kwilco

This is so not the way to do it - personal experience is worthless especially if it isn't engaged with critical thinking. It normally just results in confirmation bias. As I said earlier - I hae a lot of driving experience in Thiland but my most valuable asset is my training in road safety - and I don't mean police driving theory - although I do have copy of "Road Craft"

Staistics road safety and Emergency services You again are not looking at the big picture but determined to use smaller individual incidents and I'm not even sure what point you hope to make. For instance out of about 30,000 incidents there was ONE reliably reported one about 4 years ago that an ambulance was blocked by a stubborn or unaware driver. The standard of the vehicles, their equipment and training of the staff in them is another more universal problem. It is true however that traffic does not readily part to allow emergency vehicle through – compared to somewhere like Germany – this is a n “E for Education” matter. There is a "golden hour" for serious injury - although not a specific time it is proven that if a patient gets first response treatment of a high standard t at the scene it dramatically improves their chances of recovery and if they then get good emergency service at a hospital the sooner the better. The problem can be very serious - people with relatively minor injuries is not treated ASAP can go into shock an die. Thailand has no systems like this in place. If you come of your bike on Samui or anywhere else for instance there are competing ambulances that will debate on which hospital to take you - they get a fee of the hospitals - there have even been fist fights between ambulance teams over who gets to recover the people (or bodies). Recounting single possible issues isn't a good way to appraise the whole raod safety scenario but an overview of emergency service (E number 4) is could account for a significantly higher number of road deaths.. Unfortunately before one can get a good overview of road safety without relying on anecdotal evidence, guesswork and prejudice one needs reliable statistics. Thai stats are pretty poor and the ones that are available are only partial. however organisations like the WHO can make sense of what is available to a point so we get an overall picture. Again the media don’t look at these stats intelligently – they focus ONLY on one that is the number of deaths per 100k – tere are loads of others that show Thailand in a different light and they should t least be looked at together to get a good international comparison. Those stats include – deaths per miles covered/car ownership, miles covered per vehicle, road miles, density of traffic deaths per accident and one of the most important is the categorising of injuries into - Minor – major – and fatal – Thailand fails to do this. The stats compiled by Thailand don't actually conform to international conventions - only in the last couple of years have they begun to move towards a more compliant format. The problem with all this is that the media, members of the public and eve the government are left to make ridiculous comments on road safety that are completely without evidence or foundation – the myth of the “bad driver” accompanied by confirmation bias are allowed to run rampant – one result of this we ca be sure of is that for 30 years there has been no significant improvement in road safety in Thailand

you need an exercise in critical thinking - you're attitudes to road safety are archaic.

I'm referring to the cover in Thailand, If your rental bikes are taxed, this includes the national insurance scheme, which basically gives riders immediate emergeny medical help but practically nothing else. You then have the problem of damage to your machines and the property of others. A rental company should in theory have this cover too, but it seems that many rely on the belief that te "rich" foreigner renting the bike can pay for any damage. Sadly this is often not the case. The second issue is medical insurance for the renter - firstly they may not have any. They may have insurance not are not aware it doesn't cover motorcycling under "extreme" activities or as I said earlier they may rent a bike over the specified engine size (what size are your wife's bikes???) Then if they are not fully licensed, their insurance won't cover them. It is now the responsibility of te rental company to ensure that anyone they rent to is fully covered under Thai law - e.g. licensed.

You must have the original licence - the IDP is essentially just a translation of that. It is only valid so long as you licence is valid - the police will check the dates correspond and vehicles permitted. Before 2020 you could argue that an IDP wasn't necessary with a UK licence because it has a photo, language and all the necessary categories required for the police to identify. However, since then Thailand has ratified the Vienna convention (1968) which means you need an IDP that relates to the Vienna treaty - you issuer should ask you which treaty. THe IDP lasts for up to 3 years or as long as your licence - whichever comes sooner which is why you need to have both documents.

Read the post I replied to it was the government hospital.

I think people are talking about different insurance types There is the vehicle insurance given by the rental company - which at it's basest, is just the equivalent (or less) of the UK "3rd party" The other insurance is medical care provided in case of injury to th rider (or others) - for a tourist, this is a matter for their holiday insurance. I found out last week that the company I use only covers you for vehicles up to 125 cc. For this you must have A FULL UK MOTORCYCLE LICENCE. This needs now to be accompanied by an IDP with the category for motorcycles stamped on it. Non full licence holders don't qualify. the other problem is that many of the step-throughs for rent these days are 135 to 150 cc which a tourist may not be aware of. If you want to rent a larger bike, you will have to check with your insurance provider and probably take out a special cover clause. THe Thai authorities are clamping down on the motorcycle rental companies and in theory they can be prosecuted for renting bikes to unqualified riders. for instance this February "Legal Action Being Taken Against Motorbike Rental Operators in Patong" - https://thephuketexpress.com/2023/02/10/legal-action-being-taken-against-motorbike-rental-operators-in-patong/ Setting a a motorcycle rental business used to be an easy wa to raise a little cash . -the overheads were low and there is a common contract you can download or get from a law shop. However Thailand is getting wary of the increasing number of patients who can't pay for their treatment for M/C injuries and are trying to do something about it. Phuket is the most "European-ised" of all the provinces, but it is likely that others will soon follow - Samui in particular.

Why did you post these addresses?

I'm not going into the case here, but i can tell you it was pure unadulterated incompetence - you don't even know what kind of cancer it was yet you are already making assumptions. As I have a basic medical knowledge ,but better still a good knowledge of how Thai helthcare works in these places having worked there myself, I was able to see the nonsense going on. I worry about patients who go into Thaihospitals and often treatment falls at the first fence - government or private - they have none primary syatem so diagnosis is just hit or miss. Once they set you off on that trail other options are ignored. With the girl in hospital the difference in attitude and treatment between payers and non-payers is astounding.

what is?

No I'm not I'm reporting various organisations on road safety - including the WHO. citing single or hypothetical incidents is misleading - I'm basing my posts on the hardest evidence available - thousands of crashes and to assess human error, millions worldwide over the years. you need to re-read my bit about humanerror - you are fixating on the extreme end of RTIs tht actually only make up a tiny part of te deaths on Thai roads or in any country.

You'd need to come up with some hard evidence for that. For instance you are LESS likely to die in a 4-wheeled vehicle in Thailand than in the States - regardless of the numbers of people in the back of pickup trucks. although you may see more than 2 people on a motorbike I know o no figures to say what proportion of them are fatalities. We do know that motorcycles account for 4 times more deaths than on 4-wheelers. Whilst pickup are inherently less safe than sedans their are no figures to look at this. vehicles on the roads of Thailand probably go back about 15 years or so - but that in itself isn't unusual so one would expect that the build quality is about the same as other countries. THe "E" for engineering here could play a part as unlike many countries the process for establishing road worthiness in pretty useless. .so not so much original build quality as maintenance quality. I expect that seat belt wearing is a factor, but the wearing of seatbelts is increasing in Thailand, but the death rate still isn't changing. As for speed, I know of no way that anyone can confirm this - the figures suggest that speed being a factor in crashes is more o less exactly the same as it is around the rest of the world. Even alcohol involvement in crashes although at the high end compared to Sweden and UK, is not wildly more than in the USA. As the collision rate in Thailand is similar to that in the UK, I think we do need to look at what happens AFTER a crash starts to unfold - one thing that concerns me is the total lack of a truly standardised first responder and emergency service as well as a follow-up Emergency room service in Thailand. THe UK system - when it works, has an emergency response time of 8 minutes - I've never heard of that being achieved anywhere in Thailand - even if you crashed on a hospital doorstep! As said, a further problem with Thai road deaths is the road environment - once the crash has started the environment is far more toxic that on a well-prepared European road. so I don't think it is any one single factor I think when it comes to fatalities there are a combination of factors that lead to Thailand being a perfect storm

QED - what bout the rest? people are so predictable... and dare I say it? Conceited? I've said all along that human error is common to ALL of us...except you? ...and apparently you think Thai people don't think that way too?

It is a very common illusion that when people are driving in an "alien" environment they get the impression that everythinh is moving much aster - in fact it is their brain working overtime trying to assimilate the unfamiliar

The arrogance of “western” drivers…… Detailed anecdotal descriptions of how “bad” other motorists driving achieve nothing. Without analysis, all they do is reinforce those people’s prejudices about driving in Thailand - i.e. blaming people or even the entire nation, rather than considering the underlying causes. There is also the temptation to attempt simplifying matters by looking for one single solution for the whole problem; a sort of road safety panacea · Patience is something you admire in the driver behind you and scorn in the one ahead. ... A few common truths about how motorists see themselves versus other road users “Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?” - George Carlin “ ….. there are only three types of drivers; the too fast, the timid and oneself.” ― Virginia Graham, Say Please “There are two things no man will admit he cannot do well, drive and make love.” – Stirling Moss Dunning-Kruger effect: - a cognitive bias whereby people with limited knowledge or competence in a given intellectual or social domain greatly overestimate their own knowledge or competence in that domain relative to objective criteria or to the performance of their peers or of people in general. – Individuals do not believe they are dangerous on the roads but at the same time fervently believe others are. • I am not likely to be responsible for an accident; others are likely to be responsible. Therefore, little I can do. • Hence, less likely to need to “plan to avoid them” • Campaigns aimed at dangerous driving are for “other” drivers not themselves. • Such campaigns re-emphasise this difference (2CV, 2008 and Flaming Research, 2008) • The third-person effect (Davison, 1983). • High support for enforcement, engineering solutions and education • But not for themselves - for other people. However, the reality can be a long way from these benighted perspectives

any motorcycle with a tax paid on it will have basic emergency cover, after tht you're on your own. I'm sorry but if hospitals don't think you cn pay they will minimise treatment, and if funds don't come, you'll just slip away.

It depends on the insurance policy and occasionally the whim of the hospital admin - back to ethics.

the hospital that misdiagnosed my cancer!

Playing the blame game is rather unproductive. saying "someone" is always at fault is over simplistic - the truth is usually that "fault" can be attributed to more than one party - a small human error can be exacerbated by someone's lack of skill in diving resulting in failure to avoid an incident that was not of their own making but made worse by their actions. Imaging a guy happily driving down a road when a car ploughs into the side of him - it then transpires that the first driver was completely drunk. One car makes a mistake but the other was drunk. Crashes happen often as the result of "human error" - but this is NORMAL for all human drivers - nobody is perfect all the time - sometimes they get way with it and sometimes they don't. Here's a summary of human error....it's something we ALL do....and accounts for up to 95% of all crashes... Human error is not “bad driving”, it is a normal occurrence. It has been shown that human error falls largely into one of three principle categories[1]. First is a perceptual error. Critical information that is below the threshold for seeing - the light was too dim, the driver was blinded by the glare, or the pedestrian's clothes had low contrast. In other cases, the driver made a perceptual misjudgement (a curve's radius or another car's speed or distance). Or in Thailand, just tinted windows! Second and far more common cause is that the critical information was detectable but that the driver failed to attend/notice because his mental resources were focussed elsewhere. Often times, a driver will claim that s/he did not "see" a plainly visible pedestrian or car. This is entirely possible because much of our information processing occurs outside of awareness. - (Mack and Rock, 1998)[2] Third, the driver may correctly process the information but fail to choose the correct response ("I'm skidding, so I'll turn away from the skid") or make the correct decision yet fail to carry it out ("I meant to hit the brake, but I hit the gas"). Thailand has had a lot of advice from road safety organisations both home and abroad, but somehow this advice does not get taken and is overruled by the archaic “we know best” prejudices of successive ill-informed governments who fail to understand the basic concept of “human error” as opposed to “blame”. [1] https://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/roadaccidents.html [2] (Mack and Rock (1998) have shown that we can be less likely to perceive an object if we are looking directly at it than if it falls outside the centre of the visual field. This "inattentional blindness" phenomenon is certainly the cause of many RTIs)

basically all the models built in Thailand are also built elsewhere - the specification is changed for each country, but the same basic safety features remain the same - you my find older cars don't have as many airbags as export models, you'll find different 4x4 systems and engine options on. the pickups and SUVs and some differences in emissions - up until the 2010s many pickups in Thailand didn't have a heater let alone rear airbags.

As I said earlier I have driven ALL over Thailand and probably more than anyone on this thread. I've also driven in Laos and Malaysia. I have crossed into Laos in about 6 different places from Issan where I also have driven extensively. As I said earlier as well - it isn't the experience, it's what you make of it - for many people that is just an excuse to form bad driving habits In fact the only continents I haven't driven on are South America and Antarctica.. However it's not my extensive experience in driving that I rely on, it is extensive training in Road safety and critical thinking.

As I said ealier - wild and inaccurate sweeping anti- Thai generalisations - the cliiche'd use of third person plural. In fact Thai drivers are very courteous - I suspect you just don't know the Thai code.

what you get from this is confirmation bias - you can find videos like this all over the world 0 including Sweden and Uk - what it demonstrates is peoples inability to to look critically at the media. What you are doing is well documented - it's called Apophenia and refers to the human tendency to see patterns and meaning in random information. It is a type of bias that can disproportionately influence our perception of the world. like all conspiracy theories they have to start with a random grain of truth. People need to practice some critical thinking.

You compare UK and Thai road deaths and then M/Cs and Driving tests. I have actually covered all this before – firstly be aware of the 5 Es – 1. Education 2. Enforcement 3. Engineering 4. Emergency 5. Evaluation I’ve set them out above Firstly UK and Thailand – UK and Thailand have about the SAME number of collisions yet the deaths are different – between 10 and 12 times more in Thailand – so “avoiding each other is not the problem – its more or less the same. So you are assuming a generalisation about Thai drivers that is incorrect – not based on the evidence but based on prejudice. Motorcyclists – account for a huge proportion of road deaths in Thailand between 73 and 80% depending on where you look – In fact the 80% probably represents “vulnerable” road users – this is a category that includes motorcyclists but also other road users – pedestrians cyclists and a few more. Half of the traffic on Thai roads is on 2 wheels and the other half is one vehicles that can inflict a lot of damage to vulnerable motorists this is a very dangerous combination and no effort is made to separate them. – however how and why is not simple – for instance no work is done to improve visibility of motorcyclist e.g. at junctions or obscured by advertising billboards. E for enforcement would also increase the number wearing appropriate crash helmets – which prevent only a certain amount of head injuries but a significant number. So it would make sense for the authorities to address the vulnerability of motorcyclists – one glaring fault is the using of road boarders as “bike lanes” – they are way too narrow for that and also inconsistent. I most EU v=countries they have “think bike” notices and campaigns. You might notice how 4-wheeled vehicles in Thailand make no effort to give space when they pass a motorcycle – in the EU they are respect as another vehicle – this comes under E for education. Then you mention rod tests – these are a bit of a red herring – most westerners took totally laughable road tests – after they pass they believe they then learn by “experience” – in reality they just pick up more bad habits. (Belgium had no driving test until the 1970s and some States in the US allowed children as young as 14 to drive cars – and in Italy -driving tests were just down to corruption – a member of my family went for a test and the Italian instructor watched her start the car and “go on then! Get out! I can see you can =drive! And handed her the pass-slip – she didn’t even need to bribe him - - he just wanted to go for lunch… these countries have overcome poor drivers by adopting the 5Es of the road safety system. If you suddenly introduced and enforced the Thai driving test tomorrow, you’d still have 40 million road users to contend with – the safe system will do that. Thailand now has a very good road test system but you come down to “E-for=enforcement” again. There are undoubtedly loads of unlicensed and uninsured motorcyclists on Thai road =- many of them retirees and tourists…. But this is the result of an incompetent and untrained police force and a court/legal system that is simply not able to prosecute or chase up offenders – why would they when a 100 baht bribe will do? There are moves afoot to implement a points system and enforce it but I suspect, it won’t work very well and it will just result in an increase in tea-money. I don’t think clutching single issues does any good when it comes to the road safety situation in Thailand and no one area will provide the solution – the 5 Es must be applied completely and simultaneously. As for testing – it gives a person a knowledge of the local highway code – the only copy of which was published in 1979. To have any effect it needs to be part of an ongoing, life-long government run public information plane – this has worked all over the world – otherwise people just lapse into bad habits. There is a huge lack of thinking and understanding by members of the public in ALL countries – people in low death rate countries think it’s because they are “better driver” when in reality they have no idea of how much their native road system saves them from injury every day. The countries with the low death rates are the ones who design roads, have emergency services, trained police and accident evaluators – Thailand falls short on all of this. "a result of being discouraged from thinking while in school, only repeating what they are told without question." - and there's another sweeping generalisation about Thai people - the use of "culture" to deflect from an underlying racist theory.

If you just take time to think about it - there is no such thing a "common" sense - it's just your way of seeing the world without thinking too much. it just boils down to a wild anti-Thai generalisation.