The Cipher

I'm gonna double down on my comment. I'm not 'woke', just bluntly honest in this case. I hit a bunch of nerves and now some people are triggered. I don't even object to said comments because they're discriminatory. I mean jeez, this entire comment is just me discriminating against the less intelligent/cultured. So I'm the last person you'll find throwing woke stones. If I object at all, it's because it's painful to watch many of the posters on here struggle to form cogent ideas (let alone correct ones) about different groups that they obviously know like zero about, but speak as if they're experts on. The racism thing is just one facet of a wider general tendency for AN members (as a generalization) to blame externalities for the challenges they face in their lives. The government, the Hi-So, the <ethnic> foreigners, the wealthy... And yeah, I'm being a dick by writing this. But there's no lie in my words. If the reader of this comment has spent meaningful time on this board and can't recognize the truth in this statement, I daresay it says more about the reader than the statement ????

Wealth enables 'misbehavior'. I'd never suggest that wealth is a claim to moral superiority, whatever that even means - if anything, it's the opposite. It's this. Speaking for myself here (but probably generalizable), I don't really care what a person's private proclivities are. I care that when I'm out and about and we share a space or interact, that their appearance, mannerisms, and attempts at forming ideas don't actively irritate me. I'm assuming this is also where TAT is coming from, but who knows.

So I work in high finance and can confirm that this is, to some degree, true. Have seen some insane stuff. Have also been to a couple of parties hosed by wealthy Thais here that also have a bajillion hired escorts around as well as other forms of less-legal entertainment. So it's true that both high wealth and low wealth people engage in 'degen' activities, but in my observation there tend to be major differences in behavior and presentation in general between those groups. Sure, Finance Bro might bang a hooker, but he knows how to clean up nice and present well when out and about the city. He's less likely to be offensively loud or alternative in style/action. He fits more seamlessly into the picture of society that Thailand's elites envision. And there are already enough locals that don't (yet) fit into that picture, so from the pov of Thailand's Elites, why would they want to import more from overseas? And if you've worked on the Street or with HNW folks in general, then you know that there tends to be a massive difference in idea quality and life outlook compared to, say, the average poster on this forum (proxy for the average farang in Thailand? Tho maybe not anymore). Gotta say - a move upmarket, whether realistic or not, would be kinda nice.

The number of overtly racist comments on this board is mind blowingly high. "The Russians" "The Indians "The Chinese", it's nuts. But at the same time I don't think it's racism born of malice so much as it is an expression of frustration by older people who have seen people of other cultures advance in the world and feel that said advancement has come at their own expense. Many older farang don't feel as important as they used to, and that loss in status has made them bitter. ????‍♂️

Nice! This is happening faster than I would've thought for an Asian country. Hopefully this implementation goes well and the number of acceptable 'maskless areas' expands quickly.

God dammit, I'm in this demographic. It's usually me judging all of the old guys around, but my, how the tables have turned. Note to self: Tell gf to dress more conservatively to avoid mischaracterization. (This post is tongue in cheek)

I arrived in Bangkok a week ago. The measures to prevent spread on arrival were not what I would consider 'excellent.' Specifically the arrivals area to link up with the traveler's Test & Go hotel is a disorganized mess that allows for a lot of interaction with the general airport staff. That entire area is unsupervised too, so if I wanted to do a runner and skip out on Test & Go entirely, I probably could've done so.

Yeah. Something feels off about those stories. I wouldn't be surprised if some posters were fibbing in an attempt to gain clout. Not sure if it's enjoying a booming time right now, but luxury segment definitely does exist. Have written this before, but the reason a large number of posters on here don't believe the luxury traveler exists in Thailand because they filter themselves into places that they can afford/where they feel comfortable, then naturally see others like themselves in those spaces and assume it's representative of the entire market. The fact that resorts like the Ritz at Phulay Bay and the Six Senses Yao Noi exist in Thailand should say plenty. Pretty sure it isn't backpackers staying there, yo. Birds of a feather and whatnot.

Just speaking honestly, there's definitely an undercurrent of entitlement in many forumers here. But not like, smug entitlement. Rather, the frustrated entitlement of people who feel that their due is being denied to them. And this is mixed in with the loss of esteem that comes from declining status in the world. My suspicion is that a lot of the old guys here were pretty mundane/overlooked in their home countries for much of their lives. And then they moved to Thailand a few decades ago and felt wealthy and important for the first time ever. Or perhaps they felt they should have felt wealthy/important, who knows? But in the time since, the world has changed. Price levels have risen while pensions may have remained fixed. Technology has advanced, and changing geopolitical fortunes have resulted in the rise of other cultures. So a lot of the retirees here sense a loss of status, but probably can't fully explain why (although I'm articulating it for them right now). They want to be seen as wealthy, but aren't. They want to feel important, but don't. And in part due to age, skill, and/or IQ constraints, they aren't able to change that situation. So a bitterness emerges and is constantly fueled by reminders that the world has moved on and by the sense of powerlessness that comes with that. It's a really interesting human case study. Yes there's a lot of objective racism on this board, but when you put it into context it's actually more of a sad picture than a nasty one. There are also a lot of lessons for younger people on pitfalls to avoid in life.

Ok I'm choosing chaos. Since everyone seem to feel that their class of foreigner is the economic engine of Thailand, I decided to mock up this table as a thought experiment. We know that pre-Covid there were approx 30-35 million foreign arrivals in Thailand each year. We know that there are maybe 100,000 foreign retirees in Thailand. So if we make some reasonable spend and volume assumptions about each of these groups, we can roughly gauge their importance to the economy (which is what TAT cares about). Assuming that lower wealth tourists spend just over USD $1,000 per trip, and higher wealth tourists spend USD $10,000 per trip, we see that we only need 2 million higher wealth tourists to make up the equivalent of 20 million(!) lower wealth tourists. Added bonus of not having the country overrun by the LQ type of foreigner. We see that middle class tourists actually are the sweet spot, spending about $3,000 per trip and contributing 50% more to the economy in total compared with the other two short term categories. This is what Thailand should be targeting. Finally we see that there are only approx 100,000 foreigners holding retirement visas in Thailand. If each of them spends 1,000,000 THB per year we see that their contribution is relatively smaller than every other short term group. Because someone is gonna get triggered and tell me that I'm wrong, I even included an extra line where we 3x the stated lifer volume and the conclusion remains the same. To be clear, I do think that retirees/lifers do contribute to the country in ways beyond their economic impact, and it's nice to see you guys helping your communities grow. I just wanted to provide some context to why TAT visions might be different from AseanNow perspectives.

Damn, the level of self-importance mixed with butthurt in this post is next level.

I've never been to Pattaya but in Bangkok at least, it's true that there are some uh, interesting looking characters that make up a noticeable amount of the Western foreigners here. And I'm in no position to judge people on their life choices, but as more middle and upper class Thais gain international experience I can certainly understand why the prevalence of this type of foreigner annoys/embarrasses them. Like, just honestly, it's true. This is true. AseanNow forumers tend to be the demographic that's interested in the naughty nightlife, so they naturally assume that everyone else is too. Then they assume that the alternative to that is beaches/temples, which is slightly more true but still not what I, personally, think is most attractive about Thailand (Bangkok). I'm attracted to the conventional entertainment and lifestyle opportunities here that I think are both diverse in scope and good value for money. That lifestyle isn't objectively 'cheap' for the people trying to survive on less than $1,000/mth, but it is cheaper than a comparable lifestyle in many other places and therefore what I consider to be good value within an amenity-rich and vibrant city setting.

I'm in the bucket that TAT would probably classify as the high earning desirable foreigner. And although I'm sad that there aren't more people like me in Thailand, I do have to admit that the put-down-roots type of foreigner (frequently found on this board) are, in some ways, better for the country than I am. People like you guys are committed and invested in your communities for the long haul. Whereas I think that a lot of the people in my bucket remain flexible by design and are a lot more mercenary with capital allocation. I'm in Thailand because it meets my needs at the current time. But if it ever stopped, I'd be gone tomorrow. And I can understand why TAT targets wants to move upmarket, because honestly, there really is a lot of riffraff from Western countries that pools here (I don't mean anyone in particular here but also am not sorry if I trigger anyone with that statement). But I do wonder if TAT's aims are too upmarket. I think the country's ideal market to target would be nice middle class tourists and retirees.

Thanks for sharing. It's good to see sentiment trending towards ever less concern. It would've been cool if this poll had been conducted at regular intervals throughout the pandemic so we could examine the evolution of the time series. The article contained an indication that a the pollsters conducted a similar survey in July, but didn't see a quick way to access the data series.

Do we need restrictions for Omicron? No. (Honestly, it's been a couple of weeks now and this flaccid variant doesn't even have one single confirmed kill). But restrictions throughout the pandemic haven't been determined based on threat level though, but rather politics and (mass market) optics. So I wish I could be as sure as you that there won't be any new inconveniences imposed, but if case counts rise and therefore societal fear rises, I wouldn't be surprised to see some restrictions reflexively slapped on to placate the citizenry.

Oh I just saw this. You don't have to apologize to me and no offense taken. It's just a difference in definition. For what it's worth, I do know people who run e-commerce businesses online (I do this too, actually but mine's tiny) and are able to run the operation alone or manage their employees from abroad. I do think that recent developments are increasingly ushering in a paradigm shift in the world of work. Referring specifically to income-sustainable travel bloggers or whatever, yeah I'm sure some of those guys exist, but there can't be too many. Covid probably forced a lot of them at the margins into other employment too.

Holy, this had never occurred to me and might actually solve a problem I had elsewhere. Thanks! ???? Most would disagree. This type of person still needs a residence somewhere for tax and legal purposes. The easy solution is to keep your residence as your home country, but this is not viable for everyone. A ton of threads on AseanNow seem to devolve into arguments over semantics (who wants to guess why?). I am defining this term as inclusive of all persons who are able to make a living over the internet and are whose ability to earn sufficient income for their needs is not dependent on being in any specific physical location. For example prior to Covid this would not have included me, because I was trapped in an office Mon-Fri. But because of post-Covid changes in work it now does include me, as well as many others. This is the definition that seems to be the most congruent with the intention of the article. Long winded way of saying that there isn't only one type of person that is location independent just like how there isn't a single type of expat retiree in the world. Demographics vary. Income and wealth levels vary. There's gonna be broke guys just barely getting by, and there's gonna be guys doing 7 figures a month in e-commerce (and everything in between).

This forum skews pretty old, so I do find myself curious about how many under 40s you speak to. Since, you know, most remote workers are in general younger than this forum demographic. I'm an investment analyst by day and have started spending a few months of each year working remotely in Bangkok. Girlfriend in enterprise software sales does the same. We're both 30 and many of our friends in Thailand are also able to make good livings online either via remote work or other forms of e-com. And I'm not hiding on the internet. Will be flying into Bangkok on Tuesday (Covid-willing) and staying through March. You can probably find me if you're really that curious if we actually exist ????.

Hi there ????

Maybe this is just me, but I could do without the plucky 'charm' of overcoming local administrative obstacles. Running a business and a job are time/effort consuming enough. I split time between Vancouver and Bangkok and ideally I want the transition to/from locations be seamless, efficient, and optimized. It's not bad now, but could be better. Solving admin problems might be a 'spunky life experience' for some people, and I get that, but I think there are better things for me to be spending my time on at this stage.

As one of these mythical remote workers that keeps getting discussed, I've been totally fine just renting. But the option to buy is always nice of course, since optionality does have value. What I'd most like to have is a more convenient visa that offers an elegant multi-entry and long-stay solution with minimal hassle. Would also like to be able to open a local bank account and apply for local financial products.

The irony in that last paragraph is straight unbelievable.

This is the problem I'd worry about most when trying to start an investment group in Thailand. I'm sure that there are some very good investors in the country, but suspect that efficiently identifying them given the typical caliber of expat will be difficult. Many of the competent guys are also probably also actively keeping a low-ish profile. Nevertheless, I hope that you're able to find a good club. I'm sure it can be done, just will require some patience.

Lol. He tried to twist a previous argument of mine the same way too. That guy's absolute fav accusation is that anyone who claims to be vaccinated but doesn't feel the incredible compulsion to force everyone else to get vaccinated must be lying about their own vax status to run a false flag op. The Covid argument is gonna run in circles on here (and elsewhere) until the end of time. Or at least, until the end of Covid - so pretty much the same thing. Participating in Covid debates is a waste of time unless you feel confident that you have a chance to materially shape policy. If you're angry about the situation, the best use of your energy is probably to work on self/skill/income improvement. The best revenge is winning at life.

A lot of people are complaining that Bangkok isn't 'cheap' because they can't live the life they want on <income amount> per month. But could you live extravagantly anywhere on, for example, $500/mth? Why would you expect to be able to do it in Bangkok? In fact, Bangkok is good value because experience per dollar goes far. The right comparable isn't whether you can survive on <income amount>, it's about what that amount gets you in Bangkok relative to the other cities you'd consider living in. Although this might be a little harsh, I kind of think the root cause of the complaints about prices are actually due to an income problem that is then blamed on the externality of Bangkok.