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herfiehandbag
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4 hours ago, bert bloggs said:
I am still waiting for the Italians to tear down the Colossium all those white Christian slaves died there ., i still wonder how i kept my sanity after visiting it and seeing how those slaves died ,i would have been traumatized now.
Just now, Mac98 said:You miss the point: It's OK to be enslaved as long as master and slave are the same color.
They were white and Christian - what is your problem?
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26 minutes ago, sweatalot said:dear conspiracy theorists, are you aware that the victim's statement was helping Red Bulls's best, not against him? Who should have a motive to get rid of him - or was he up to withdraw his statement? (Not saying that I think so)
But if there was to be an inquiry, he may have been liable to be cross examined. That may have posed a risk?
I should imagine that the "Air Marshal's" fundamental orifice is going "sixpence - half a crown. sixpence - half a crown, sixpence - half a crown" as we speak!
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49 minutes ago, steven100 said:
Welcome to Thailand where anything can happen. This being such a high profile case nothing would surprise me. Folks get removed because they cause an issue that impacts the hierarchy or they tread on the wrong toes. Nothing new ... this has been going on in many countries for years ... look at Jamal Khashoggi, Alexander Litvinenko, Benazir Bhutto and many more.
Doesn't make it right though, does it Steven?
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On 7/27/2020 at 7:14 PM, brain150 said:Thai Immigration has tried to get people who live in Thailand on an "extension of stay" for a long time now !
With a multiple entry re-entry permit it is what Immigration wants everybody to have because this way they control
the situation !
Multiple entry visas are for people who are not supposed to live in Thailand !
Now they have a situation where they can enforce this quite easily.
It is not about whether you like it or not ... right now there seems to be no other option !!!
On 7/27/2020 at 7:22 PM, Pravda said:I don't want to sound like someone who's riding the high horse, but these multiple entry non o marriage visas are not meant for long stay in Thailand.
I am also on this exact same visa but I have 400k in the bank ready once the immigration smartens up and tells me that these visas are not meant for long stay.
So I think you will be asked to leave if there is not another amnesty or don't have the cash ready.
The Multiple Entry Non O visa, based on marriage (or parent of a Thai Child) have been issued for donkeys years. The local (adjacent country) consulates which issue them are strictly limited. The requirements to qualify for such a visa are clearly stated, and if you do not meet them you don't get a visa - are not these forums (in more normal times) full of posts bewailing the fact that because the poster did not meet the stipulated criteria he was refused a visa? The immigration service know exactly why people use these visas. If they (or more properly the government) were to decide to put a stop to people using them they could do so, at any time, by publishing an order prohibiting continuous re-entry. They haven't and aren't doing that. Circumstances beyond our, and the governments control have led to the current problem in which some of us find ourselves. The problem needs to be addressed, I see no reason why it shouldn't be, but i suspect at the moment there are more pressing things to be dealt with.
I can see two possibilities - those of us on ME non O visas which have expired since the border closures, will be able to apply to apply to renew them within Thailand, or (more likely, as it is a more lucrative option), we will be able to purchase further 60 day extensions, until such time as "normal service returns".
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I am irresistibly reminded of the old joke about one of the early tests of the USA's “Star Wars” project.
A Pentagon spokesman described the results as encouraging.
5 minutes after they rested the weapon, the moon went out!
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32 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:
Mate there are moves afoot to decide that.
Remember that Scotland was never taken into the union via a referendum so why would it need one to leave?
No. The Scottish parliament at the time entered the union. Legally the Scottish parliament can leave it.
Umh, the Scottish Parliament at the time entered the Union, and abolished itself. It is dead and long gone, as dead as a Norwegian Blue parrot!
The current Holyrood Parliament is an entirely new construction. No connection or inheritance.
To put it into perspective - an English King named John signed Magna Carta in June 1215.
I am English, and share his Christian name. That doesn't mean that I can rescind Magna Carta!
????
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1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:
The relentless rise in the strength of the independence movement is what is keeping this thread alive ????
Are you sure? As a dispassionate observer it seems to be you and a slack handful of mates resurrecting the same old arguments every few days!
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2 hours ago, Kadilo said:Not just any old witness, but an “Air Marshall”
Surely someone in that position wouldn’t tell porkies ????
Or ride around in a pick up truck?
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12 hours ago, GigsGigs said:
Regardless of everyone's opinion on this matter, it is somehow fascinating to observe to this day there are still very strongly opiniated pro-Thaksin and anti-Thaksin people, it is undeniable the man really left a "mark" on the Kingdom.
I like to look at things from a more pragmatic point of view;
What has he done/accomplished/achieved for the Kingdom in the past and what WOULD/could he possibly do for the Kingdom if say, he was allowed back in one day?
He allowed the Thai electorate to experience that they could choose who governed them. They could elect the government they wanted not the one selected by the establishment.
They experienced, and took part in, democracy; flawed, with many failures, arguably a poor selection of candidates; but democracy none the less. That it was crushed by the military at the behest of "the establishment" doesn't change that. He let a cat out of a bag, and it won't go back in.
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17 hours ago, Baerboxer said:
But, but, but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Doesn't change that the Shins were greedy corrupt thieves does it?
But, but, but...
It doesn't change that the Shinawatra's party were elected (won) what was it? Five elections "on the trot", elections in which incidentally it didn't take months to count the votes, interpret the votes, and declare a winner, who just happened to be the incumbent Prime Minister, who appointed himself after leading a coup!
It doesn't change that the Shinawatras didn't simply arrange for the disbandment and removal from office of their opponents on a series of charges (which give a whole new meaning to "trumped up"!) in order to claim that they had won those elections.
It doesn't change that the military saw fit to engineer unrest prior to and during the last three of those elections, in order to step in "for the state of the nation", twice by good old fashioned military coups, and once by rounding up all the party leaders and holding them incommunicado in a barracks, until such a time as it "was agreed" that the party which had actually lost the election would form a government. On the occasion of the last of those elections not only was voting suppressed, with what can only be described as the active participation of the military (funny that last time round they were that keen that everyone could vote that they marched their troops to the voting stations to ensure that they all cast their vote!); but the incomplete results (which it is suspected rather favoured the Shinawatras) were never released.
The most important thing it doesn't change, is that the Shinawatra's party repeatedly were chosen by the Thai people to form their government. That choice has repeatedly been denied. That is a fact which has not changed.
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25 minutes ago, Logosone said:Again, a very small minority of 80 million Germans, the very vast majority of whom had no knowledge whatsoever of the mass killings.
And of course the very vast majority of Germans did not participate in the mass killing.
Neither did Bruno Dey. But did not stop him from being dragged through court at over 90 years of age.
Disgraceful.
Put quite simply, you are. Disgraceful.
An opinion which seems to have been expressed by a number of your fellow countrymen on this forum.
Frankly, it takes far more courage and integrity to stand up and condemn the whole appaling business, as a number have done here, than to bluster, selectively misquote and attempt to justify your wholly discredited version of events.
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43 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:
You reckon that was his double, a doppelganger, photographed in London at the family residence there then?
It wouldn't be beyond the bounds of possibility now, would it? It would make staying under the radar (media not Police - that radar was switched off from the start) rather easier.
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4 hours ago, Razek said:Thaksin came with 0 Dollars and he get out with Milliarden .....
The whole point about Thaksin, and what inspires so much dislike (or worse) amongst so many, both amongst those within Thai society " born to rule" and amongst their apologists here on TVF, is that he made a great deal of money in business, and then went into politics, and was equally successful at that. New money and consequent political success put the old elite's noses severely out of joint. That is why they got rid of him.
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1 hour ago, Logosone said:
Absolutely ignorant codswallop, the extermination camps were outside of Germany, not in Germany:
"The major camps were in German-occupied Poland and included Auschwitz, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor, and Treblinka."
https://www.britannica.com/topic/extermination-camp
You are spreading completely false, misinformation. Mittelburg Dora was a labour camp, not an extermination camp, there were no gas chambers at Mittelburg-Dora whatsoever. Look it up and educate yourself.
You yourself said;
2 hours ago, Logosone said:You are obviously unaware that the huge death camps with factories were all located outside Germany.
I named 3 camps at which inmates were worked to death in factories and a further major industrial enterprise all within Germany.
If we are talking ignorant codswallop, then you take the prize Mr Logosone, however "codswallop" is generally accepted as innocent rubbish, you however are deliberately spinning a web of disinformation, half truths and selective quotes in an attempt do defend the indefensible - the loathsome activities which we are discussing, and which you seek to diminish and excuse. The ghost of Dr Goebbels must be proud of you!
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10 minutes ago, Logosone said:You are obviously unaware that the huge death camps with factories were all located outside Germany.
There wasn't a single one in Germany, all were in Poland. And of course the reason for that is obvious. Himmler complained time and time again of the sympathy ordinary Germans had for jews, that they did not understand the need for them to be exterminated, hence the death camps were all located outside Germany and the operations were kept secret.
Mittelburg -Dora was at Nordhausen in Thuringia. Sachsenhausen was at Orianenburg, various of the Krupp works in the Ruhr were large scale users of concentration camp labour. Peenemunde on the Baltic coast of Mecklenburg; all major sites using forced labour by concentration camp inmates, all in Germany.
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55 minutes ago, Logosone said:This whole idea that 80 million people would know of a highly secretive operation of the state is akin to stating the entire population of the UK today knows of the top-secret operations of the UK.
It's frankly ludicrous.
That in itself is a ludicrous comparison.
Let us consider one of the perhaps largest
topsecret operations in the UK - the arrangements for storing and moving the UK's nuclear weapons. A small number of people are involved in this, it is carried out discretely, and in plain view. Many/most simply do not realise what the road vehicles or train which has just passed was carrying. It certainly does not have a banner attached reading "Nukes - please do not look!" This is top secret- the idea is that nobody notices, and only a very small number of people are party to it.
Now compare that with rounding up whole communities, and either marching them to an adjacent wood and shooting them, or putting them in crammed freight trains, which trundle for hundreds of kilometres through the public railway system to be unloaded a vast camps, from which they never emerge. Compare that with huge factories in which slave labour was literally worked to death, in full view of other workers. In the last month's, do you think that the general population did not notice the long columns of emaciated prisoners being brutally forcemarched westwards, again in full view, from the evacuated camps in the east?
To state, in the face of all the evidence that people did not know, is ludicrous. The claims of general ignorance advanced at the war's end were ignored, that does not mean they were accepted, and as far more information has emerged in recent years they have clearly been shown to have little foundation.
Frankly, only a miniscule proportion of the armed forces were convicted because with millions of surrendered personnel to be guarded, processed and released, there was neither the time, resources or will to conduct investigations to put them on trial.
In hindsight, that was perhaps a great failing, it led to frankly spurious "statistics" which can be used in peddling the revisionist theories which you have obviously bought into.
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1 hour ago, Logosone said:It's bad enough that you try and portray the events at Celle as somehow indicating the barbarity of the people of Celle, who hosted you, when in fact it was the barbarity of the Allied bombing of civilians that led to over 2000 of the 4000 plus strong transport of prisoners to be killed by Allied bombs. Then you proceed to claim Germans who apprehended escaped inmates and killed 30 for looting were the real bad guys, ignoring that the Allied planes killed 2000 of those very same prisoners. It's pathetic.
Just like your attempt to equate David Irving's claims with mine, which are entirely different. However, talking about that trial, in it Evans makes clear that
"the genocide was often described using euphemisms such as "special tasks" and "executive measures"; Einsatzgruppe victims were often described as having been shot while trying to escape"
Obviously because those responsible for the genocide knew it was against international law and attempted to keep it highly secret. Holocaust scholarship, even Evans, can't have it both ways, they can't claim on the one hand "Oh they took all these measures to keep it secret, used secret terminology "special treatment" meant killings, but on the other hand "Oh all Germans knew". It's a pathetic claim and obviously wrong.
1. The people of Celle did not "host me". I was stationed there, as part of an international alliance (NATO) intended to deter the very real threat of invasion of Western Europe by the Soviet Union, at, I might add, a very significant cost to the United Kingdom.
2. I went out of my way to mix with the local population, far more so than most of my peers. At the time I accepted their claimed ignorance of what had happened. I accepted that. Subsequent reading, both about Celle and the rest of Germany has led me to believe that knowledge of the genocidal policies enacted by the state, and involving a significant number of it's people, was much more widespread than they claimed.
3. I also said that I don't believe that the German People should pay an eternal price. But I do believe that members of that generation, who were active in the genocide system, should, whilst they survive, be brought to justice.
4. You are beginning to reveal what I suspect are your true colours - as one bent on revisionist interpretations of that evil creed and it's actions. An approach that has been utterly rebuffed by academic research and debate, the courts both in Germany and throughout the western world, and by the simple, factual accounts of history. As a German of a current generation you emphatically do not have to hang your head in shame at what happened; as a person who seeks to revise, shift blame to others, and justify by faux comparisons with the horrors of all out war what was done to the Jews and others by the NAZI state, and to further the ludicrous claim that the people, including those working in the system did not know what was happening, you should (be ashamed).
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8 hours ago, Morch said:
It wasn't claimed that Dey knew "the full extent". That you find Dey's version of things as definitive, true and correct is at odds with the court's view. All of the words you pour here in the service of historical revisionism would not change that. Same goes for cherry-picking bits from links, making bogus claims based on figures and statistics, cherry-picked as well. And let's not forget the trademark ignoring of any comment, fact or rebuttal that does not seat with the narrative pushed.
He quotes Richard Evans to support his claims that the Holocaust was not known about by the German People.
When David Irving advanced similar claims ( to those of Logosone) he was the subject of a hostile review by a book reviewer - American academic Deborah Lipstadt. Irving sued Lipstadt and her publishers Penguin Books for libel. Evans was a principal witness for the defence. Your post is actually an accurate summary of Evans's dismissal of Irvings claims !
Irving lost and had to pay costs.
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He is of course the very model of discretion.
There is a widely available video clip, of him indulging in what might be described as "kinetic discretion" against some demonstrators with whose viewpoint he took exception. Using boots, fists and brandishing a weapon - he actually had to be hauled away by cooler heads amongst his staff.
Wasn't crying though; maybe he has mellowed...
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3 hours ago, Logosone said:There is a thing called "chain of causation". It means that you first have to establish factual causation, in other words "but for the conduct of the defendant" would the harm have occurred? There were many camp guards in WWII. Many camps, in most there were no gassings. It certainly can not be said that being a camp guard inevitably resulted in gassing or killing of prisoners. But for the conduct of Dey would these killings have happened or not? In other words was Dey's conduct a direct factual causation in killing or gassing prisoners? Very obviously it was not. Plenty of guards watched over inmates but their conduct did not result in killings or gassings.
For example if A kills victim B then A is factually responsible for the killing. The birth of A's grandmother is a causally relevant condition but not a cause. On the other hand, A's gunshot, being a deliberate human intervention in the ordinary state of affairs, is elevated to the status of "cause".
This was just not the case with Dey's actions. Dey did NOT play a part in the holocaust, which refers to the killing of jews. Dey did not participate in the actual killing. Nor was Dey an accomplice. He had no direct, planning or causal connection with anyone who did any killing, and never worked actively to cause any killing.
He did not kill any Jews. He was not part, knowingly, of a scheme to kill Jews. He was unaware of such a scheme. When Dey was conscripted the holocaust was no known the way it is today. In 1943 a poll of Americans revealed that half of all Americans thought the holocaust was just a rumour. Dey did not know that he was doing anything other than being a tower guard.
To say he played a part in comitting 5000 murders is simply ludicrous.
As for knowing or not knowing, no-one is pretending that nobody knew, obviously some did, however the very vast majority of Germans simply did not know. They did not participate in the killings, only 0.11 percent of the Wehrmacht were found guilty of that, they had no jewish neighbours (only 400,000 - 500,000 in Germany at the time, 80 million Germans).
You illustrate this yourself in your Celle story when you say "but it was, I am now sure, a secret kept by her father, and her uncles (whom I met) and the old boys with whom I spent such happy times running model trains!", of course those who were involved had every motivation in the world to keep it secret. Some didn't, but that was a very small minority.
Most Germans did not know.
3 hours ago, Logosone said:As for knowing or not knowing, no-one is pretending that nobody knew, obviously some did, however the very vast majority of Germans simply did not know. They did not participate in the killings, only 0.11 percent of the Wehrmacht were found guilty of that, they had no jewish neighbours (only 400,000 - 500,000 in Germany at the time, 80 million Germans).
You illustrate this yourself in your Celle story when you say "but it was, I am now sure, a secret kept by her father, and her uncles (whom I met) and the old boys with whom I spent such happy times running model trains!", of course those who were involved had every motivation in the world to keep it secret. Some didn't, but that was a very small minority.
Most Germans did not know.
Everyone in Celle in 1945 was aware of "The Great Celle Rabbit Hunt". That is a lot of people. Then consider the numbers of other people who lived adjacent to all the other camps, the people who worked in the industries which used the slave labour which they provided, all those who worked on the railways which played such a major part in moving the victims, all those who simply saw the trains pass through stations whilst they waited on the platforms, and so on and so on. It is quite simply incredible that what was going on was unknown. Oh they may have not known the details, how many died in which week, and from what causes, but absolutely it must have been common knowledge that something awful, and broadly understood, was going on in these camps, both within Germany itself and throughout the Reich.
Only a very small proportion of the Wehrmacht or SS were convicted, true. Only a very small proportion of the German Armed Forces were prosecuted, true. There were many prisoners held by May 1945, millions. The pressure ion the Western Allies was to demobilise them, get them home, to start to rebuild Germany. The East had perhaps slightly different priorities, to use them to rebuild the damage from the war in the Soviet Union and what had become it's satellite states. There were very limited resources to screen and investigate. I had the privilege of speaking to men (at a veterans reunion which I was involved in hosting) who went into Belsen in the hours after the liberation of the camp. They were of the opinion, forcefully expressed, that every single German in uniform, should have been held in the camps and the parts which they played rigorously investigated. I'm sure that opinion was shared by those who went into Birkenau, Dachau, Auschwitz and every other place where the 3rd Reich, and the men who served it, (as did Dey, however humble their role) had uncovered the entrances to hell. That was of course not possible, so the vast majority of perpetrators went unpunished.
As for the poll of Americans in 1943, that was 2 years before the camps were liberated. Quite probably many of those polled only had the haziest of ideas as to why the US was at war with Germany. Maybe they should have been asked again in 1946, when the facts were known, and the men who had discovered them had returned home.
Anyway, like @stevenl I'm leaving the subject - it is clear that you will not accept the involvement of that generation of Germans in what happened, nor the inevitable and inescapable fact that they must have known. Further discussion will only lead, I suspect, to denial, at least of the scale of the Holocaust, if not of it's very existence.
I'm out.
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6 hours ago, Logosone said:Knowledge of the holocaust was certainly not universal in the German military.
If you read Richard Evans, he makes clear that German documentation went to great lengths to disguise mass killings. Why use the term "Special treatment" if not to hide what was actually meant.
Dey may have heard rumours of gas chambers, but it was war time. A lot of the talk about the holocaust would have been dismissed as propaganda.
Only 0.11% of the German military were convicted of war crimes. Those involved were an incredibly small minority.
Dey was not guilty of anything. He was a tower guard. He killed nobody. Yet he is convicted of 5000 plus murders? And nobody bats an eyelid?
In the late 1970s early 1980s I spent three years (as part of a much longer career), as a British Soldier, based in a place called Celle, a small town between Hannover and Luneburg in Lower Saxony. Perhaps slightly unusually amongst my peers, (even then I was regarded as a dangerous radical) I made some efforts to interact with the local community. I spoke some German from school, and worked hard to improve it. I spent several months - the best part of a year - enthusiastically chasing the affections of a (gorgeous) local girl, the daughter of a "senior and well regarded" member of the community - her family name prefixed by "Von". I joined the local Model Railway Club, based in an old signal box at the main railway station.
Amongst all the Germans (of the generation who had lived/served during the war) the recurrent mantra was "of course we knew nothing of all that". Information was much less freely available back then (no internet) and so I accepted that at face value.
Celle is an important railway junction. The railway station and yards lie within the area of the town. One of the branch lines runs to Bergen Hohne, a few kilometres away, and then known as Bergen Belsen. The trains carrying their tragic cargoes to that camp would have been marshalled in those yards, and run through the station and out through the suburbs of the town. In early 1945, during an air raid on the railway yards, a large number of Jews, bound for Belsen, escaped from a train and hid in the heathlands and pine forests to the North and West of Celle. What followed was known as "The Great Celle Rabbit Hunt". The adult and teenage population of the town enthusiastically hunted down the escaped inmates. Some were beaten to death, most were returned to the camps, marched through the streets. Their pitiful state could hardly have gone unnoticed. At the time I knew nothing of this - it was never mentioned. The Internet has allowed it to be known now.
Now I don't think that the entire community must carry endless guilt for this - I am sure that the lovely Julianna (ah such memories!) would be horrified to know of it - but it was, I am now sure, a secret kept by her father, and her uncles (whom I met) and the old boys with whom I spent such happy times running model trains! It was most certainly not an "unknown". That, and the knowledge of what happened throughout the sorry mess which was the Third Reich must be admitted. Only then, and even now, can that guilt be expunged. Pretending that no-one knew, or that there were comparable atrocities, or that it is exaggerated (yes I have read David Irving's spittle flecked apologist books on the subject) simply prolongs the "national guilt"
This fellow played a part in the holocaust, he was a camp guard. It is right that his guilt, as part of that terrible action, should be confirmed, I also think that it is right that mercy was demonstrated in sentencing him, as a man in his 90s. Mercy which was not displayed to those he guarded.
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44 minutes ago, Bangkok Barry said:
As for the tourists who have been spending their enforced time in the country by putting money into the economy every day, they have been given a pretty stark warning that they are no longer wanted in the country. Okay, many might have been able to leave before, but still. I wonder how many countries like to discourage tourists. They like the country, believe all the faff from TAT, come and spend and then are told that, actually, you've spent enough time and have to get out. We don't want you here anymore.
I honestly don't think that there is any official policy to discourage foreigners from visiting, or living here. There is some occasional "loose mouthed xenophobic talk" but it does not represent any sort of policy. In fact I don't think there is a policy on the matter really.
Rather, it is the familiar problem ( with Thai governance) of the left hand not knowing (or bothering) what the right hand is doing. The problem is compounded because like the Hindu Goddess ( Kali is it?) there are half a dozen or more arms waving around!
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On 7/24/2020 at 12:20 PM, stouricks said:
Totally agree. I am on my second NUC, i5, 256 SSD, 8 GB RAM, W10 2004, PRO, Express VPN, through a 55 inch Samsung Series 5 NON Smart telly,, absolutely perfect
I am terrifically impressed, I really am.
I just wish I had the slightest glimmer of an idea about what it all means!
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19 hours ago, Logosone said:
You wrote above, anyone can see, "Your reasoning behind the stats is way off, you can't just relate the 20k convicted to the total number of wehrmacht soldiers for quite a few reasons."
So what reasons would these be?
Presumably you believe more than 0.11% of the Wehrmacht were involved in war crimes. Why is this?
Some years ago I read an absolutely spine chilling book titled "The Good Old Days". It was an account of the Holocaust in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union, compiled from interviews with and accounts of the activities of some of the perpetrators. What was absolutely clear was that participation in and knowledge of the killings and the whole process was widespread, if not universal, thought the German Military. They knew what had been done, they new what retribution was coming. Why do you think that such large elements of the German armed forces fought so desperately up to the end.
If this fellow was a guard, irrespective of his age, volunteer or conscript, he knew what was going on in the camp. The machine gun in his tower wasn't just for him to lean on!
Guilt is guilt, irrespective of his age. The court showed mercy in its verdict, mercy which was denied to the thousands who died in the camp he guarded.
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Trump raises possibility of delaying November U.S. presidential election
in World News
Posted
Well, goodness me, whoever would have thought!