Mike Teavee

You can't "Opt Out", you are "Contracted Out" by the company you work for & as part of that they have to put the reduced Employer NI contributions that they pay into a pension for you so Private Pensions do come into it. Don't know about reduced Employee contributions as I paid the maximum NI contribution even though I was "Contracted Out".

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TBH They were telling my GF what they needed which she was translating for me & whilst normally her English is very good (she has a degree in computing), when she's in a stressful situation she sometimes struggles a bit. She said they'd asked for copies of all statements from my UK/SG accounts (as they did with my Thai accounts despite nothing before 2021 being relevant for what I was claiming) & I told her to tell them that was simply not possible as I'd had my accounts for so long & besides anything before me becoming fully tax resident in Thailand in 2020 would be irrelevant. She told them this & said that they'd said they needed it all, I repeated that this simply wasn't possible & ask her to ask them again what they really needed... After her asking this they said they had everything they needed & would be in touch if they needed more information (they haven't been). What would make sense to me is them wanting to see my Non-Thai bank account statements for they years I was reclaiming for (2021/2022) & maybe even the year before, but 2023's statements would be irrelevant until next year & anything before 2020 would be irrelevant as I wasn't spending 180 days in Thailand.... But again, for my 3 Thai accounts they wanted to copies of every single page of my Bank Book from 2018 when I opened the 1st one to the day I filed the Tax Return in Feb 2023. Also didn't understand why they wanted a photo copy of my passport, I understand they want to see the dates when I was in Thailand BUT why would they want photocopies of all of the other countries Visas/Stamps I have in there... Again, I think that they only wanted copies of the pages where I'd entered/left Thailand but were unable to communicate this to me.

The onus is always on the Tax Payer to prove what they're claiming is true, so if asked to prove it, you will have to show your Bank Records / Tax Return to the Thailand Revenue Department. I mentioned this in another thread, but when I completed my 1st Tax Return this year, one of the things they initially asked for was copies of all statements for all my non-Thai Bank Accounts, when I pointed out that I'd had one of these for 50 years & my UK main account for 39 years they seemed to relent & say they had everything they needed and would be in touch if they needed anything else... 8 months later I've still not received the withheld interest back.

The good news is that there was a recent update where they seem to be saying any income "Earned" before 1/1/2024 will be classed as savings so if you can show that your $30K came from money in your account before that date then you should be ok.

Long story short, I needed a Thai Tax Identification Number (TIN) for my UK bank so as I'd jumped through the hoops to get one I thought I might as well file a return to reclaim withheld interest on my bank accounts for 2021/2022. Absolute joke of a process where I had to photocopy every page of my passport & every page of my Bank Books, then complete a form about my pension income where every answer was Not Applicable (I don't receive a Pension). They then asked for photo copies of every statement from my Non-Thai Bank Accounts (I have 3 in the UK & 1 in Singapore) to which I replied that I'd had 1 of these accounts since I was 7 (50 years) & another since I was 18 (39 years) so it would be impossible to get every statement from these accounts & what did they really need. They seemed to give up at this point & say they had everything they needed & would be in touch if they needed anything else, 6 months later I still haven't received the money back & so have also gave up. Nobody in the Department (Chonburi Office across Jomtien 2nd road from Immigration) seemed to speak English so I cannot see how they can cope with a massive increase in English speaking foreigners filing tax returns neither mind other nationalities. Even if we have everything converted to Thai for them, how are they going to cope when people go in to ask questions/seek clarification.

If you only had $20K taxable income then it would depend where the other $30K came from. If it came from savings then there would be no tax on it, however if it came from another income stream (Dividends, Capital Gains, salary for Remote Working, Royalties etc...) then you may (depending on your country's DTA with Thailand) be liable for tax on it.

To align that to Thailand, that would that be like Thailand taxing all Citizens & Permanent Resident Holders on their World wide income. And if I've understood you correctly, somebody who went to work in the US for 1 year on a H1B Visa would be taxed on their world wide income during that year, but presumably once they left the Job/US & were no longer Tax Resident, the US wouldn't tax any income not arising in the US.

I think you guys are coming at it from a different point of view. To use the UK as an example, an American living in the UK is taxable in/by the UK if they work, get interest from a bank account, make a Capital Gain etc... there so to say that only US can Tax an American's worldwide income is not true. Now from the flipside, any income you earn in the UK that's been taxed can be offset against the tax that the US applies to your worldwide income (e.g. if you were working abroad I believe up to $120,000 salary income is not taxable in the US) with the result that you'll probably come off net neutral, only time I could see you being worse off is if the tax rates in the foreign country were significantly higher than the equivalent in the US. BTW, US isn't the only country that taxes it's citizens worldwide, Eritrea does it as well https://www.taxesforexpats.com/expat-tax-advice/Citizenship-Based-Taxation-International-Comparison.html

Perhaps somebody could explain how US Tax works for non-US Citizens living/Tax Resident in the US i.e. does the US Tax them on all of their world wide income or only Income earned in/remitted to the US? I can see Thailand introducing a US Style Worldwide Income Tax on Thai Citizens (though they lack the "Clout" of the US when it comes to getting other countries/banks to report information to them) but I can't see them introducing this for Non-Thai Citizens even if they are Tax Resident.

Interesting article on Frozen Personal Allowances (Frozen until 2027/28) & the impact on State Pension.... https://theprogenygroup.com/blog/how-the-personal-allowance-freeze-might-impact-you/#:~:text=If the OBR's projections are,personal allowance in 2027%2F28. If the OBR’s projections are accurate, then by 2027/28 the difference between the new state pension and personal allowance will be about £360 – less than a tenth as much. The OBR’s estimate only needs to undershoot by 0.8% a year for the new state pension to be larger than the personal allowance in 2027/28 I think it would make too much "Noise" if the government allowed the State Pension to go above the Personal Allowance & pensioners started to be taxed on it, so if the OBR did get their predictions wrong & it looked like it was going to go over it, I'd expect them to either limit the Pension increase OR increase the allowance.

Sorry, I seem to be struggling to get my point across.... There is a huge difference between paying no UK Tax because the income wasn't taxable (E.g. interest earned in an ISA) AND paying no UK Tax because the effective rate that applied to that income was 0%. In the latter case you have been taxed & it could be argued you've paid the tax due (all £0.00p of it) which is where rule 5 of the RD Guidelines come in to play.

I didn't suggest he or anybody gave up their PTA, I was responding to Sheryl's statement that UK State Pension is not taxed as I believe it is taxed at the 0% rate (something which you seem to agree with) - I merely used the example of where people give up or lose their PTA as rationale for why I believed this. As I posted this is an important distinction as RD guidelines recommend that income will be taxed at the most beneficial rate to the taxpayer so if the RD views State Pension as not taxed, they could Tax it, but if they view it as having been taxed at 0% then they wouldn't Tax it. RD Guidelines: https://www.rd.go.th/english/23520.html NB Point 5... 5. What happens if the rate of tax stipulated in the Revenue Code is different from that of an agreement? - Apply the rate which is more beneficial to the taxpayer.

It depends on how you view Taxes in the UK, I believe State Pension is taxed in the UK but at the 0%/Nil rate band because they are put it onto your "Income Stack" 1st & it falls below the normal Personal Tax Allowance. As an example, it is possible in the UK to give up your Personal Tax Allowance where this is beneficial for your other income OR people lose their PTA when they earn over £100,000 (You lose £1 of PTA for every £2 you earn over £100,000 so if you were to earn £125,140 you would have no PTA left & would be taxed 20% on your State Pension). This is an important distinction as by RD guidelines, if you've already been taxed on income covered by the DTA then the lower of the 2 countries rates apply (so in the case where you do have a PTA it would be 0%).

Yes, UK has a similar clause in the DTA which can be found here... https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a80bddc40f0b623026953eb/uk-thailand-dtc180281_-_in_force.pdf Page 12... Article 7, Income From Immovable Property, clause 1 (1) Income from immovable property may be taxed in the Contracting State in which such property is situated. The DTA also covers what happens if you are taxed on income in Thailand & the UK... Page 31... Article 23, Elimination of Double Taxation, clause 1 & 3 (1) In the case of the United Kingdom and subject to the provisions of the law of the United Kingdom regarding the allowance as a credit against United Kingdom tax of tax payable in a territory outside the United Kingdom (which shall not affect the general principle hereof): (a) Thai tax payable under the laws of Thailand and in accordance with this Convention, whether directly or by deduction, on profits, income or chargeable gains from sources within Thailand (excluding, in the case of a dividend, tax payable in respect of the profits out of which the dividend is paid) shall be allowed as a credit against any United Kingdom tax computed by reference to the same profits, income or chargeable gains by reference to which the Thai tax is computed. (3) In the case of Thailand, United Kingdom tax payable in accordance with this Convention in respect of income from sources within the United Kingdom shall be allowed as a credit against Thai tax payable in respect of that income. The credit shall not, however, exceed that part of the Thai tax, as computed before the credit is given, which is appropriate to such item of income. (4) For the purposes of paragraphs (1) and (3) of this Article profits, income and capital gains owned by a resident of a Contracting State which may be taxed in the other Contracting State in accordance with this Convention shall be deemed to arise from sources in that other Contracting State.

Possibly more geared towards US guys (though from the bits I've seen they do touch on UK a little bit). but it is very long (2:32:48)... ... & So far I've only watched the 5 minute edited highlights from

Sorry, the correct term is "Family Ties"... https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/residence-domicile-and-remittance-basis/rdrm11530 I think the Statutory Residency Test explains it better... https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/residence-domicile-and-remittance-basis/rdrm11500

No, I was asking the other 2 guys who said they never spend enough times in a country to become Tax Resident whether this meant they were by default Tax Resident in their home country (I.e. Do you have to be Tax Resident somewhere). Can I ask how you're not Tax Resident in Thailand if you live here year round/> 180 days?

As you're Non-Tax Resident you obviously don't need to do a return so do you do one to reclaim the Withheld tax on Income from your Bank Account? I didn't even know Non-Tax Residents could file a return 🙂

Can I ask which country you guys are from & whether not being Tax Resident elsewhere means by default you are Tax Resident in your home country. The reason I ask is that I plan on doing every 3rd year as a Non-Tax resident in Thailand during which I'll bring in enough money to support me for the next 3 years, BUT I don't want this to mean that I default to becoming tax resident in my home country (UK). As an aside, the Tax Residency threshold in the UK operates on a sliding scale depending on how long you've been Non-UK Tax Resident & how many "Economic Ties" you have there. I can spend up to 89 days in the UK as I have 2 "Economic Ties" there, but if I had the full (4) "Economic Ties" it would be 45 days as I've been Non-UK Tax Resident for > 3 years & 16 days if I hadn't.

Good spot, I suspect it's a typo as all other sources say the new rules come in 1st January 2024 which makes more sense as it's the start of the new Thai Tax Year.

Don't get me started on the "Joys" of being a small landlord in the UK nowadays & things will only get worse if Labour do what they saying they're going to do when they get in next year. I was planning to sell the house anyway but this Tax announcement has the potential to make things more complicated, my main reason for selling is it's generating approx. 3% income after management/maintenance fees & you can get a better return by putting the money into a fixed deposit account, plus a big secondary reason for me is it will give me the $250K I need to support an LTR Visa application as my income is < $80 pa.

I hope so, but it's a good example of where I need to have more clarity about how it's going to work before I make concrete plans. For CGT the DTA says:- (1) Capital gains from the alienation of immovable property, as defined in paragraph (2) Article 7, may be taxed in the Contracting State in which such property is situated. - Which I read as only the UK can tax any CGT made on the sale of the property. Worth noting that for Rent, the DTA says:- (1) Income from immovable property may be taxed in the Contracting State in which such property is situated. - Which again suggests any rental income brought over is not-taxable (or is taxable & you get Tax Credits). I'm thinking there are 3 ways this could go:- They accept CGT has been paid & so nothing to pay in Thailand (That's what I'm hoping for, but my Plan B if that's not the case is to become Non-Tax Residence for either the year I sell the property OR the year I bring the money over). I need to pay the difference between CGT paid in the UK & what it would have been in Thailand & I get Tax Credits for this in the UK which would be of no use to me as I don't pay CGT on any of my other assets (Shares) They tax me on all of the profit made, again giving me useless Tax Credits. Key point is the money will only be taxed when it's remitted so I've got some time next year before I sell the house to get clarification, if I don't have this by May (I plan on being out of Thailand for 1.5 - 2 months before end of May anyway) then I'll need to make a decision whether to complete the 6 months outside of Thailand, or park the money until 2026 & bring it over with my 25% Tax Free Pension lump sum when I will be spending 6 months outside of Thailand.

I must admit that I didn't know about the updated Q&A Statement https://thelegal.co.th/2023/10/18/qa-statement-issued-by-revenue-department-clarifying-taxation-applied-on-foreign-sourced-income/ This added very little information except for the point about income earned in a year when the person was Non-Tax Resident would not be liable for tax whenever it was brought into the country. This is really good news for me as I plan on selling my house next year & taking the 25% Tax Free lump sum from my Pension in 2026, so as long as I stay no more than 180 days in Thailand during those years, I'm free to bring the proceeds in tax free at any point in the future.

You could call it speculation, but all my income comes from Rent, Dividends & Capital Gains and from the little information we've got so far, would seem to be subject to Thai Tax, so I call it my "Plan B". Especially as I plan on selling my UK House next year (using the money to buy a Condo here) & taking the 25% Tax Free lump sum when my pensions kick in in 2026.