way2muchcoffee

Was watching Thai tv 3. Shwoing reds throwing rocks and sticks at the police and them doing nothing. They should just go in and end it

in lees than an hour Annapour's interview with Abhisit on CNN

Lets see if he chokes on the questions again

wont be tough like Hardtalk though it is CNN

there was satellite time delay that made him look hesitant but he did not choke even under the rude and brusque questioning by Zeinab Badawai, who is obviously still pissed off that he made her look like an amatuer the last time they met across the Hardtalk table

she equates tough with rude and poses questions in such an arrogant way that would be insulting to any normal person

its clear she is weak in this environment and tries so hard to be unnaturally tough, it becomes an arduous journey for the interviewee and the audience

i have seen her interview other major figures and she comes over as demanding and at times downright rude

Stephen Sackur is much more effective, he asks probing questions without being bombastic and gets to the answers from the interviewee without having to resort to being disrespectful

Agree completely. All I could think of was "what a bi^ch". I guess this is what our home countries have devolved to. FoxNews, Rush Limbaugh, Hard Talk. Whatever happened to shows like 60 Minutes? It is still on these days but is a mere shadow of its former self. Deep investigative journalism. Probing questions. Incisive analysis. There is no need to be blatantly rude.

I understand that the moderators need to be cautious during this time of unrest and sympathize with the difficulties they face doing a thankless job. Since we're no longer permitted to post and discuss news clippings in the General Forum, I thought I'd bring a story to your attention here. Abhisit told the BBC on Tuesday why he won't call for a new election.

Thailand crisis: Red-shirt protesters and troops clash

On Tuesday Mr Abhisit told the BBC that while he wanted a political solution to the crisis, immediate elections were not the answer.

"There is a clear threat that if we hold elections too soon, with the mood running as high in terms of divisions and in terms of tension, elections would turn violent and they would solve nothing and we could be back into this vicious cycle of demonstrations." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8648109.stm

This is one the biggest red herrings in the overall argument for not holding an election in 90 days.

What evidence is there that the yellow shirts have any decent numbers in the support base beyond Bangkok ? I simply don’t believe they have such big numbers! All the yellows and Abhisit do is come with every reason under the sun why there cannot be an election while people are being killed.

But it is reasonable to assume that a large proportion of the 22 million in Isaan are red supporters ? Sure the PAD might put up a fight after they lose ( which they will ) but I am sure they can be contained !

You are wrong. In the 2007 elections the Democrats received a higher percentage of the individual voters than did the PPP.

I would have engaged Phua Thai (possibly but not necessarily including the Red leadership) and come to an agreement on elections. Abhisit has already suggested 9 months, the Reds want 1 month. Enough of this BS already and negotiate something that saves some face all around and gets to elections in half a year or so. Note that not just a timeline needs to be on the table, but also the conditions of the election, or even constitution amendments prior to the election. At the same time, any violent elements in the Red protests need to be brought to justice.

(Sadly even this statement above some people will see as Red.. that's just sad. There is a clear path forward but Abhisit is unwilling (though more likely: unable) to take it. )

Incorrect. The red shirts have said that 3 months for new elections would be acceptable to them and they would disperse immediately if Abhisit agreed. He declined.

They said dissolution in 30 days.

I understand that the moderators need to be cautious during this time of unrest and sympathize with the difficulties they face doing a thankless job. Since we're no longer permitted to post and discuss news clippings in the General Forum, I thought I'd bring a story to your attention here. Abhisit told the BBC on Tuesday why he won't call for a new election.

Thailand crisis: Red-shirt protesters and troops clash

On Tuesday Mr Abhisit told the BBC that while he wanted a political solution to the crisis, immediate elections were not the answer.

"There is a clear threat that if we hold elections too soon, with the mood running as high in terms of divisions and in terms of tension, elections would turn violent and they would solve nothing and we could be back into this vicious cycle of demonstrations."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8648109.stm

He's probably right about that. So what's taking him so long to (re)start this political solution?? Never mind which side (or no side) you support, Abhisit is failing miserably as a leader. (or even as the establishment's spokesperson).

They want a Parliament that fairly reflects their majority interests. The Red Shirts are protesting because the rural and urban poor--most Thai citizens--have little influence over how the nation is governed. The authoritarian Yellow Shirts would take to the streets because they don't want to give up the disproportionate power they wield. Anti-democratic forces are going to try to disrupt free elections because they know they'll lose.

No. They want a government made up of their minority interests. More people voted Democrat than PPP in the last election. Add in the coalition parties and you have approximately 61% of the voters represented by the current coalition.

I understand that the moderators need to be cautious during this time of unrest and sympathize with the difficulties they face doing a thankless job. Since we're no longer permitted to post and discuss news clippings in the General Forum, I thought I'd bring a story to your attention here. Abhisit told the BBC on Tuesday why he won't call for a new election.

Thailand crisis: Red-shirt protesters and troops clash

On Tuesday Mr Abhisit told the BBC that while he wanted a political solution to the crisis, immediate elections were not the answer.

"There is a clear threat that if we hold elections too soon, with the mood running as high in terms of divisions and in terms of tension, elections would turn violent and they would solve nothing and we could be back into this vicious cycle of demonstrations."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8648109.stm

He's probably right about that. So what's taking him so long to (re)start this political solution?? Never mind which side (or no side) you support, Abhisit is failing miserably as a leader. (or even as the establishment's spokesperson).

Tell us Winnie -------- how could YOU do better? Abhisit has been patient and tolerant and maintained some semblance of normalcy. The reds escalate in the hopes of creating enough blood on the streets to force a change of governent. The reds have failed so far and Abhisit has maintained his cool .... I hope that they continue to play it as cool as they have.

I would have engaged Phua Thai (possibly but not necessarily including the Red leadership) and come to an agreement on elections. Abhisit has already suggested 9 months, the Reds want 1 month. Enough of this BS already and negotiate something that saves some face all around and gets to elections in half a year or so. Note that not just a timeline needs to be on the table, but also the conditions of the election, or even constitution amendments prior to the election. At the same time, any violent elements in the Red protests need to be brought to justice.

(Sadly even this statement above some people will see as Red.. that's just sad. There is a clear path forward but Abhisit is unwilling (though more likely: unable) to take it. )

There were reports of secret talks between government and red shirt leaders right after the Sala Daeng grenades. This was when the red shirts were changing to a 30 day offer and bringing in envoys from the embassies. Evidently it was the amnesty issue that caused the government to back out of those talks. I don't recall where I read that information. New Mandala, BPund, tweets, newspaper? Somewhere. Because I don't recall precisely please feel free to take it with a grain of salt.

deleted

Laws? The reds don't need no stinkin' laws...

The same can be said of those that take power by military force.

The military took power by military force. Then there were elections. The rules and consequences for violation of those rules were clear. The party that came to power from those elections blatantly broke the rules. Their fault. Nobody made them do it. And they were even filmed doing it. So they were dissolved. So sorry. Try to follow election rules next time.

.

Correction: A rigged election was held where the major opposition political party was outlawed and its members prevented from running for political office for 5 years. So yes after the current government disemboweled the opposition political party they held elections only they could win. As has been said before on this board. The current government may be legal but it lacks legitimacy.

The Democrats didn't disembowel anything. The TRT and PPP committed suicide through massive corruption, vote buying, and electoral fraud.

Are you a judge? Will you be able to offer immunity to my friends if they are to step forward?

Who gave you the rights to comment that we need to backup our allegation with proof on a forum? Are you being silly? Whom with sane mind and a career to take care off dare to come forward and proof these allegation. This is why I ask if you are Thai.

It is a fact that only Bangkok Bank is the only bank appointed to handle the 2000 baht. It is a fact that their family members is appointed as minister. It is also a fact some big guy is the Chairman of Bangkok Bank.

What has PM has done? He has talked for many weeks now. Nothing has changed.

Do you need me to produce a recording where Democrats is asking military to buy submarines where our water is not deep enough? Do you know how much is a submarine and the kick back? You are so silly.

Media is being censored. Do we need to talk more about this area? The foreign press who are based here are frequently reminded about Les Majestic law. I am talking about ANN. Asia News Network which comprises of a few major press in the region.

We have 30 mins of Royal Family PR in news everyday if you do watch one. Anything not aligned with current government is censored. Do you think these reporter dare to come out and speak against their employer (press)? They will lose their job.

Unless you are new in business, how many people conduct corruption business via email or letter. It is all verbal in massage place and private places. Surely, people who are in the ministry knows about it. Unless you can provide them immunity or at least feel comfortable with our Thai judistry system. No one is willing to risk their family to speak out as witness.

FYI, Russian offer THB10 million as commission for every unit of Fighter Jet sold. I would suggest you to read the budget how much is allocated to new weapon purchase. It is the easiest way to take kick back as the price is not available publicly.

Unless you are living in an ideal world, many under table deals and corporate corruption is extremely difficult to proof. We cannot produce the proof but it does not it is not there.

Some company does keep a secret record for accountability. Some pays out huge commission to cover it. Some expenses it out with Marketing Agency. If you are part of these organisation as a small potato struggling to make a living, I am not sure you would be speaking this way.

There are a lot of law and regulation in Thailand. It is widely perceived as recommendation until one day it is use as a weapon against you. Haven't we seen enough?

Try harder to discredit me. Naive.

I don't have to discredit you. You are doing this to yourself very nicely with your aggressive attitude and by making claims that you cannot substantiate. I apologize if I have offended you. I am merely a poster here. When serious allegations are being made the burden of proof rests with the person making the claims. This proof could come from newspaper articles, reports, video, or academic papers. Thus far you have failed to provide any backup to your claims whatsoever.

Newin

Many people have not expressed surprise that the "acquitted of the rubber tree scandal" Newin led MP's to join the un-holy coalition.

Scratch yours if you scratch mine stuff..........

Ahh yes.

Newin - Thaksin's protege and former right hand man for several years.

Thaksin - Chief Executive Officer and symbolic leader of the red shirt movement.

Something from Red Shirts Today thread

Reds dismiss claim they plan to harm monarchy

Red shirt leaders denied on Tuesday their involvement in a campaign designed to overthrow the monarchy and threatened to sue the government for defamation.

Redshirt leader Natthawut Saikua said none of the reds were linked in any attempts to harm the monarchy.

He said portraying the reds as disloyal to the monarchy was just a figment of the government's and the military's imagination, adding that the reds had instructed their lawyers to initiate a defamation lawsuit.

He went on to question why the authorities were labelling the reds as terrorists when those involved in violence in the three southernmost provinces were classified as insurgents.

Redshirt leader weng Tojirakarn said the reds were struggling to achieve six goals, none of which was about overthrowing the monarchy as alleged.

Could this be the governments last card?

I see they provide ZERO evidence to back it up!

Hmmm maybe, but it seemed to be enough for Newin to put his cards on the table.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/...y-30128124.html

I wouldn't put much stock in the actions of Newin. He's a bit of an opportunist.

On the other hand there is likely something to all this, to some extent or other. There have been things in The Economist, New Mandala, Bankok Pundit, Nation Blog, The Nation, and The Bangkok Post along similar lines. We obviously can't discuss much on this particular topic so I'll leave it there.

Bye bye Abhisit! :-) You have twelve more days in office. :-)

That's kind of cryptic. Where does the 12 days come from?

But what if the other 45% still want to be farmers because they love the rural lifestyle? What to do if they insist on staying on the farm?

this is a legend... Issaners want a nice life like everybody: farming is tough and they do it when they cannot do something else. If they have some good jobs opportunities nearby their village they will choose: like the French, Europeans, Americans have done already long time ago.

Sorry but I have some works to do I leave the forum on this post.

Good Night

It isn't a legend. My wife would love to be able to live where she grew up. I wouldn't mind it myself as I quite fancy the pace of rural life. But there is no work for me there. There is no work for her there.

Consider the case of the USA. There are no more farming communities in the USA. There is no work in small towns. Almost everyone leaves their small town to find work in the big city after they finish high school or university. Perhaps one child can stick around and take over dad's small business, or work in the auto body shop, or the local cafe or bar. But by and large if you want to make a decent living you cannot live in a small town, and you certainly can't be a farmer.

Go ask those Interior Ministry Officer, how much kick back has the government been asking for every baht they spent?

Why only Bangkok Bank being appointed to give away the 2000 baht? Is it surprising a family member of Bangkok Bank became a minister? Some Big Guy is in play.

The current government is only good in talking. Talk, talk and talk. They should run Toast Master professionally.

Have you been to the farm? Be appreciate to those who actually create products for exporting. They are the ones who makes CP dream possible as World's Kitchen. Are you being ignorant to the water crisis lately. Crops production is expected to drop due to water crisis. Mekong River level is at all time low.

The problem now is half of the Thai people is blinded by the one sided Media.

Why are they delaying in dissolving the house until after the budget is approved? Is it clear to you that they would like to spend tax payer money for their own benefits.

Yellow shirts supporter. Don't just believe all their beautiful words. They are no saint too.

FYI: Every currency in South East Asia has strengthen against US Dollars. Please do not praise people who closed the airport so easily.

Lots of accusations but decidedly short on facts. Do you have any proof to back up any of your allegations?

Are you Thai? Since when Thai back up with facts like our beloved PM and DPM..........They are terrorists....We have been told by xxxxx intelligence but must not revealed the source.

So that would be a no then.

Ok Jerry, You're the PM and this is the scenario. Family: mother, father, a grandparent an aunty, 2 kids, all sitting on 5 rai of paddy land in the middle of Isaan. One crop per year if the weather gods are smiling. What are you going to do for these people? Should that 5 rai have to support the 2 kids in the next generation?

Or even more realistic. Family: mother, father, aunty, 4 children are barely getting by on their 5 rai of land. These 4 children grow up, get married and now there are 16 children from four families for a total of 24 people all trying to live off that same 5 rai of land. What is to be done?

And what should they be doing for themselves?

Wow....I have already explained 4 or 5 times that Thailand need a "Town and Country Planning", that Thailand is exactly in the same situation than France 50 years ago and that French have succeeded to reduced their farming population from 50% of the population to 5%.

It must be a very large policy with infrastructure investments, delocalisation of some industries, modernisation of agriculture (subsidised until the Agriculture reaches International Standards), regrouping of small farmers in cooperative/ associations, banking support and siubsidising for equipment of thoose cooperatives....

A fund for bad weather (drought, flood, storms...) in order to garantee an income, progressively converted in a mandatory insurance.

Prices of major agricultural products sustained in order to garantee a minimum income, until the internatrional Standards are met. (Subsidising Agriculture like we have done in USA or in Europe)

A revision of the Thai Budget is required with a large part allocated to this policy. At the end it will cost less than the migration of the northern population in Bangkokian suburban belt with all the costs associated with the mushrooming of the Megapole.

I have also stated than some Thai Academics well aware of the French policy were very impressed.

I have also stated that this must be accompanied by a Decentralisation (Political and Administrative with elected governors and local parliament- similar to the States in USA or the French regions....

I have developped several times all this. Please look in my previous posts.

But what if the other 45% still want to be farmers because they love the rural lifestyle? What to do if they insist on staying on the farm?

Of course the majority of the red shirt demonstrators are decent people. Salt of the Earth in many ways. Thais from all walks of life tend to be kind, generous, and fun. The problem is they are demonstrating illegally, harboring terrorists, and holding the citizens of Bangkok hostage.

They just request their share of the wealth accumulated in Thailand than Bankokian Middle/Upper class has appropriate to itself. It is just a fair request for income redistribution. "Please do not less us on the side of the development road".

Terrorists???? more and more it seems that is is "OK Corral' between some army factions. Is Army now a bunch of terrorists or potential terrorists? I let the responsibility of this opinion to way2muchcoffeee

Do you not view firing on soldiers, throwing grenades, impaling security personnel with sharpened bamboo rods, threatening to blow up the BTS, blowing up the BTS, making death threats to government leaders, kidnapping, etc. etc. etc. as terrorists actions?

Pardon me for interrupting.

Of course if it were done from some group outside of Thailand to Thailand, it would be terrorism. if it were done by some fringe group inside of Thailand, it also would be terrorism.

But when the group doing the violence likely could win an election, if one were held, it becomes a fight for freedom, democracy, liberty, and human rights.

Which group has been harmed by government action since 2006?

The Reds

Just increase pay

Increase medical treatments

Give better working conditions

The red revolution will fade.

People who are poor in Thailand have every right to be angry here in Thailand don't you think? Again, would any of you work for 2000 baht a month in the fields?

If it is not slavery it is sure close to being slavery.

It is very similar to the share cropping seen in America in the south after the war between the states. You work all month for 2000 baht and have to pay the owner back almost all of the pay to live on his land.

They don't have to be farmers. Rice farming is seasonal, with work for only 4-5 months a year, and even then it isn't steady. Family farming is not a sustainable business model. Already they are being subsidized by the government, and they pay no taxes. The only way to make any money farming is to own very large plots and use modern equipment to farm. This is the state of farming in the modern world.

I certainly understand the anger of low wages though. Minimum wage is ridiculously low here. But at the same time living costs are very low as well. Thailand relies heavily on exports. This means they are competing against China, Myanmar, Cambodia, Viet Nam etc. Wages are even lower in those countries so if Thailand is to compete in the world market wages must be low here as well.

Certainly there is vast room for improvement in regards to infrastructure and other items along the lines that Jerrytheyoung has mentioned in numerous posts. This is where the effort should be made IMO.

Ok Jerry, You're the PM and this is the scenario. Family: mother, father, a grandparent an aunty, 2 kids, all sitting on 5 rai of paddy land in the middle of Isaan. One crop per year if the weather gods are smiling. What are you going to do for these people? Should that 5 rai have to support the 2 kids in the next generation?

Or even more realistic. Thirty years ago there is a typical family: mother, father, aunty, and 4 children. They are barely getting by on their 5 rai of land. These 4 children grow up, get married and now there are 16 children from four families for a total of 30 people, including grandma, granddad, and aunty all trying to live off that same 5 rai of land. What is to be done?

Of course the majority of the red shirt demonstrators are decent people. Salt of the Earth in many ways. Thais from all walks of life tend to be kind, generous, and fun. The problem is they are demonstrating illegally, harboring terrorists, and holding the citizens of Bangkok hostage.

They just request their share of the wealth accumulated in Thailand than Bankokian Middle/Upper class has appropriate to itself. It is just a fair request for income redistribution. "Please do not less us on the side of the pdevelopment road".

Terrorists???? more and more it seems that is is "OK Corral' between some army factions. Is Army now a bunch of terrorists or potential terrorists? I let the responsability of this opinion to way2muchcoffeee

Do you not view firing on soldiers, throwing grenades, impaling security personnel with sharpened bamboo rods, threatening to blow up the BTS, blowing up the BTS, throwing molotov cocktails, making death threats to government leaders, kidnapping, etc. etc. etc. as terrorists actions?

The military and police have a duty to uphold the law and protect the monarcy. That is their duty, whether individuals in those forces like it or not. It is a stretch to call them terrorists for firing after they had been violently attacked while doing their duty.

Go ask those Interior Ministry Officer, how much kick back has the government been asking for every baht they spent?

Why only Bangkok Bank being appointed to give away the 2000 baht? Is it surprising a family member of Bangkok Bank became a minister? Some Big Guy is in play.

The current government is only good in talking. Talk, talk and talk. They should run Toast Master professionally.

Have you been to the farm? Be appreciate to those who actually create products for exporting. They are the ones who makes CP dream possible as World's Kitchen. Are you being ignorant to the water crisis lately. Crops production is expected to drop due to water crisis. Mekong River level is at all time low.

The problem now is half of the Thai people is blinded by the one sided Media.

Why are they delaying in dissolving the house until after the budget is approved? Is it clear to you that they would like to spend tax payer money for their own benefits.

Yellow shirts supporter. Don't just believe all their beautiful words. They are no saint too.

FYI: Every currency in South East Asia has strengthen against US Dollars. Please do not praise people who closed the airport so easily.

Lots of accusations but decidedly short on facts. Do you have any proof to back up any of your allegations?

lPlease feel free to explain all of this to us since you seem to be "in the know", since most of us seem to see this as Sae Daeng's Ronin fighting for Thaksin and the violent red mob and not much really to do with 'factions' in the army.

I believe he is referring to the New Mandala article. An article in The Economist also spoke of army factions.

I see crowds of reds almost daily (outside Bankok) and have never been threatened or felt in any danger. Of course if you just hate flag waving

mulam music and the smell of fermented fish.....you would probably feel terrorized. Good job Nation....nothing like the unbiased truth in journalism.

I spent the weekend with my GF inside the red shirt camp across from the Dusit. We were given free food, water, lots of conversation and even a foot rub. Not for a second did I feel threatened or in danger, other than from the massive police force that was gathering across the street. That made us uneasy. The reds did not cross the road nor solicit fighting of any kind during my stay with them, even when the multi-colored shirts were chanting for them to come out and fight.

While it is none of my business as to why they are doing this, I find their methods acceptable. In events where violence happens, you're not going to make an omelet unless you crack a few eggs. It's going to happen when you have a massive uprising from the people. Personally I feel some other areas of the world (those who want change - US Tea baggers coming to mind) could learn a thing or two from them.

Is it going to get messy? You bet it is. Forced change usually is. It's their country, let them do with it as they wish. Think back to how your own country was forged and how many lives were lost in the process before finally shaping into what it is today. Thailand has always been unstable and truth is, it's going to be unstable for many years to come. Sooner or later they will get it right.

What I do find embarrassing for Thailand is the governments reaction. The police and army are like keystone cops, lucky to not shoot their own feet off. How entire armed units can be stopped and stripped of their weapons by guys with sticks is beyond me. I would like to think they allow it because they do not want to fire on their fellow Thais and not because they are just that poorly trained. It seems the only group to fear is the black masked Rangers ("terrorists") who can put a bullet in the center of your forehead from a mile away. When these guys step back into the shadows, it's going to get ugly again.

All we can do is hope for as little bloodshed as possible, as a solution doesn't seem to be anywhere in sight.

Tokay - my sentiments exactly. My wife and I were also at the Red-Shirt protest site last Friday and Saturday and felt completely safe. The people were friendly and kind.

They're decent and civil people.

Of course the majority of the red shirt demonstrators are decent people. Salt of the Earth in many ways. Thais from all walks of life tend to be kind, generous, and fun. The problem is they are demonstrating illegally, harboring terrorists, and holding the citizens of Bangkok hostage.

I would simply respond that what is proven in a court of law in Thailand has been and continues to be suspect to forces outside of justice and evidence. I wouldn't stake a government on a court decision anyway. That's simply not democratic. Making rulings based on a constitution sponsored by the military is even worse!

Actually, I believe the PPP were banned using laws under the 1997 constitution, so the junta constitution doesn't come into it.

You're thinking of the TRT ban whybother. The PPP were banned from provisions in the current constitution.

I would simply respond that what is proven in a court of law in Thailand has been and continues to be suspect to forces outside of justice and evidence. I wouldn't stake a government on a court decision anyway. That's simply not democratic. Making rulings based on a constitution sponsored by the military is even worse!

Then change the constitution. To argue about a ruling made as per the constitution is ludicrous. The judges have no choice but to make rulings based on the law of the land. At present the constitution is the law of the land.

A few months ago, the Democrats, coalition partners, and the PTP were nearly done with a joint rewrite of the constitution. Suddenly Thaksin phoned in, expressed his discontent, and the PTP backed out.

....

However, the reds have one spindly leg to stand on. They don't have the government they elected. The constitution was put together by a military junta (hello Burma!), and the courts were selective in the parties and MPs they eliminated (or the Dems would have been gone with as much speed... not to mention Mr. Newin). Everything else is paranoia and hearsay. Who shot who first? Why? It's kind of immaterial. Everybody has been bad one way or another... (it's bad for citizens to shoot the army, it's bad for the army to shoot citizens... and let's face it, everybody brought guns) but the current government has never won an election. IF everybody hates the reds... the Dems should have no problem winning an election. Let it happen, tell everybody to put their damned colors away, and we can get back to corruption as usual. At least, Thailand deserves a government that isn't propped up and maintained by the military. By the way, people... democracy IS mob rule of a fashion... or have you forgotten?

I think that spindly leg isn't really there.

The reds DO have the MPs they elected. Unfortunately, the MPs they elected weren't the required majority, so now they don't have the government they wanted.

Umm... did you miss the part about selectively disqualifying parties and MPs? That was there for a reason. Do you think those MPs were corrupt? I do. Do you think the Dems weren't? I don't. If the rule of law had been applied evenly, there wouldn't be enough MPs left to form a government for anyone (after all, the brilliant consitution (keeping in mind this is Thailand) makes sure that ONE infraction disqualifies an entire party). In my book, that's not a democratic process. Governments should be chosen by the people, not the military or the courts they appoint.

What you believe is of no consequence. What can be proven in a court of law is. The PPP party leadership were caught on film engaging in electoral fraud. The Democrat party leadership were not. Those are the facts. Nevertheless the Democrat Party may yet be dissolved over campaign finance irregularities. We shall see if that is proven in a court of law.

You spend some time in a village ... you drink weekly on Saturdays ... the rest of your time is in France?

While I do find your story plausible, it is strictly anecdotal about your in-laws and only when you are there with them. The fact that there are many cases of methyl-alcohol poisonings annually and that the statistics of alcohol sales in Thailand is amongst the highest per-capita in the world certainly tells another story.

Lao Khao is CHEAP and kept that way for a reason ...... the reason is the marketplace

For your information, I have spent less than a week in France since 2002. And I have checked with my wife: in the village where we are (around 1000 houses) only drinking the Lao Khao for parties (Songkran, marriage....) The week end, with my in Laws I drink a couple of beers...and around us similar. Thailand is certainly less alcoholic than UK which has heavy drinking records.

In the area where we are alcohol is not in the diet. Maybe your area is different.

Evidently your area is not representative of Thailand then Jerry. It follows that your observations and the ideas arising from those observations are necessarily suspect.

Or maybe it is your area which is not representative.

First we have to take out from statistics Pattaya, Cowboy Stret, NanaThai, Patpong, udon Thani... because mainly Farangs are the heavy drunkers, and I will add mainly UK and Northern European ...this is to add to their National statistics and deducted from Thailand one.

It certainly is possible. I live in BKK but haven't been to Nana or Cowboy for years. I do see people drinking next to the motorcycle taxi stand every morning on my way to work.

Mostly my impression of the high level of drinking amongst rural Thais comes from my experiences in the wife's village in Surin. They have a saying there: Kohn Surin mai kin lao mun ma Surin. Translated this means roughly 'The only people from Surin who don't drink whiskey are the dogs of Surin'. Perhaps Surin is an anomaly, but they are some seriously heavy drinkers. Folks there make members of party-hard jock fraternity look like monks from Santi Asoke.

Better wake up and get your coffee before you open your mouth... You get things really wrong. You need to face the reality in Thailand that a violent crackdown at Rajprasong WILL produce a civil war.

And what makes you think that will ever happen? Why not have a think before ranting at people?

A few thousand paid thugs does not a sizeable proportion of the country make. Could be wrong, but I can't see the vast majority of Isaan folk making a fuss and taking up arms to have a go at the middle classes because a mob from their own neighbourhood was totalled. Most of them are just ordinary folk that want to get on with things, yet some people lump them all together as if they're one entity ready to pounce.

Should there be a crackdown, the worst that'll probably happen will be groups of thugs causing strife for cash. Take away the leaders and the cash flow and it'll wither away.

The Red shirts must be dreaming of an attempt to take them over as if the military did this the reds know that they would win. They would have worldwide support and would become martyrs in Thailand. Dont underestimate the strength of red shirt support. I see and hear it all the time in Bangkok. People have been made to realize what a controlled and unequal society this is and that knowledge wont go away.

1- It is clear that Army is divided.

2- The Red Shirt issue happens now but socially it has to happen at some times due to the too important differences in the Thai Society. It was unavoidable...If it is postponed, the social issue will bounce back. It has to be adressed correctly.

3- Yes there are some other interests superimposed to the Red Shirts ones and which are manipulating the situation independantly of the Red Shirts. it is interesting if you have the opportunity to read some foreign sources which are censored in Thailand (like Mandala), you will discover than the situation is more complex than Red/yellow shirt conflict and you will have confirmation that we are on the verge of a Civil war, you will understand also that the Thaksin episod is far behind us since the 10th of April. The situation is quite sensitive.

I have never had an MICT notice from a Mandala article. Perhaps you are mistaken?