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007 RED
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Posts posted by 007 RED
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19 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:
I have just finished reading the document - thanks for sharing @007 RED I saw that the FiT listed was 6.96 baht/unit. This is the rate from the original scheme. I know some people who are still being paid this rate and are very happy about it. I note the date quoted was 2013. They closed the scheme to new applications and for some time the whole FiT was in limbo until they introduced a new scheme in 2017 at the new ฿1.68 rate and then the current 2.2 Baht/kWh.
I note it states the following about solar installer - just wondering if this has been carried across to the current scheme:
“A person qualified to install solar PV rooftop system should be a person certified by and
registered with the Department of Alternative Energy Development and Efficiency or a person with relevant license for professional practice”I was aware that the document relates to the 2013 regulations but I think you'll find that the 'rules & regs' are still the same, its just that they have amended the rates paid for FiT and the maximum amount of power feed-in that the PEA/MEA can allocate to individual providers.
And yes, you also need a person who is professionally licenced to certify that the roof will support the weight of the solar installation ????
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18 hours ago, Thaifish said:
1 year 7 months.
16 hours ago, Crossy said:In the light of this latest announcement, it could be time to get out the sharp stick again ????
Assuming that the installer, or yourself, submitted the application in the first instance and all the required paperwork etc. I think it's about time to 'rattle a few cages' and collect some compensation for loss of income.
I've attached below a PDF translated copy of the 'ERC Regulations on Thailand's Solar Rooftop Programme'. You will see from this document that if your system has been approved and the PEA have failed to pay you for power that you have generated, and you have complained to them, then you can escalate the mater to the the ERC HQ, who will investigate and give a ruling. If they find in your favor they will instruct the PEA to pay you what they owe plus interest.
Obviously you will need to submit such a complaint in Thai and provide good backup evidence to support your claim.
It may be worthwhile trying. Good luck.
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Congratulations, a really nice installation. As you mentioned, l would definately raise the battery off the floor to avoid any 'rising damp'.
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2 hours ago, a340bangla1 said:
Hi there
not DIY, but done by an installer:
Huawei SUM2000-5KTL-M1 5.0Kw, 3 Phase inverter and totally 14 Jinko PV panels 470W, no battery as yet, cost was slightly below 200 KTHB all in.
Running with 0 export most of the time. It is still slightly hazy but we are getting close to 5 kW at the moment.
I would have to agree that 3 x 1-phase inverters might have been better due to 1 phase dropping out frequently. At the time of decision I did not think about this possibility but I guess it would have made the setup more expensive and complicated.
"no battery as yet"
Just a heads-up...... I seem to remember another forum member who has had a Huawei inverter installed discovered after the fact that Huawei some how tie you into using only their batteries, which then turned out to be a very expensive option. Hope I'm wrong for your sake.
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Today, 6/10/22, celebrates the 1st ‘birthday’ of my small scale grid tied solar system, so now is an opportune time to take stock and assess its performance during the past 365 days.
Background
The system comprises 4 x 415W half-cut mono panels connected in series to a 2.2kW Sofar grid tied inverter. The system was a DIY project, so there were no labour costs, just my time and effort. The total cost of the hardware worked out at a tad over 28,000 THB.
We (my wife and I) consider ourselves to be ‘conservative’ electricity users with our bills, prior to installing the solar system, averaging around 1,000 THB per month.
When I designed the system, I decided that the main objective of the system would be to reduce our electricity bills by approximately 75%. This would ensure that we didn’t get into a situation where the system generates negative readings when the meter reader calls.
Under laboratory conditions, the 4 x 415W solar panels should be capable of producing 1.66kW, but of course were not living in a laboratory. In reality, the panels are more likely to produce around 1.25kW in good sunshine. Therefore, assuming 6 hours of good sunshine a day, the system should be able to produce (1.25 x 6) 7.5kWh a day, which is the figure that I considered to be the target for the system.
What has the system achieved during its first year of operation?
According to the system’s monitoring facility, it has generated 2,590kWh during the past 365 days, or an average of 7.1kWh per day. Attached below is a graph illustrating what the system has produced, and what we purchased, since 6/10/21 to date. I have also included what we purchased during the 9 months prior to the system becoming operational for comparison purposes.
Looking at the graph below, it may be seen that we have slightly increased our consumption since the system became operational. I'll blame this on my better half who says that our electricity is free now ????.
Since the system became operational it has produced approximately 70% of our household electrical needs, resulting in us only having to purchase about 30% from our local PEA. Although slightly lower than what I had hoped for, I still consider this to be perfectly acceptable, particularly given that the system was running in ‘NO EXPORT’ mode for nearly 3 weeks during May/June (See Note 1 below), and with very overcast conditions during late September/early October due to the monsoon season.
Taking the cost of electricity as being 4.2 THB per unit (See note 2 below), the system has saved us (2,590 x 4.2) 10,878 THB during its first year of operation.
Return on Investment
If the system continues to produce the same output level over the next couple of years, it would be reasonable to assume that it will have paid for itself (28,000 / 10,875) in just over 2.5 years. Obviously if the price per unit of electricity increases, then the Return on Investment will be shorter ????.
Problems
Not wishing to speak to soon ????, but thankfully during its first year of operation there have been no major problems with the system.
Shortly after turning the system on, I discovered that a MC4 cable connector (from the solar panels to the DC breaker box) was getting very warm. Upon investigation I realized that I had not fully crimped the cable inside the connector. Thankfully, this was identified/rectified before any real problems. Definitely my bad.
The only maintenance the system has needed was to clean the panels on a couple of occasions to remove dust/dirt, although I’m not sure that this had any profound effect on the system’s performance.
Will I up-grade the system?
At this stage no. I’m very satisfied with the system’s performance and hopefully it will continue to provide a reasonable daily contribution to our electricity fund. If, and it’s a big if, the local PEA decide to replace our disc type meter with an electronic one, then I will have to seriously consider increasing the number of solar panels and possibly installing a second inverter.
Note 1.
I had to put the system into ‘NO EXPORT’ mode for almost 3 weeks during May/June because the new build house opposite was nearing completion and the electrical contractor had run the supply cables from the house to the pole outside our house, which also has our meter on it. As we had no idea how long it would be before the local PEA would come to install the meter for the new house we decided to go into a ‘safe’ mode, as we obviously didn’t want the meter installer to see the disc spinning backwards on our meter.
Note 2.
The figure that I have used (4.2 THB per unit) was the average that we paid per unit during the 9 months prior to installing the system.
Note 3.
On a light-hearted note. I recall a forum member some time ago suggesting that I was “penny pinching” by saving a few Baht a day. Well, I would ask, other than a ‘Ponzi scheme’, what investment is going to give me nearly 38% interest per annum.?
If I was to put 28,000 THB into a basic bank savings account for the past year, I would be extremely lucky to get about 1,400 THB back in interest. Then to add insult to injury, whatever interest is paid would be automatically reduced by X% ‘with-holding tax’.
So, at the end of the day a Return on Investment of 10,626 THB could well be considered a worthwhile payback.
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3 hours ago, Crossy said:
It was customs who inspected it, but ...
Was it? I wouldn't be to sure. I would bet 10 2 1 that DHL opened the parcel to inspect the inverter and identify the make/model/serial # which they then checked via the internet against the declared made by the Sofar when they shipped it.
As far as I'm aware the major freight players such as FedEx, DHL and UPS have a 'special' agreement with Thai customs insofar that they initially 'act' as per Thai customs in clearing the item and determining the amount of duty and tax to be paid. They then change their 'hat' to that of 'broker' in the negotiations between the customer and themselves as 'customs' regarding the duty/tax payable. It is only on rare or special occasions that Thai Customs actually become directly involved.
Its win, win for them. They get paid to ship the item in the first place, then paid a broker's fee by the receiving customer to get customs clearance and then get a nice little percentage commission from Thai customs after they have collected the duty/tax due.
I gleamed the above information from my wife's niece who works for one of the above mentioned 'players' a couple of years ago when I imported some first aid equipment from the UK that I was donating to my local rescue foundation. In that case it was not only the duty/tax that they wanted, but import license's from the Department of Food and Drugs Administration for each item. Negotiations with them was like pulling the teeth from a tiger.
So you appear to have been very lucky.
I hope it works OK when you test/install it. Are you going to have to return the dead one?
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Lets hope that it works after DHL have 'inspected' it.
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???? & ???? they come before 12.00
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Hi @Crossy Any sign of the replacement ????? The suspense is killing us.
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1 hour ago, carlyai said:I thought I saw someone here who installed 3 phase solar.
I thought it was red007 but think I'm mistaken.
Sorry...... Not guilty.... I'm definitely on single phase supply.
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1 hour ago, MJCM said:Another question, this time about NO-Export
Suppose you have NO-Export turned on, and your house is only using let's say 300W, but the Panels are producing (again let's say) 1500W.
Where does those approx 1200W (difference between usage and producing) go instead of going into the grid?
As @Crossy has indicated above, it really never gets generated. My inverter (Sofar 2.2kW GTI) can be set to export from zero to 100%. I have it set to zero and activate 'NO EXPORT' a couple of days prior to meter reader visiting. During the 'NO EXPORT' period the Current Transformer (CT) which is clamped over the live wire between the consumer box in the house and the meter on the pole outside is sending feedback to the inverter as to how much power we are using in the house. The inverter then adjust itself to only produce enough power such that no power is exported thus making the meter spin backwards.
Take a look at the graph below produced from the system's monitoring facility the day before the meter reader came. The system was in 'NO EXPORT' mode, and shows power production (blue) against power consumption (red).
You will notice that at times the consumption 'hits the roof' and the system tries to match that demand but fails abysmally because there was not enough sunshine hitting the photocells. You will also see that at other times the power production equals the power consumption even when there was good sunshine (mid-day) thus illustrating that power production is matching power consumption.
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Prior to installing our small scale GT solar system (360 days ago), we were purchasing around 280 - 300 units per month. The aim of the system was to reduce our bills by 75% thus ensuring that we never got into negative meter readings.
Like @Crossy, I weened the readings down incrementally for the first couple of months by activating the 'NO EXPORT' facility for short periods of time during the month to ensure that some 'bright spark' at our local PEA didn't notice a sudden drop in consumption,
Since the system has been operational our bills have been on average around 90 units per month, which is slightly less than I'd hoped for, or approximately 68% solar and 32% purchase.
Foot Note:
In hindsight I'm not to sure if a sudden drop in meter readings will raise any 'alarm bells' with the PEA. Prior to Covid restrictions being introduced 2 years ago, one of my neighbors (husband, wife and daughter) were living at home and commuting into BKK on a daily basis for work/university. When the travel restrictions were implemented they rented an apartment in BKK and returned home at the weekends. The whole family love their ACs which are on day and night, so their bills prior to Covid would have been substantial and there would have been a considerable drop in the number of units purchased each month once they started living in BKK. I've just spoken to the wife and she advised that they have not been contacted by the local PEA. So, no problem ????... hopefully.
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50 minutes ago, Crossy said:
Movement ????
Do DHL deliver on Saturday?
YES... and if your extra lucky, on Sundays too.
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2 hours ago, superal said:
Looks like a professional installation . Are you an electrician ? Also what appliances can your solar system run and do you have storage batteries for night time use ?
No I'm not an electrician. I confess to having no previous experience of solar systems and a fairly basic knowledge of electrical systems dating back to my days at Coventry Polytechnic some 50 plus years ago. In fact, I would happily describe myself as a total nurd when it comes to solar systems. That said, DIY seems to be in my DNA.
The inspiration for my project came from @Crossy original thread "How about a solar car port on a budget" (see link below), plus a lot of support from the forum members and considerable additional research on the web. I think that the real motivation for me was that at the age of 74, designing, installing and commissioning a grid tied solar system, albeit a small one, was a great challenge, and I love a challenge. It also helped to overcome the boredom created by the restriction on movement caused by Covid at the time.
My wife and I are somewhat conservative users of electricity. Our bills prior to installing the system were around 1,000 THB a month. As mentioned in my post above, the aim of the system was to reduce our electric bills by 75% and over the past year the system seems to be achieving this comfortably.
We have the following appliances: 2 x ACs (living room & bedroom) which are only used for a short periods of time when the humidity level goes above 80% - we tend to prefer fans: Fridge/freezer: Front loader washing m/c: Microwave: 55in LCD TV: 3kW water heater in the shower room: LEDs lights in all rooms.
The system is grid tied, so its difficult to accurately say which appliances are running off the system during the day, obviously they are not all running at the same time. I haven't considered installing ESS as this would involve a very substantial cost (batteries and hybrid inverter). Apart from the cost factor, such a system is well above my 'paygrade' ????.
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I have a small scale solar system installed on my car port roof. It comprises 4 x 415W half cut mono panels linked to a 2.2kW PEA approved grid tied inverter. This was a DIY installed project, so no labour costs involved just my time and effort. Total hardware cost was 28,000 THB.
The system has been running for almost a year now and during this time it has produced 2,555 units, effectively reducing my pre-installation monthly electricity bills by 75%. This represents a saving of 10,731 THB (based upon 4.2 THB per unit which was the price I paid prior to the system’s installation).
Hence my ROI should be in the order of (28,000 / 10,731) = 2.6 years. Obviously if the price per unit rises, the payback time will be shorter ????.
If I had a company to do the installation, then the labour costs would be in the order of 100,000 THB, and that's without getting approval from my local PEA. If I wanted a PEA 'approved installer’ to install and obtain certification, then the cost would soar to 200,000 plus THB. In both cases the cost of the hardware would be extra and no doubt considerably more than the 28,000 THB that I paid.
As you will see, there is a tremendous difference between the cost of my DIY install and that of a PEA 'approved' installation. Unfortunately, the bureaucracy* and cost of obtaining approval for a system, is no incentive whatsoever for most people here in Thailand to go solar.
Unfortunately there is no way that Somchai, on a basic minimum wage, is going to be able to afford the initial capital outlay for a simple system which could meet their basic electric needs.
*We Brits invented bureaucracy, Thais have just perfected it.
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Strange! Up until now, TAT have always spouted how many zillion Baht will be
screwedextracted out of the foreign tourists. Now all of a sudden, they quoting in terms of millions of US Dollars. Is this a forewarning of another 1979 financial crash when tourists had to pay for their Thai flight, hotels and many other expenses in US Dollars at exorbitant exchange rate determined by the vendor ?-
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6 hours ago, Misab said:
Denmark for instance going from 100 % fossil fuels to now 50 % of all electricity comes from wind and solar power, and they aim to reach 100 % within 10 years.
What does Thailand do?
This is very admirable, and I hope they achieve their goal. It's a pity that more countries are not following along the same path.
That said, producing vast amounts of electricity from wind and solar farms, which are no doubt heavily sponsored by the government, is a totally different story to installing "solar cells on the roof" as per your original post.
It has to be remembered that the average Somchai, on minimum wages is unlikely to be able to afford the initial outlay necessary to install even a small solar system on their roof which might just generate enough to meet their own needs, let alone produce any surplus for them to be able to sell off to their local PEA.
FYI... My small scale system comprising 4 x 415W mono panels linked to a 2.2kW grid tied inverter. Total hardware cost = 28,000 THB. This effectively reduces my electricity bill by 75% per month, and all being well will give a ROI in about 2.5 years. This was a DIY installation project, so no labour costs other than my time and effort.
If I had a company to do the installation, then the labour costs would be in the order of 100,000 THB, and that's without getting approval from my local PEA. If I wanted a PEA 'approved' installer to install and obtain certification, then the cost would soar to 200,000 plus THB. In both cases the cost of the hardware would be extra and no doubt considerably more than the 28,000 THB that I paid.
As you will see, there is a tremendous difference between the cost of my DIY install and that of a PEA 'approved' installation. Unfortunately the cost of obtaining approval for a system, combined with the pittance paid by the PEA for buying any surplus, is no incentive whatsoever for most people here in Thailand to go solar.
The only people who realistically are/have considered getting PEA certification for solar system installations are the big companies who can invest in the considerable outlay for a large system. The certification (commission) fees then become a very small percentage of their initial outlay costs.
Near where I live there are several large factories (mainly food production). Looking at the satellite images from Google Maps, it is very evident that quite a few have invested in solar systems. I have attached an image below of one such factory. How many solar panels can you count in the roof? As far as I'm aware the factory only works during the day time, six days per week, so its unlikely that they have an ESS for night time use. I do wonder if they sell any surplus to the local PEA and if they do how much they get?
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3 hours ago, Misab said:
Yes, you can sell it, new rules here, but you need to have an inverter there are accepted by the PEA.
Actually its not new and its not only the inverter that has to be accepted by the PEA or MEA, there are a lot of other matters that need their approval for example: Type of solar panel; type of panel mountings; breakers; cables to name but a few.
FYI..... The PEA's and the MEA have been able to buy back power from Small Scale Solar Power Producers (SSSPP) for the past 9 years. The only thing that has changed since these regulations were introduced is the amount that the PEA/MEA will pay for any power which they purchase from the SSSPP.
In 2013 the Energy Regulatory Commission (ERC) introduced the "Power Purchases from Solar PV Rooftop" Regulations B.E. 2556. I have attached below a translated PDF copy of these regulation, which runs into some 96 pages and sets out in great detail all the requirements.
My advice is don't read it before bedtime if you suffer from nightmares as its pure bureaucracy as invented by us Brits. and perfected by the Thais.
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14 hours ago, Crossy said:
The replacement unit is on the way via DHL ????
Now that's good service... all credit to Sofar for their quick response.... I just hope that DHL don't clobber you for import duty and VAT.
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On 9/21/2022 at 8:28 AM, Bandersnatch said:13 hours ago, Thaifish said:To install legally on your roof it is not hard as long as the Inverter is one of the approved type by PEA. There is a list of approved inverters. I don't have a link to the approved inverters at the moment which you can find online....
FYI.... The attached PDF is an up-to-date list of PEA approved inverters... look forward to seeing their approved list of solar panels and mountings ????.... I wonder if mine and @Crossy mountings will be on the list ????
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15 hours ago, Misab said:Thank you all for your comments, they are really appreciated and a great help. Some of you talked about PEA which made me search on the internet. For those of you there are interested in updated rules. I found this:
https://www.kunini.com/solar-rooftop-update/
Thanks for posting this article/advert. I have to say I'm a little bit skeptical for a few reasons.
Firstly, it would have been nice if the author of the article/advert had provided a link to the specific details of this government announcement e.g. when was it made, which government department made it and details of the new/modified regulations. Having searched the internet I've not been unable to find any other reference to such change, other than this article.
Secondly, reading the article/advert and comparing it with the current regulations concerning the supply of electricity to the grid which falls under the 'umbrella' of EGAT, which if I'm correct was introduced in 2013, there is in fact very little difference in the basic requirements concerning the installation of solar systems, except for the 'special' requirements which I've pointed out bellow.
Thirdly, according to the article/advert:
"solar equipment needs to be verified and approved by the PEA/MEA; this includes Solar panels, inverters and mounting structures". So now the PEA/MEA will not only have a list of approved inverters, but a list of solar panels and mounting fixtures which can be used.
"The roof structure needs to be checked/verified by a Thai structural engineer to ensure that it can support the load". This will be good fun. Finding a licenced structural engineer in Thailand will be like finding a needle in a haystack, and if you do find one its going to cost an arm and a leg to get him/her to certify the structure.
"... once installed it needs to be registered with the Tessaban...." Why? What has the local authority got to do with someone having a solar panel system on their roof.
The above 'new' requirements, in my opinion, are not going to encourage people to go solar in the same way that the original regulations did nothing.
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1 minute ago, PR3 said:
@007 RED Thanks for the tip.
I wasn't even aware they went to sleep.
One thing I will say, they are deep sleepers because nothing I could do would wake it up.
I went outside just now and the alarm was on because the power supply was off, reconnected everything back up where it should be and all is well.
That really had me worried I tossed and turned all night.
So in summary I didn't sleep well at all because the inverter did.????
Live and learn I suppose.
Cheers All
PR3
Glad that my assumption was correct.
Yes 'basic' inverters go into 'sleep' mode when there is no light to activate the photoelectric cells. If you look at the spec data for your inverter you will see a mention of something called 'Start-up Voltage... mine is 70V.... which means that the panels need to produce 70V before the inverter will 'kick into life. At that point the inverter goes into a 'Check' mode and if everything is OK it starts producing AC.
FYI... things are different if you have a hybrid inverter that is connected to batteries as these will remain active to monitor/control the 'backflow' of DC from the batteries and convert to AC.
Time to relax now.... have another beer.
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11 hours ago, PR3 said:
Well no idea what's gone on. Just checked the inverter on the way back from the putting some garbage out and it's dead.
Was perfectly fine all day and haven't touched anything.
Tried isolating and firing up again and nothing..oh dear.
Will have a proper look in the morning, hopefully just a fuse or something.
@PR3.... Looking at the time that you posted the above e.g. around 9pm, and taking account that you mentioned "just on the way back from putting out the garbage", I would assume that it was dark. If I'm correct in that assumption, then your inverter would be 'asleep' and doing nothing. This is normal. You should find that once the sun starts to appear on the horizon at around 6:30 am it will, or should, kick back into life. Likewise, once the sun disappears below the horizon at around 6:30 pm the inverter will go into 'sleep' mode again.
I hope that I'm right and that you've not got a problem with the inverter.
Good luck
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@PR3.... my humble apology for putting you through any unnecessary stress.... @Crossy is perfectly correct, it is the REFLUX POWER setting which should be set to zero to stop export when a CT clamp is connected to the inverter and not the REACTIVE setting which I incorrectly advised in an earlier post.
FYI... I've just scaled the ladder and checked my inverter setting to make absolutely sure.
I hope that you've managed to get it to work now. Grovel, grovel ???? ????
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Switch between grid and off grid system in same house
in Alternative/Renewable Energy Forum
Posted
An interesting question. I think it’s not “if”, but “when”. That said, as TIT the “when” could be any time from tomorrow or sometime in the next millennium. Who knows?
My small scale system (4 x 415 W panels connected to a 2.2kW GTI) in theory should be capable of producing 1.66kW under laboratory conditions. However, given that we are living in the real world, the system is more likely to produce about 1.2kW under good sunshine and assuming 6 hours of decent sunshine a day, the system should be capable of producing around 7 units a day ????.
Although we have a range of household appliances, including a couple of air conditioning units, my wife and I are somewhat conservative electricity users. Prior to installing the solar system, PEA billing records for the previous 2 years indicated that we were using on average 10 units/day. So when I designed the system, I did so with the objective of the system being capable of producing a maximum of 75%, or 7 units/day, in order to avoid any risk of producing negative meter readings.
The graphs below for the current billing period shows that our small scale system is currently producing 65% of our needs, leaving us to purchase 35% from the local PEA.
It should be noted that weather conditions this month have been mainly overcast with the occasional heavy downpour, hence the somewhat lower than hoped for production yield ????.
As I type this post, the monitoring facility is showing that the solar panels are producing 1.24kW and hence my meter is merrily whizzing around backwards due to the nice blue sky and nice bright sunshine ????. Obviously if the meter were to be replaced with an electronic type thus preventing backwards spinning, I will not be able to ‘store’ my surplus power in the grid for use when the sunshine disappears behind a cloud.
I have noticed from the system’s monitoring facility that on the couple of days when my system is in the NO EXPORT mode prior to the meter reader coming, the system appears to almost keep ‘pace’ with our needs, except for short periods when we are using the shower heater, water pump or washing machine.
I envisage that if/when the PEA install an electronic meter, because we are relatively low electrical users, we will only need to purchase a few additional units a month and I may well then consider installing an additional solar panel to compensate for the loss of 'free' storage convenience.
Due to the high costs associated with hybrid systems, and our low consumption, I have no plans to go down the ESS route.