of leaders may surface on both sides. Today there is an opportunity things can change, we must not sabotage it by sterile and egocentric discussion.

Let us put on the table a consistent set of proposals that cannnot be ignored....This forum is organised by an important media, it is read and has some influence. We have to use this tool on a positive way.

To this forum Community thank you .....

I think most people here are aware of the giant elephants running around in the background of this political drama. It's just that most of us are not bloodthirsty and out for retribution of all that has gone on before. I think most think that if an ABRUPT change comes from that quarter than many many peoples blood will spill and most of us will be on our way out of here. Instead we focus on incremental positive change that can be accomplished in the here and now. Thaksin is an immediate impediment to that change and Abhisit, thusfar, has been a facilitator. maybe all that changes next week, but there's no sense focusing solely on the macro elements and ignoring the micro.

As expatriate, we should be more reserved about giving an opinion on Individual leaders, we should let this to the Thais: more, it is occupying more of this forum and this gives a very negative image of the Expat community: we look like spending our time ridiculing each other. From time to time the arguments are close to insults...particularly, I have assisted to a very low exchange of posts in which our US clleagues were under some unjustified attacks. As everywhere, you have a ratio of idiots and cultured persons and this is very similar throughout our world.

A little of dignity and mutual respect. Our expat community has more to win than to loose with such an attitude.

As I have already stated, the debate on individual leaders is overpassed in the current situation as the thema is no more on the future of the wealth of T but "Class War". We have to seize this opportunity and talk about what has to be changed for the benefit of Thailand and for trying to find an honourable exit to this Crisis. My order of priority is different from yours, I do not consider that 'who is leading" is fundamental (individuals are micro in History) but "Which policy is going to be implemented" is the MACRO.

Actually, I talk about what you call the macro almost exclusively though I consider it not a MACRO element. I've talked about Abhisit's policies and what he needs to bring them about. No other leader has any policies, only schemes.

I repeat again; the debate on Thaksin, Abhisit... is useless and sterile now: it is just a psychodram in which you let off your steam... No interest and boring ... plus sour comments between us on some nationals...It is really of poor interest and not at the height that the events should expect we do and that the Thai Community expect from us.

Most of the posters are expats and cannot vote but we can help our Thai Friends and some of us have interests (including family ones)in this Country that we love. The debate must overpass the individuals, the old Thai political clique is non credible in its whole, but in such circumstances a new generation of leaders may surface on both sides. Today there is an opportunity things can change, we must not sabotage it by sterile and egocentric discussion.

Let us put on the table a consistent set of proposals that cannnot be ignored....This forum is organised by an important media, it is read and has some influence. We have to use this tool on a positive way.

To this forum Community thank you .....

I think most people here are aware of the giant elephants running around in the background of this political drama. It's just that most of us are not bloodthirsty and out for retribution of all that has gone on before. I think most think that if an ABRUPT change comes from that quarter than many many peoples blood will spill and most of us will be on our way out of here. Instead we focus on incremental positive change that can be accomplished in the here and now. Thaksin is an immediate impediment to that change and Abhisit, thusfar, has been a facilitator. maybe all that changes next week, but there's no sense focusing solely on the macro elements and ignoring the micro.

If only ignorance could be taxed, what a boon to the state's coffers that would be.

If it wasn't for the media, I would never know anything is happening in Bangkok. Life in Chiang Mai seems as normal as always.

Same everywhere other than Bangkok. Love the city, but glad I don't live there right now!

Just saw the Aljazeera interview of Abhisit. I have seen him on TV before, but only when speaking Thai. His English is perfect, though he does have a bit of that funny English accent. Just kidding!

Definitely a smart man. Easy going, cool, great answers. Not like the rants of Thaksin. He threw the class war back in Thaksin's face, calling him an elite also. And asking why he wasn't here sleeping on the streets with his followers? The interviewer asked if he promised security for Thaksin if he came back. Abhisit said yes, but he would have to go to jail and serve his term out. Guess Thaksin's ego is too large for that...or he would miss his coffee and cake while lounging in Montenegro...guess I can't really blame him on that one!

If you were brought up in Eton college, you would probably have a funny English accent also.

Actually Abisit was born in Newcastle Upon Tyne, went to Eton and then on to Oxfors University so no wonder he sounds good and he does come across very well.

There are issues that need sorting out, it will take time, who would you trust to sort it out Abhisit or Taksin?

Educate the poor, improve health system, infrastructure and communications for a start, get a plan together that hopefully all sides can agree on with a timeframe and work together not against each other. The Irish issue has taken,is taking time in the UK. Whilst I am at it sort out the payfor promotion game too there is no place for that, merit only. Out of very dark days opportunites arise, anyone out there looking

There is no tax base in Thailand to do all that needs doing. Abhisit is the ONLY PM who has attempted to expand the tax base to broaden the social safety net. When he originally proposed taxation for property and inheritance it went over poorly as you might expect. He needs to get more canny and co-opt this movement to help him attain his goals on their behalf. That's what I'd be telling him if I were his advisor. He would have more than enough votes in Parliament to get this stuff through if the primary beeficiaries of these services were to work with him rather than against him and not for the megalomaniac robber baron Thaksin.

All these changes the Red supporters are screaming for the current government to implement

The current government is copying and implementing a great many of Thaksin's populist policies.

I'm always puzzled at the criticism that a politician didn't "really" care about his constituents but just wanted to win votes.Isn't that what politicians do? Do Obama, Sarkozy,Brown "really" care? Certainly it requires a real stretch of imagination to believe that even a good guy like Abhisit "really" cares about the rural majority.

yes, this govt is putting in place many of the populist programs that Thaksin's govt came up with- why weren't they already in place? Thaksin talked, aside from some minor programs and the 30 baht scheme, never followed thru, or the programs were corrupted by local officials- something this govt is trying to address - perhaps thats why they are meeting such resistance to the rice program. As for most politicians not caring - couldn't agree more. However, Thaksin is calling on "his" people to put themselves in the street- calling for a revolution- while he lies around in luxury. Bit hypocritical, no?

Many times, the "anti-red" posters here, including me, have said if the Reds would only disavow Thaksin, they would have a legitimate claim to make. But as it stands, their main goal continues to be to get a pardon for Thaksin, including a return of his money.

There's very little original policy out there. Chuan came up with the precursor to the 30baht health scheme and OTOP. He had trouble implementing them and "selling" it. Thaksin did much better on the selling aspect but created something unsustainable. Abhisit continues to refine , upgrade and make the system sustainable. In the US sometimes it takes 10 years to see the result of policy changes. Often politicians take credit for thje policies of other administartions. Not much different here in that regard.

I used to work alot with Wat Don Chan but I found they receive alot and alocate it poorly. They have lot's of farang and government help but the kids don't always benefit from it. They also have a large, full warehouse of goods. There is also Vienping Orphanage but they also receive alot of support.

I have shifted my efforts to the Mae Mhae School and Orphanage in Chiang Dao. It's located on a mountaintop and receives almost no help or government support. There are 119 children mostly Lisau. Right now they are in dire need of a water tank. If you ever want to visit let me know. Yu can compare for yourself to the more accesible places.

Sansai sam, Could you or another knowledgable poster please post directions and/or a map to Mae Mhae School and Orphanage? I would like to visit there this weekend. Thanks.

I think this clearly shows the kind of false propaganda and lies that the current government is spreading. A few days ago, they said that Thaksin was basically thrown out of Dubai and that they were told by the officials in Dubai that he wouldn't be let back in. Now he's apparently back in Dubai. I think that says it all.

And Thaksin comparing Abhisit to Hitler starts to make a bit of sense now too, since the Abhisit propaganda team is somewhat like Goebbels was for Hitler.

How do you know he is in Dubai ?

No one has any solid proof where he is at the moment

And what difference does it make so long as he's not here or in custody overseas. I do agree the foreign ministry has cried wolf too many times though.

And perhaps when the Reds go home and the government can get back to business Abhisit can use Kasit's bumblings as the reason to dump him. That appointment was not exactly Abhisits most shining moment, although he was probably under a bit of pressure to give Kasit a post.

Seems to me that would be a smart and concilliatory move.

And in the long run...I also know if I wait long enough you will tell me to take the paper as they want swap it for gold.

The long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead. --JM Keynes (1923)

BTW I tricked the ThaiGF last night into taking useless Dollars converted into useless Baht and the silly girl then acted as if it wasn't fiat after all... Ah, the life of a Pragmatst

and Jazz the alternative is what? Stop caring? Stop debating? Stop learning? WADR Kuhn G the alternative is get off your a-- and start doing.

The hits just keep on coming for Paul Krugman. Today on Press TV, Max Keiser said " Some of the clap trap coming out of Paul Krugman these days, he doesn't seem to have anything more then a highschool social studies level of education" Not allot of people have been saying this stuff about Peter Schiff.

These rhetorical discussions can be fun when you don't have any skin in the game.

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com...-was-wrong.html

I think this clearly shows the kind of false propaganda and lies that the current government is spreading. A few days ago, they said that Thaksin was basically thrown out of Dubai and that they were told by the officials in Dubai that he wouldn't be let back in. Now he's apparently back in Dubai. I think that says it all.

And Thaksin comparing Abhisit to Hitler starts to make a bit of sense now too, since the Abhisit propaganda team is somewhat like Goebbels was for Hitler.

How do you know he is in Dubai ?

No one has any solid proof where he is at the moment

And what difference does it make so long as he's not here or in custody overseas. I do agree the foreign ministry has cried wolf too many times though.