way2muchcoffee

Man from Phichit asks Democrat to help send him, 24 friends home

BANGKOK: -- A man from Phichit went to the Democrat Party head office Friday and asked the party to help send him and 24 friends back home.

More evidence that many of the red shirts are being VICTIMIZED by their very own warlord leaders. They may have indeed been recruited to earn some money and have some excitement in the big city and conform to the red leadership of their home locality. But now many of them realize they have been duped by big money forces that do not have their interests in mind at all. Freedom and democracy indeed. Remember, this is how the red leaders abuse their OWN people. Does any foreigner STILL seriously believe the red shirts are a pro-freedom and democracy movement? How can you?

Add a few more people to the list of Isaan non-red supporters.

not really because this goverment has a lot more blood on its hands!! after the april 10th bloodbath

Really? I guess you haven't seen the video evidence of soldiers being targeted with grenades, red shirts toting AK47s, black clad men behind red shirt lines setting up, taking aim, and firing on security forces, snipers in windows, etc. etc. etc. The evidence is conclusive. The red shirts harbored a military force whose aim was to take out soldiers and their commanders. They may well have taken out 6 red shirt protesters to create a few martyrs along the way, according to autopsy reports.

Thaksin killed nobody. And the number of 2600+ Thai killed in the war of drug exaggerated and outdated and not conform with the latest investigation.

Prove it. Your statement is at odds with almost every report by domestic and international journalists.

One month ago PM Abhisit, promised to restore normalcy as soon as possible and without any losses.

End of this month we have so far more than 1,000 people injured and 27 killed. Most of them are the victims of a failed crackdown operation on April 10, in a few hours over 20 people dead and more than 800 injured.

That keeps a hospital busy.

My comment was an reply to an entry that was concerned about the loss of face and spoke about the biggest PR disasters because patients left the hospital. I said no reason to worry, the empty bedsides will be easy refilled if PM Abhisit continues with his marvellous work.

Understand it now?

The work of the PM is to restore order to the city of Bangkok and protect the millions of lives of the people who live there. He is unfortunately tasked with this on top of the onerous job of running a country.

The work of the red shirts is to disrupt the lives of the residents of Bangkok as much as they can apply decidedly undemocratic pressure on the government to dissolve, even if it means people are killed.

What is it going to take for this to end - some young children getting "accidentally" killed? What happens if the rabble believe troops are hiding in a school?

There are troops housed in schools in central Bangkok. I can definitely confirm this. I will not reveal any further details, in order to protect the school and the children, but it is most certainly true. There are also children present for summer classes, but the troops are housed safely out of sight.

Lets understand what happened.

Old Weng last night went on stage and said the government were hiding fully armed troops in Chula Hospital. Then later Payap went on stage and said the same thing. Then a very young woman journalist challeneged Payap to produce evidence. Payap obviously couldnt produce any at all but having had his word as a elitist Thai cahallenged by some young woman was quite hard for him to take. Lot sof the elite are like this. If they say something you are expected to believe it and for a young woman to challenge a rich powerful older man was just too much for old Payap who basically thought he would prove it by storming into the hospital. Then double loss of face. Not only was it shown that old Weng and old Payap were telling a few porkies but the condemnation for storming into a hospital gave the reds one of their biggets PR disasters to date and left any vestige of moral highground shattered while also taking what they had done past anything the yellows had ever done.

So when Weng issues his hollow apology where is his apology for whippng the incident up with his lies in the first place?

From where does this information come?

I didn't do to well at school, hated it and Maths was my worst subject result. But through out life I have acquired a basic knowledge of many things, including maths, to understand that for example, that Party A who received 34% of the vote was more favoured by the greater group of individuals than either Party B's group of individuals with 33% of the vote, or Group C being a mix of all the other parties with their groups of individauls with 32% of the vote. Simple maths and nothing confusing. I am neither fooled or misled. Its game on from there as the maths says you can have many different equations when the horse trading for Group's C groups of individuals begin.

With that impressive result of 33% of the proportional votes the Party B would get 26 or 27 seats of a 480 member strong parliament in Thailand. Party A probably 28 seats. (or with 39% a party can get 33/34 seats)

One party is a newcomer, new name, new faces, ignored or bad mouthed by the media and bullied by the Junta. The other party is well known since years and also their faces and getting the everybodies darling treatment by the media and the Junta.

Even more weight on the side of trusting the proportional vote results. Everyone knew the PPP was the TRTII. They may well not have known the individual representatives as they were new and therefore the constituency vote would possibly be skewed. However, in the proportional vote a vote for PPP was a vote for TRT. Every voter knew this. This gives even more credence to using the proportional vote as a measure of party popularity. And as I have already stated, the proportional vote is the only direct measure of party popularity.

Argue all you want mazeltov. I strongly believe you are wrong. You believe I am wrong. Fine. You try to cloud the issue with numbers of seats. The method of allotting seats in the constituency vote is not a direct measure of a party's popularity as that is a winner take all approach and not a one-man-one vote methodology.

Why do you think they call it the 'proportional vote'? It is because the proportional vote precisely measures the proportion of the population that support each party.

You are incorrect. Read my statement carefully. Look up the election results of 2007. Learn about how elections work under this constitution. You will see that my statement is accurate.

yes, you tried that trick before, but telling only a part of the truth is almost telling a lie.

Again I am talking about the number of people. So what if some people got three votes, some two, and some one vote in the constituency election? The constituency vote is not a direct assessment of the popularity of a party as a percentage of the voting population. You know that it is not. I am not hiding anything. The constituency election is irrelevant to the point I am making.

I am asserting that the the proportional election, the 'one man one vote', is the only way to accurately and directly measure the popularity of a party as a percentage of the voters. In the proportional vote the Democrats had more votes than the PPP. Therefore, as a percentage of the population of Thailand who voted in 2007 elections, the Democrats appealed to more individual people than did the PPP.

That is my opinion and it is shared by many others. You may have a different opinion and it to may be shared by others. In the real world people disagree. People quite frequently experience the same events and come to very different conclusions.

But there is also a good chance people will respect the leader THEY voted for directly themselves and not via some

shady deal behind closed doors deals between fellow MP 's.

Anyway surely trying this out is far better than people killing each other ?

The people don't vote for the PM. In the last election almost exactly the same number of people voted for the PPP as did for the Democrats. It was an even split.

That is not true, after so much talks some people still don't understand the election process.

You are incorrect. Read my statement carefully. Look up the election results of 2007. Learn about how elections work under this constitution. You will see that my statement is accurate.

I also like the idea of decentralised power to Regions (But not the current administrative division of Thailand, larger regions...something like 10 or 12 regions- Example Issan as a block). I have understood also that it was a key factor in the origin of the Southern unrest.

The decentralised (limited) power brings the democracy closer to People, eases their involvement in the surveillance of Politics and gives better results for the local infrastructure investment decisions.

If you give the regions more power who will bear the responsibility for funding the regions? It seems to me that the largest source of revenue must be the Bangkok area. If you grant regions more autonomy will Bangkok have to pay their way? You see this is one of the problems with the 30 baht health scheme, it gives cheap health care to the outer provinces. But for anything more than Tylenol 30 baht doesn't cover the cost. That means someone else is picking up the cost. Probably the middle class in places like Bangkok. So the TRT gave cheap health care to the rural people to get votes, and then stuck the middle class with the bill.

To be fair the middle and upper classes in most countries pay for the safety net and social services for the citizens, including the poor. Thailand is not too different from the rest of the world in that the rich get unfair advantage through tax loopholes that aren't available to the middle class.

Despite what has been reported in the press, evidently there is still some question as to who shot the soldier yesterday up near Don Muang. An autopsy is being performed by representatives from 5 medical schools.

Probably the results will be inconclusive, or maybe they won't be. I guess we'll find out.

Do you have a reference to where Sondhi says Thaksin is no more the issue? Just want to see what he may mean by that.

I have seen that Sondhi is quoted as "forgiving the important person now overseas" for masterminding his assassination attempt.

Just go to the live news updates for today Rabo. It was reported in a series of tweets from The Nation.

The USA has just updated their stance on travel to Thailand

Bangkok ACS ([email protected])

Updated on April 28, 2010

The State Department alerts U.S. citizens traveling to and residing in Thailand of ongoing demonstrations in Bangkok and Chiang Mai. Due to escalating violence in central Bangkok, demonstrations in Chiang Mai, and other incidents throughout Thailand, all U.S. citizens should avoid nonessential travel to Thailand. This replaces the Travel Alert dated April 22, 2010, to update information on security concerns and to recommend against nonessential travel to Thailand at this time. This Travel Alert will expire on July 28, 2010.

The United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (aka UDD or “red-shirts”) continues to demonstrate in central Bangkok. The UDD may change or expand its demonstration locations at any time. Various other groups are engaging in pro-government or counter-demonstrations in Bangkok and Chiang Mai. There have been several minor clashes between the UDD and other demonstrators. These clashes may escalate with no warning. For areas currently affected by demonstrations, please refer to local media.

Political demonstrations by the UDD are expected to continue in Bangkok indefinitely. As a result, traffic congestion and difficulty of movement is possible throughout Bangkok, and traffic patterns may change unexpectedly as demonstrators block roads. Other forms of transportation, such as the BTS Skytrain, may close unexpectedly in response to threats or incidents, such as occurred on April 27, when protesters jumped onto the tracks and tried to block the tracks with tires.

There have been numerous incidents of explosive attacks, including several isolated grenade attacks, in and around Bangkok and Chiang Mai over the past two months. Additional explosive devices have been discovered before detonation. Some of these incidents occurred at or near areas frequented by U.S. citizens. These incidents appear to be motivated by domestic politics and do not appear to be acts of international terrorism. The possibility of more such attacks cannot be ruled out. U.S. citizens are reminded to exercise caution and vigilance at all times. Immediately report to law enforcement or security personnel any unattended packages or bags or suspicious objects in public areas.

Supporters of a pro-Government movement known as “mixed shirts,” “no color,” or “multi-color” have begun nightly demonstrations in the Nimmanhemin area of Chiang Mai city, near Chiang Mai University, an area frequented by U.S. citizens. Media report that these supporters intend to repeat these nightly demonstrations indefinitely. Supporters of the UDD may confront these demonstrations. In the past, similar confrontations have turned violent.

On Saturday, April 10, UDD and Royal Thai Government security forces clashed in the Phanfa Bridge area, resulting in a number of fatalities. On April 27, UDD protesters clashed with police near the Thai Air Force headquarters at Don Muang. The UDD stopped and entered vehicles looking for military and police personnel. Media report that UDD leaders plan to block the movement of security forces from the provinces to Bangkok.

UDD supporters have threatened demonstrations in the provinces if its current demonstrations in Bangkok are forcibly dispersed, as occurred April 9, 10, and 24. Therefore, U.S. citizens should monitor public sources of information to stay abreast of the latest information concerning demonstrations and areas to avoid.

On the evening of April 22, 2010, several explosions occurred in the Silom/Sala Daeng area at the Sala Daeng BTS Skytrain station causing a number of injuries, including at least one fatality. The possibility of more such attacks cannot be ruled out. U.S. citizens should avoid travel to and lodging in this area.

The Royal Thai Government, under the order of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva, is still operating under a State of Emergency in Bangkok and surrounding areas, that grants special powers to the Royal Thai Police and Army. It is unclear what additional steps the Royal Thai Government may take under the State of Emergency.

U.S. citizens are reminded that even demonstrations intended to be peaceful can turn confrontational and escalate into violence with little or no warning. U.S. citizens are urged to avoid the areas that may be targeted for demonstrations and to exercise caution in their movements around Bangkok.

The Department strongly encourages U.S. citizens in Thailand to register with the Consular Section of the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok or through the State Department's travel registration website. For information on general crime and security issues, U.S. citizens may also consult the Department of State's Country Specific Information for Thailand and the Worldwide Caution, located at the Department of State’s Bureau of Consular Affairs website. U.S. citizens may also obtain up-to-date information on security conditions by calling 1-888-407-4747 from the United States and Canada, or 202-501-4444 from overseas.

The American Citizen Services section of the U.S. Embassy Bangkok is located at 95 Wireless Road, Bangkok 10330, Thailand. The American Citizen Services Unit of the U.S. Embassy can be reached by calling 66-2-205-4049 and by e-mail at [email protected]. The emergency after-hours telephone number is 66-2-205-4000.

The U.S. Consulate General in Chiang Mai is located at 387 Wichayanond Road in Chiang Mai. The American Citizen Services Unit of the Consulate General can be reached by calling 66-53-107-777 and by e-mail at [email protected]. The after-hours emergency telephone number is 66-81-881-1878.

As a reminder, U.S. citizens are urged to exercise caution and good judgment while travelling in Bangkok and should be aware of the possibility of disturbances elsewhere. Americans are also encouraged to:

defer non-essential travel to Bangkok, but must also determine for themselves what is essential and what is not;

be prepared for the possibility of more violence. Should U.S. citizens suspect violence in their vicinity, they should stay indoors and, if they hear explosions nearby, take care to avoid windows.;

as a precaution, U.S. citizens residing in Bangkok should have enough food, water, candles and flashlights in their homes to last at least three days;

register with the U.S. Embassy website and receive the latest Warden Messages;

refer to the Department of State’s travel website, which includes information on the Department of State’s role in a crisis abroad and on crisis preparedness;

and monitor local media for the latest information.

That's a pretty detailed run down of events from the US State Department. It contained some very serious warnings. I'm a little surprised, but then again they hit the nail on the head. The crisis in Thailand is potentially quite dangerous. I hope no innocents are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

More blood on the Red's hands.

I was there you muppet - the solider was shot by one of his own side - the Reds were unarmed and not even aggressive - they stopped ourt bus to check out for troops/police but did so politely

What seems to be forgotten here is that they are asking for an election - seems to me that in most countries the disenfrancised resort to far more violent means than we have seen from the Reds and for asking for an election they are being branded as terrororists ....

Hmm. Perhaps from your vantage you didn't see everything. Video clearly shows red shirt protesters (without red shirts) attacking the government roadblock. The video also shows one of the protesters carrying a pistol.

Yes, probably the PM and the government is missng the "big picture". So apprently are the Red Shirts. In fact, as normal in Thai politics, what we really have here is a number of Thai politicians, each with their own group of followers (can I say "lackeys") who are mainly interested in their own self promotion and what advantages they can obtain for themselves and their own group. Nothing unusual about that in Thai politics (or most politics anywhere in the world).

But one thing that is in "the big picture" although few are realising it yet, is that the power of Issan and it's farmers/poor people has grown enormously in the last few weeks. Even those Thai politicians who are not on the side of the Reds...or their politics..are now starting to realise that the Issan people are more powerful than they had realised before. That will make a signifigant difference in the future to Thai politics...no matter who wins the latest confrontation. The genie is out of the bottle now, and there will have to be changes made to adjust to the new realities. Those changes may be bad or good, but the future will not be the "same old same old" any longer. Yes, Thailand will have to change...the old sanook-sanook won't work any longer.

Whether that will be bad or good in the long run...we'll just have to wait and see.

As the old Chinese saying goes,"May you be cursed to live in interesting times".

Agree, even Sondhi has noticed the change. Only the lackeys of Abhisit continue their rhetorics...(until Abhisit tell them to change...)

Tut tut. For all your talk of compromise and justice and wanting to reduce tension your true colors are showing.

Many people believe that legal governments should not dissolve themselves over terrorist threats. So anyone who holds that belief is a 'lackey of Ahbisit'?

It already was tested. One party was disqualified for being filmed committing electoral fraud. So sorry. There are consequences when the executives of a party cheat during elections. There are 20 months left in the term of this government. A violent minority is holding the capitol hostage. This is not the time for elections.

Negotiations are the way forward. If those fail then the illegal occupation of Bangkok by the red shirts must be ended by security forces in the least violent way possible.

Correct !

" The Democrat Party, Thailand's oldest political party, was accused of receiving more than 258 million baht in illegal donations "

And if they are found guilty they should be dissolved. But they have not been found guilty and they, like the PPP before them, have every right to carry on in government until the case has run through the constitutional court. That result won't be available for at least another year.

I don't see much logic in your argument, blaming the reds that the bullet hit one soldier.

Actually if you would listen to the reds you would know that if you shoot at human beings it kills them. That is not just a red propaganda lie but the truth.

It is also one of their main complains and demands: Stop the killing.

If the government gives the order to shoot at people they are indeed responsible if someone dies and not the victim. Killing people is a crime, it is called murder.

Really? War is murder? If a madman rapes my wife and attempts to kill me and I shoot him dead it is murder? When a policeman shoots a criminal in the commission of a violent act it is murder? Sorry, but I think you are incorrect.

Soldiers are there to protect the public. Red shirts are menacing the public. It is the duty of the security forces to use whatever force is necessary to protect the public. Moreover, the armed red shirts have already killed security forces (murdered if you prefer) and possibly some unarmed civilians. The red shirts deliberately sent the caravan out. They then proceeded to attack the government road block. Therefore the red shirt leaders are entirely to blame for any accidental deaths arising from their illegal actions.

What was the road block good for? Did it brought back peace, the thai people together and solved the crisis?

The red shirts don't want rape your wife, who told you that horror story?

They rally against the current govenment, the influence of the military in politics and demand a new election.

The reds shirts murdered security forces? Are you sure? Got any source for that claim?

What? You said that killing is murder. I was providing examples where that is not the case.

Red shirts did murder security forces (red shirts includes black shirts and their supporters with military backgrounds). Have you not watched any of the video? Have you not read any newspaper articles? There is no question of this.

I disagree completely. The only way to stop the deaths is if the red shirts leave soon. That is the bottom line.

Now there are many ways this could happen, but I immediate dissolution and elections is just as bad as a dispersal of protesters would be for the long-term health of the country.

IMO honest negotiation and real compromise is the only mechanism that can achieve this. The Democrats have 19-20 months left on their term of government. The UDD wants immediate dissolution. They should start from there and come to a fair and honest agreement. This agreement also needs to take into consideration that the election laws are flawed. This is one of the primary reasons for the present situation. In order to ensure that the next election is legitimate the constitution must be changed first.

Well a good portion of 22 million people living in Isaan might disagree with you

Dispersal wont acheive anything it will just send them underground.

Well a good portion of the 44 million people not living in Isaan might disagree with you

Immediate elections won't achieve anything as it gives the green light for further violent demonstrations by groups who feels that the electoral process has been subverted against their interests.

Put it the test then

It already was tested. One party was disqualified for being filmed committing electoral fraud. So sorry. There are consequences when the executives of a party cheat during elections. There are 20 months left in the term of this government. A violent minority is holding the capitol hostage. This is not the time for elections.

Negotiations are the way forward. If those fail then the illegal occupation of Bangkok by the red shirts must be ended by security forces in the least violent way possible.

But there is also a good chance people will respect the leader THEY voted for directly themselves and not via some

shady deal behind closed doors deals between fellow MP 's.

Anyway surely trying this out is far better than people killing each other ?

The people don't vote for the PM. In the last election almost exactly the same number of people voted for the PPP as did for the Democrats. It was an even split.

I disagree completely. The only way to stop the deaths is if the red shirts leave soon. That is the bottom line.

Now there are many ways this could happen, but I immediate dissolution and elections is just as bad as a dispersal of protesters would be for the long-term health of the country.

IMO honest negotiation and real compromise is the only mechanism that can achieve this. The Democrats have 19-20 months left on their term of government. The UDD wants immediate dissolution. They should start from there and come to a fair and honest agreement. This agreement also needs to take into consideration that the election laws are flawed. This is one of the primary reasons for the present situation. In order to ensure that the next election is legitimate the constitution must be changed first.

Well a good portion of 22 million people living in Isaan might disagree with you

Dispersal wont acheive anything it will just send them underground.

Well a good portion of the 44 million people not living in Isaan might disagree with you

Immediate elections won't achieve anything as it gives the green light for further violent demonstrations by groups who feels that the electoral process has been subverted against their interests.

Is the Civil War a better solution? This is were Abhisit and Suthep are driving us....We are in an Emergency situation for avoiding the worse. I expect that at a Higher level than Abhisit there are some brain storming and there will be some contacts between all parties and they will arrive to a common ground. Situation is evolving and what has been said several days ago can be revised. Anand is a clever man (And a Stateman... at the difference of your idol)

Actually it is where the red shirt leaders are driving us. They are protesting violently and illegally. They have declared war. The government has a duty to protect the general public.

Perhaps from the results of the last elections? Perhaps from their inability to field more than 100,000 demonstrators on their best day?

Oh that is history

After 26 people have died.......i predict even the little old Thai lady in a remote village outside Buriram

is going to be just a little more politically aware this time around.....just a little..........

Anyway give them the chance - only way to stop deaths and get this country back on the road

I disagree completely. The only way to stop the deaths is if the red shirts leave soon. That is the bottom line.

Now there are many ways this could happen, but immediate dissolution followed by elections is just as bad as a dispersal of protesters would be for the long-term health of the country.

IMO honest negotiation and real compromise is the only mechanism that can achieve this. The Democrats have 19-20 months left on their term of government. The UDD wants immediate dissolution. They should start from there and come to a fair and honest agreement. This agreement also needs to take into consideration that the election laws are flawed. This is one of the primary reasons for the present situation. In order to ensure that the next election is legitimate the constitution must be changed first.

I don't believe that calling elections because a minority group demand it is the way to move Thailand forward.

I generally believe what Abhisit says as I haven't seen any situations where he has clearly lied. He doesn't have a history of corrupt activities.

I don't believe a thing that the red leaders say, since they are continuously telling lies and going back on anything that they have said. The efforts of the PPP and PTP to try and whitewash Thaksin's crimes show that they are only interested in one thing.

I am not saying Abhisit is perfect, I am sure he is far from it, but he is leagues ahead of the alternatives.

How can you say the reds are a minority group before holding the election ?

Perhaps from the results of the last elections? Perhaps from their inability to field more than 100,000 demonstrators on their best day?

If the current government thought it would win, it would of course quickly call for an election to silence the reds.

The fact that it is not calling for an election soon, means it believes it would not do well in the election.

Simple facts.

That is not a fact. That is your assumption.

I don't see much logic in your argument, blaming the reds that the bullet hit one soldier.

Actually if you would listen to the reds you would know that if you shoot at human beings it kills them. That is not just a red propaganda lie but the truth.

It is also one of their main complains and demands: Stop the killing.

If the government gives the order to shoot at people they are indeed responsible if someone dies and not the victim. Killing people is a crime, it is called murder.

Really? War is murder? If a madman rapes my wife and attempts to kill me and I shoot him dead it is murder? When a policeman shoots a criminal in the commission of a violent act it is murder? Sorry, but I think you are incorrect.

Soldiers are there to protect the public. Red shirts are menacing the public. It is the duty of the security forces to use whatever force is necessary to protect the public. Moreover, the armed red shirts have already killed security forces (murdered if you prefer) and possibly some unarmed civilians. The red shirts deliberately sent the caravan out. They then proceeded to attack the government road block. Therefore the red shirt leaders are entirely to blame for any accidental deaths arising from their illegal actions.

I don't believe that calling elections because a minority group demand it is the way to move Thailand forward.

I generally believe what Abhisit says as I haven't seen any situations where he has clearly lied. He doesn't have a history of corrupt activities.

I don't believe a thing that the red leaders say, since they are continuously telling lies and going back on anything that they have said. The efforts of the PPP and PTP to try and whitewash Thaksin's crimes show that they are only interested in one thing.

I am not saying Abhisit is perfect, I am sure he is far from it, but he is leagues ahead of the alternatives.

How can you say the reds are a minority group before holding the election ?

Perhaps from the results of the last elections? Perhaps from their inability to field more than 100,000 demonstrators on their best day?