way2muchcoffee

The full transparent and open discussion of the Budget is the Best Anti Corruption tool: important in a democracy: if you have nothing to fear, it should not be an issue to discuss openly the Budget. Put it on the table: I do not believe your rhetorics until it is followed by actions. Decisions of Politicians are converted in actions in the Budget....

you do not want to show the Budget...well, in this case, you want to hide something. As simple as this... No budget, No credibility of your rhetorics

I previously asked you if you had done a search for the budget prior to making malicious allegations. You evaded the question. Instead you decided to cast further aspersions. I have now posted a link to the budget (scroll up as it is a few posts back). I found this budget in just a few minutes, so obviously you made no attempt whatsoever to find it. You state that 'the government has no credibility in its rhetoric'. Perhaps you should reflect on your statements and consider your own rhetoric and credibility.

Because like some other posters, involved in governmental projects few years ago, I have gotten an "apercu" about the way the Budget is done. (very opaque)

It has been a great step for Democracy in our Countries, that the Medias have succeeded to open the discussion of the Budget in the public: it has not been always the case. For fighting the Corruption it is a very powerful tool: everybody can check the Budget in what he has knowledge. Governments have to stop to lie about the promises done and not budgeted....

It is a big step for Democracy (In France, I have been witness of a journalist putting his life at stake in a corruption affair. A friend of mine save his life.)

This is independant of Red or yellow... This is a large step forward for Thailand.

Please have a look at this website. It is the the Thailand Bureau of the Budget government website.

http://www.bb.go.th/bbhomeeng/page.asp?opt...%2F510110-00001

You can download a 70-page pdf file that is a summary of the budget for 2010. You can download budget details for every year back to 1999.

http://www.bb.go.th/bbhomeeng/page.asp?opt...p;folddsc=04003

This took me 5 minutes using google to find. It's even in English!

we have to focus on the Budget because obviously nobody want it on the table....probably too much lies and manglings behind...

This is a major Anti Corruption tool: transparency of the Budget.

Malicious speculation without any facts.

The full transparent and open discussion of the Budget is the Best Anti Corruption tool: important in a democracy: if you have nothing to fear, it should not be an issue to discuss openly the Budget. Put it on the table: I do not believe your rhetorics until it is followed by actions. Decisions of Politicians are converted in actions in the Budget....

you do not want to show the Budget...well, in this case, you want to hide something. As simple as this... No budget, No credibility of your rhetorics

What I'm saying Jerry is that you do not have the facts and neither do I. Have you visited all of the Thai government websites to search for budgets? How do you know that it is not published somewhere? Have you contacted government agencies to ask? How many phone calls have you made? How many websites have you visited? Do you read Thai at an advanced level? If the budget is a published document it would certainly not be published in English or French. Do you know the proper Thai word or phrase for 'fiscal budget'? How many inquiries have you made? When all of those measures failed did you visit the government agencies personally?

I have no idea whether it is a published document or not. But you sit and claim that there is no budget, no budget, no budget. I think you have not done due diligence. And I think it is irresponsible then to criticize the government and accuse them of hiding of information and corruption.

why do you answer for waytoomuchcoffee in first person singular?

you blogging together or if you same person all same. nobody believe your bull if you post it in 20 names and repeat all day.

that is just propaganda and the drug war worked very good for some time there was little drugs in country and dealers did stop and many run away. was good but you not see it so not know. again only propaganda from you.

I strongly object. I have one and only one nickname. It is unfortunate that pornassi used the first person in his post and it appeared that we are one and the same. If you read my posting history and that of pornassi you will clearly see that we are not the same person. I have nothing at all against pornassi. He is another poster and seeks knowledge and understanding, as do I. Our political leanings are different. And that is ok. In any case, you are way off base in your accusations.

Way2muchcoffee

IMHO I fully agree with you . The conduct of the reds , not allowing other parties , like the dems freedom of speech in the North is absolutely unaceptable . Their red propaganda even in central Thailand is depicting Abhisit as the boogy man and ppl believe that propaganda , its really sad .

On the other end one must be objective and see what would happen in the South if a PTP politicians tried to hold an electoral meeting . Same thing . Had the political parties done their job of serving the ppl instead of lining their pocket before 2001 , a flawed demagog (they all flawed) like Thaksin would never had been abble to gain such influence in thai politics . Ppl might then be more inclined in the North to listen to many views . And had Thaksin done his job for the South , ppl there would be more inclined to listen to the PTP .

Anyway Thaksin , if not yet his influence , is out for good . thanks God .

Now hopefully the politicians (whichever those that are in power) finally start do their job to serve the Nation and the people and then i guess everybody will listen to everybody

Well I haven't read much of PTP/PPP/TRT being attacked or killed in the south. I do remember that the PAD was hounding PPP reps with demonstrations and hand clappers. This was totally inappropriate. Even Abhisit stated as much. In any case, I am totally in agreement with you regarding politicians doing their job and serving the nation. I truly and honestly believe Abhisit has been doing exactly that, despite being surrounded by the likes of Suthep and other dinosaurs of the Democrat party. My estimation of Abhisit could well be misinformed and I can accept that, but in the decade I've been living here he strikes me as the most honest and least corrupt PM in recent years. And for this reason I will hang my hat with him, at least until I am confronted with evidence that makes me drop that support.

....the army wrote the present constitution to try to prevent Thaksin-policy supporters from gaining power

I've hear this stated numerous times, but I've never seen any evidence to suggest it.

Would you please explain precisely which clauses in the 1997 constitution were removed, and which clauses were added to the new constitution that were specifically aimed at preventing Thaksin-policy supporters from gaining power? Please show the connection between the changes to a deliberate attempt to weaken Thaksin-policy supporters.

Dear Waytoomuchcoffee, I've read a number of your posts and there is zero point at all in us having any debate/discussion on here....you do not/will not/cannot listen, and are blinded by hatred for Thaksin, and have swallowed so much yellow propaganda that you cannot see, analyse or think straight.

I will not waste my time trying to engage in a conversation with a deliberately deaf person....if you are happy to accept that deposing a popularly elected leader in violation of the constitution in effect at the time; rewriting a slanted constitution, giving amnesty to the coup participants, and threatening to throw people into jail for 10 years if they campaign against it; then so be it...be happy in your blind ignorance...frankly I cannot respect your either your intellect or integrity....

So you are unable to provide the information requested. You could just say that. Instead you compose a letter of criticism without even bothering to answer a totally legitimate question. So there it is.

Your observation is correct but of course there are a lot of poor as well

Yes, I do not deny there are probably a lot of poor people in the South and their problems have to be adressed as well. The initial question was: why the Northern people and not the Southern one are demonstrating?

I will add that I have gotten a shock the first time I have visited my in Law family (average people in the issan village). except a TV, a motorbike, and a running water tap in the garden, I was transported to Middle Ages: wooden house plenty of holes in the walls, big "tokays circulating freely, ground in trodden earth, not a window or door fitted and closing correctly, no kitchen, no bathroom, just an outside room with a water tub and a hole... and most of the other village houses are similar. From Sakhorn Nakhon to Nakhon Phanom and to Siwilai, plenty of identical villages. About roads (in fact tracks): the worst is probably the Siwilai area with trees growing in the middle of asphalt, huge holes on main roads joining villages...I have never seen such a similar situation in Southern Thailand

Then you probably haven't spent much time in rural areas in the South would be my guess.

we have to focus on the Budget because obviously nobody want it on the table....probably too much lies and manglings behind...

This is a major Anti Corruption tool: transparency of the Budget.

LOL ...

ummmm you have anything else to talk about? The budget hasn't been written yet. The opposition party is strong enough to block budget ites. Well, rather, they WOULD be powerful enough if they actually did anything as an opposition party

Screaming about something that hasn't been written yet AND that will be overseen by a LARGE and vocal opposition is kinda stupid dontcha think?

Show us what are the proposals of the Government in the Budget they present in few days... Easy

In modern countries the Budget is presented to Everybody, the French Budget 2010 is in Wikipedia...The discussion of the budget is the Major politician act in a Country. Transparency is nowadays required by Populations: this transparency is the best Anti corruption tool.

Journalists are presenting the Budget and the discussions going with in most western Countries. preparation of the budget has to be transparent to the Nation.

Also it will show the consistency between the Rhetorics and the actions....

SHOW US THE BUDGET... EVERY MODERN AND DEMOCRATIC COUNTRIES ARE TRANSPARENT ON THIS POINT.

You have now crossed at least three separate threads with you budget demands. Please show me the budget of the Thaksin years. Shou me the budget of the PPP. Show me the budget of the PTP. In my country there is typically a 'shadow' budget produced by the opposition party. Show me this shadow budget. If you are going to make claims or innuendo of malfeasance please back them up with facts.

we have to focus on the Budget because obviously nobody want it on the table....probably too much lies and manglings behind...

This is a major Anti Corruption tool: transparency of the Budget.

Malicious speculation without any facts.

There is no law that justified the massacre of 10. april.

And it is the day where Abhisit and Suthep lost their legitimacy to lead the country.

You mean the day peaceful protesters took up arms against their government, military, and police? You mean the day peaceful protesters killed 5 soldiers, several civilians, and assassinated military officers?

You are mistaken. This is the day the red shirts lost all legitimacy.

is funny to see democrats fail to make army and police do their work of keep them in power.

Better you right book than try to understand thai politik

Chances are I understand Thai politics a whole lot better than you my friend. I read Thai pretty well, we can continue this via PM if you wish - so long as you can actually give some rational argument rather than spout rhetoric.

Here's one question I'd like you to answer, in Thai or English, on the forum or by PM:

There are 76 provinces in Thailand. Why are all the 'poor people' from all the other provinces not at Rajaprasong?

I travel a lot through Thailand and I have observed than Southern Thailand is richer than the Northern one: rice, two crops per year, Rubber trees better productivity as they are less affected by drought, tourism (Phuket, Krabi, Ko Samui, and now Ko Lippe, Ko Tarutao, Hat Yai for Malaysian people, Trang for Chinese- direct bus to Singapore...). and now Palm trees culture are starting.

Mangrove sheltering fish and shrimp farms....

So you are saying there are not huge numbers of poor people in the south?

is funny to see democrats fail to make army and police do their work of keep them in power.

Better you right book than try to understand thai politik

Chances are I understand Thai politics a whole lot better than you my friend. I read Thai pretty well, we can continue this via PM if you wish - so long as you can actually give some rational argument rather than spout rhetoric.

Here's one question I'd like you to answer, in Thai or English, on the forum or by PM:

There are 76 provinces in Thailand. Why are all the 'poor people' from all the other provinces not at Rajaprasong?

Because they have better memory than you and remember how many killed in past when government can control army. look CNN reports from up north, see that peopole there stop army and police. can support from the province and stop government work outside bangkok.

if you don't know thailand, i can tell you people in south are different peoples and language and control by democrat mafia in south. can show me you are ignorant if you think different to this.

poor yes, stupid to go put all eggs in one basket. no. enough at rachprasong,

sorry that because clever falang fail to help govenment from behind keyboard make you angry

So now please tell me yes no have corruption and mafia in phukit and surathani?

So in essence you are saying two things. The rural people in the south support the government because (1) they are afraid, and (2) they aren't really Thai.

Hmmm.

The world understands a government trying to disperse a mob of insurgents. The world does not understand an attack on a hospital, except as pure evil.

so let me get this right,,your calling all those thousands of ppl (some died and hundreds got injured) who "defended" their rally site on april 10th as insurgents????

Yes. When you take up arms against your country's government, police, and military you can properly be labeled an insurgent.

Hola! Hola! Hola!

Before declaring the Red shirts a band of murderers, terrorists... Cool down. They are people embarked in a spiralling of violence and the Government is far to be fully clean in this story. We are under stress of propaganda from both sides, and at the outcome, few months later, we will have some surprises about the actions done by both sides.. Please refrain to give so strong judgment in the middle of the crisis, we have only part of the information and we are under flow of propaganda.

1- Northern Population has something to say, something very deep coming from the bowels; so they will say it and even some are ready to put their life in balance: it is a very strong comitment, I will say an exceptional one.

2- When the violence starts, even usually very reasonable people may be geared in the mechanisms, even nearly a whole population may drift (Example Germans during WWII or Serbians recently). Basically people are like you and me, they are not murderers or terrorists but they are dragged in the stream.... they fight for their believings and the fight is becoming more and more violent, they forget the normalcy, the abnormal is becoming day after day the reference. How many people are able to resist? The first thing is to stay cool and relativise all those events, comparing with similar situations, trying to understand both parties and find the way to defuse not to fuel the situation. Overreaction drives to more violence which may become uncontrollable

3- Inside the Group, the moderate leaders are probably loosing grip which can be considerate as normal in such a crowd process.

4- For the "Va-en-guerre" people of this forum, (Those who want an immediate and strong military operations), just think about the consequences in Northern Thailand if hundred of people are killed: each family will have a strong reason to join the insurrection, and yes, then, we will be spiralling definitively in the real Civil war.

Please we have to remain "Civil", to stay cool and to think that if we were in their position maybe we will not react differently.

To keep his own criticism is already very difficult for highly educated people.

The solution is through the dialog. Strong actions will not solve the problem, just may postpone it and in such a case, with a Damocles sword over Thailand, investors will flee to better stable skies: it will be the end of the good fortune.....

I think this is quite possibly the best post you have ever made Jerry. It is very easy to forget one's values in the heat of anger, fear, hostility, and violence. Thank you for pointing this out.

I think he was referring to the fact that neither Thai Police nor the Army have "seized caches of rocket-launched grenades from the Red Shirts".

I think the article refers to the 63 grenades seized on delivery during the Don Meuang incident and the subsequent arms cache seized from the police sergeant who later confessed to be an arms dealer.

I can understand the Washington Post might have trouble with arms seized by police from the police while the military was shooting the military (later identified as unknown black guard)

Neither being a police officer nor an arms dealer means that you are a red.

You are correct. This information, if it is known by authorities, has not been announced. Last word was that an investigation is ongoing. It was a mistake by the Washington Post to print that line. He may be a red, or his clients may be red, but as of know that information has not been made public and we do not know.

Brilliant - lets have a massacre of democracy demonstrators in central Bangkok that would likely spark a civil war - in order to ensure the '''''elite'''' children's school term begins on time.

They are not democracy demonstrators. They are criminals, insurrectionists, and terrorists.

And it isn't just the elite parents who will be demanding action from the government. Middle class and poor families love their children as well. In fact, much of Bangkok is demanding the same.

Utter Drivel

The vast majority of red shirts are ordinary people. There may be a small number of nasty undesirables amongst them ( amongst the other sides as well mind you ) but the idea of a massacre in order to allow a school term to start on time is just as repugnant if not more so than an invasion of a hospital.

It would appear that whatever colour shirt you might wear you show your true colours in your words.

Correction. They vast majority of red shirts were ordinary people. Then they chose to join a violent demonstration in which they murdered security forces and defied a state of emergency. Their organization has grown increasingly violent and is committing terrorist-like and/or violent acts on an almost daily basis. They are holding a large and important part of the capitol city of Thailand hostage. They have had every opportunity to leave the area. Anyone remaining is no longer an innocent, ordinary person. The ordinary people who are red shirt supporters have already left these demonstrations.

Please understand. In no way am I advocating going in and killing thousands. Negotiations must be the highest priority. But if these aren't successful then there will be no choice. The government cannot allow the capitol city to be taken hostage for much longer.

I think that will school starting in a couple of weeks there will be enormous pressure on the government to disperse the protesters.

If the Army doesn't act to break up the separate country in the middle of Bangkok (Redtown) then there will be enormous pressure on Abhisit to either dissolve parliament and bring in a national unity type of government (of existing MP's) in the interim or put together some other type of political solution and quick.

If not, then the job falls to Newin and his group along with Chamlong and his group.

Indeed. I think we can all agree though that a peaceful solution would by far be the best for everyone.

Brilliant - lets have a massacre of democracy demonstrators in central Bangkok that would likely spark a civil war - in order to ensure the '''''elite'''' children's school term begins on time.

They are not democracy demonstrators. They are criminals, insurrectionists, and terrorists.

And it isn't just the elite parents who will be demanding action from the government. Middle class and poor families love their children as well. In fact, much of Bangkok is demanding an end to the protests.

Wow this kind of activity really shows how

serious the red shirts are about democracy

Indeed it does, and the PAD apologists advocating shooting people does too.

The current situation is solely red related and red started

I would be so nice if red leaning posters could actually

post something other than the usual double standard

or PAD did this or that.

Did you read/understand my post? I'm not red and I was pointing out that PAD apologists currently advocating shooting people they disagree with isn't exactly "democratic" either.

I'm not advocating shooting people. I think an honest negotiation should take place and compromises should be made. If negotiations continue to fail, eventually the government will have to disperse the protesters. It is likely that people will be injured or killed if that takes place.

I do have a question for you. What does your government do when a criminal/terrorist/insurrectionist resists arrest, and uses war weapons to kill security forces?

1-3 more months i give the movement in its current form and then a mopping up opperration of the extreem remnants can take place, including a reshufling of all those police and millitary shown to not be doing thier duty. By the end of the year i'm hopefull thailand will be looking at a brighter future with the ruling coalition set up for a strong performance at the poles

I think it will be much less time than that. I think that will school starting in a couple of weeks there will be enormous pressure on the government to disperse the protesters.

Several of the oldest and most elite Thai schools in the country will be effected: Saint Joseph Convent School, several Assumption schools, Bangkok Christian College, Pathumwan Demonstration School, Mater Dei, Triam Udom Suksa, and many others.

These are old money schools. The parents of children attending these schools are by and large wealthy and connected people. They will not tolerate the threat to the safety of their children that the red shirt demonstrations pose.

Mcdonald's has not been bombed. This story is a fabrication, which is why you're not reading about it elsewhere.

I went past the Silom Macdonald's about midday; no broken windows or any other damage; the place is open and doing business as usual, mostly to farangs with cameras and long lenses pointed at the Red barricade across the way.

Time the Nation published a retraction and apology.

If you check the first page of this thread you will see the article came from TAN.

I checked today's live updates thread and couldn't find any article about it from The Nation. I also checked The Nation's website and couldn't find any article.

Pro-government activist admits on TV he led protests to beat up PAD protesters in Udon Thani

Kwanchai Praiphana, leader of the Udon Thani Guard Group, admitted during an interview on Channel 3 that he let his supporters to beat up protesters led by the People's Alliance for Democracy.

Kwanchai vowed to lead his supporters to beat PAD protesters again if they hold another rally in the northeastern province.

On Thursday, Kwanchai led hundreds of protesters demolish PAD's stage and beat up PAD protesters, seriously injuring two of them.

Kwanchai said he had warned local PAD supporters several times not to organise a rally in the province, because he regarded that anti-government rallies damaged the province's reputation.

"Yes, I did it and I am not afraid of legal action because I will be charged only public brawl charges," Kwanchai said.

"I've warned them several times that they must not come here."

The Nation

The more I hear about Kwangchai, the more I think he might be even more of a loose cannon than Seh Dang Kittaya, if that's possible. They're both very dangerous people and should have been locked up long ago. They're unabashedly out for blood, particularly to harm and kill PAD members. They represent the absolute worst in Thai/human nature.

A couple cold kills by gov't security snipers would be completely justified at this time.

As for amnesty. There will surely be talk of amnesty when this winds up. I strongly urge gov't not to offer any amnesties, except for people who implicate others of illegal acts, including details and names, which lead to convictions. In the same vein, I urge the government to hang tough with investigating and prosecuting all who break the law. Message to gov't: you've wimped out in trying to stem the spread of the rallies - please don't wimp out when it comes time to mete out justice. The Thai people deserve no less than firm justice and strict sentences for all who are breaking the law and intimidating and harming others.

I believe, without evidence, that this is the reason the last round of talks failed a week or so ago. I think the government was unwilling to grant amnesties and the red leaders said 'that's it then, no more talking', or something to that effect. I admit it is pure speculation, but that feels just feels like how it would have gone down.

It is disgusting and disgraceful that this hospital incident has been used as propaganda by Team Yellow, and patients have been moved for no reason other than for photo's by the craving Yellow media channels.

The Reds did not take weapons in.

They hurt nobody.

They beat nobody.

They killed nobody.

Nobody died.

Nobody suffered.

It was just a minor inconvenience for a short period of time.

What is disgusting is the Yellow media making all this patient moving happen just so they can take photo's for the propaganda.

Clearly you underestimate the seriousness of the red shirt actions at Chula. It doesn't matter if people were injured or died. That is not the point at all. The red shirts violated the sanctity of a hospital and interfered with medical workers. This is considered worldwide as a travesty and unforgivable. It is a war crime and against the Geneva Convention. You may disagree but the rest of the world will not be on your side on this.

I disagree, civil wars are starting with a minority of active people. Some Army and Police officers are deeply involved on either side, they can loose a lot from a return to normalcy if there is no preliminary agreement. (which has to include an amnesty for those who have no blood on their hands)

Could you articulate this last point a little more clearly please. Do the leaders who ordered bombings have blood on their hands or is it just those who threw the bombs? What if many higher-ups are implicated?

The general atmosphere is expected to become tense again after Mr Jatuporn told protesters that more people from upcountry would join them soon. The UDD is expected to make a major move to press the government later. (TNA)

Looks like another move on the way to pressure government. The government is starting to be better prepared for these 'events'. Hopefully this one won't result in more deaths or injuries, but I don't hold on to much hope for that.