way2muchcoffee

Sounds like freedom fighters to me

What exactly are they fighting to be free from?

* Censorship

* Military/Establishment influence in politics

* "Managed" democracy in general

* A constitution cooked up by the military/establishment

* Being arrested for writing the wrong things on Facebook.

- Free alcohol

- Free food

- 500 bt per day

- Sanook

- Feeling empowered by 'sticking it to the man'

- Fraternity or camaraderie

- Fearful to leave because of later reprisals by redshirt guards or thugs

What's with this persistent ID card myth? People lose them all the time. You go to the Amphur, get it replaced. (Get temporary slip first, etc.) Surely you don't think nobody in this country ever loses an ID card in the laundry or elsewhere?

It's not about ID card replacement. It's about thugs holding their ID cards. If they leave without their ID cards then those same thugs will know exactly where they live and that they left the protest area early. It's about intimidation and fear.

I'm not suggesting that this is the case for all the protesters. In fact I have no idea how many may fit into this category, if any at all. I don't doubt that there are some though.

You know what I mean. I already tried to make you happy by not using the word 'elite' which I know you dislike.

Err. Okay then. Thanks for that. Peace.

those that want to fight can't cry foul if they get hurt or killed, it's their choice.

It rather sounds like these people getting hurt or killed is your choice too.

Actually if protesters get hurt during a dispersal operation then it is entirely of their own choosing. They can leave right now, today. Every moment they remain in the occupied territory they are consciously deciding to violate the law. They have chosen to side with terrorists, insurrectionists, and criminals. They have shown exceedingly poor judgment. The only innocents at Ratchaprasong are the children.

Right, I'm cool with the above. Taking a stance against military coups definitely doesn't put her in the PAD & establishment camp though right.

UDD itself was formed in response to the military coup of 2006. It's the main thing they're campaigning for: to end military and 'amart' influence in politics, and establishment of a democratic system.

They were VERY happy with Aung San Suu Kyi's comments!

All right then. So what is the establishment? The redshirt leaders, TRT, PPP, PTP, Thaksin, police, et al, are the establishment. As are the Democrats, PAD leaders, CTP, NNP, business leaders, military, etc. etc. etc.

I disagree with your statement. The UDD do not have the goal to reduce power of the military and the amart. The UDD leaders are the amart. Amongst the military and police leaders there are many red supporters. You will find red supporters in all aspects of Thai society, including business moguls and even royalists. You are mistaken if you think otherwise.

How else can Thailand produce a government that is held by all Thais to be legitimate without an election? And how to carryout that election without an amnesty? Elections held with opposition leaders in jail do not generally enjoy a history of having their outcomes respected by all participants.

With a general amnesty for all, Thailand could move on to a successful election the results of which would be widely considered legitimate. Once that is accomplished, then both sides must either accept the outcome, or be exposed as undemocratic with the resultant diminution of legitimacy in the eyes of their supporters and the world.

To date, the Prime Minister and the Generals have managed this revolt well. Let's hope they continue to find the right solutions.

Then perhaps opposition leaders should avoid actively encouraging terrorism.

I can't be bothered to go look it up, but it was mentioned in some articles. She didn't express explicit support for UDD by name, but was talking about Thailand and the need for democracy and basic freedoms there. Sounded clear enough to me anyways.

No. She stated that military coups generally have a destabilizing effect on a country. If you can't be bothered to look it up perhaps you shouldn't make posts attributing statements to people. It is particularly egregious when those statements never occurred.

Aung San Suu Kyi, a person who has expressed sympathy for the Red cause recently.

You weaken your credibility with lies.

She specifically stated that her comments in no way represented support for either the redshirts or the government.

A great number of thais who do not agree with the reds political point of view do not appear to wish upon the reds the sort of violence that some very shameless foreign posters here repeatedely and callously call for.

And i do not shy from my view that to wish violence upon citizens of a country that allow us as foreigners to live here is especially wicked.

Such foreigners may be in for a rude awakening after the election and they trace their identity from their IP address

RED DEMOCRACY at work. Nothing about freedom of speech. Just payback.

not at all..................no different to USA's standards

Inciting HATE and VIOLENCE isn't FREE SPEECH

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

"Special exceptions "

if it involves speech beyond the First Amendment's protection like incitement to immediate violence or defamation.

So you must absolutely agree with government censorship of red radio and TV then.

I agree: absolutely rubbish article.

Thailand is modernising, which includes and benefits everyone. The government and those that are making lots of money from the economic success need to make sure everyone benefits. I think this is happening. The government helps the poor and the farmers in alot of ways. Maybe they can do more. However the route to doing more is through democratic means via the government, election process, debating and making laws in parliament, etc. You don't make these changes via violence, breaking the law and terrorism. Change is happening quickly in Thailand through the normal procedures; it does not need accelerating via demonstrations, breaking the law, violence, miss information via mass media, and turning Thais against Thais.

We all know this red shirt demonstration is being paid for by Taksin and has the sole purpose of getting Taksin back in the country and in power. He should have though about the consequences of his actions when he was in power. No one stays in power for ever. Alot of damage has been done to the country. I get fed up with the red shirt BS and propaganda. People have forgotten what morals are or the difference between right and wrong.

<deleted>!

It isn't happening nearly fast enough and that is precisely why we are seeing such deep divisions in Thai society. Thailand has a long long way to go to catch up when it comes to democracy and implementing it.

In all democracies especially fledgling ones we have seen that civil disobedience and yes even rioting has been neccessary and the catalyst for change. The haves will not share with the have nots unless they are forced to. Just telling them to go home and not to worry because Thailands perfect democratic institutions have been listening and will put everything right is ridiculous.

You do realize there was a world financial crisis last year, and it is ongoing. The sectors that employ the poor were hardest hit. This government worked hard to insulate Thailand from the crisis. The current Finance Minister won international awards for his performance in this task. The Education Minister from the Democrat government also won international awards for his work in improving education.

You say this government is not working fast enough? What are you talking about? The Democrats have done more to enact effective police to assist the poor in 16 months than Thaksin did in 60 months. Additionally Thaksin had the benefit of riding a world financial wave. Unfortunately much of that money during those flush times was squandered into the private bank accounts of himself, his family, and his cronies. Sorry to say it, but you are sadly misinformed somo.

Almost 100 soldiers admitted to hospital with gun shot wounds.

Kind of speaks for itself.

Pathetic propaganda at its best

Stop talking BS . Thanks

For your information they are reports by eye witnesses that rogue soldiers on the roofs started shooting at

red shirts and soldiers alike on the ground , killing many .

Soldiers on the ground returned fire on those rogue soldiers , and red security did the same .

Abhisit himself spoke about this in similar terms .

Of course yellow fanatics wont admitt it , so easy to put blame on reds

Yes. Especially due to all the video evidence showing them walking freely amongst the reds unmolested and unquestioned. They were not mingling with soldiers. They were mingling with redshirts. There is also video of people wearing redshirts holding rifles.

Then show me proof of red shirts shooting at army or police .

Until you do , dont talk to me anymore

Thanks

You've seen all the videos. They were fake reds shooting at the army, weren't they?

But you're right. There is no point talking to you anymore. It doesn't matter what you see, you will make some excuse for it. You will say that it is fake. You will say that you haven't personally met the person involved and personally been told about it ... and even then you will say that it isn't true, that it's a government conspiracy. You have been well and truly brainwashed by the red propaganda.

I rather suggest he is part of the red propaganda.

You can see it now. Suthep goes to the DSI and then to the CSB. He leaves after the interviews with the charges dropped or he receives bail. This is perfectly understandable. He had, and still has, a duty to disperse the protesters.

Later in the day or maybe the next day, a caravan of redshirts escort their leaders to the police station es. The redshirt leaders waltz into the police station and present themselves to police. The police file charges and some of the leaders are given bail. Perhaps Natthawud, Veera, and Weng. By rights the police should hold at least Arisman and Kwanchi without bail. So Veera heads out and whips waiting red crowd into a frenzy. Red reinforcements arrive. A new demonstration begins.

The police have two choices. They can continue to deny bail and the demonstration grows in size and hostility. The station might be overrun with the redshirt leaders spirited safely away by their followers. Alternately the police could decide they don't want to risk it and release everyone on bail. Either way large segments of the population will be outraged. The multicolors will be fuming, and the PAD will be incensed. What happens next is anyone's guess.

so suthep gave the orders for a security operation which failed badly

and about 20 civilians lost their life (lets not forget) and five army ppl..

shouldnt he be the one held responsible?

Held responsible for what? For not anticipating that his field commanding officers would be assassinated at the beginning of the operation? For not anticipating that his troops would be fired on with live weapons with thrown and launched grenades. This was supposed to be a simple crowd dispersal operation. As it turned out this was anything but simple.

DIS is a fully independent organization (ongan eesara) set up under the department of Justice. They are not the police. They are considered more independent that the court system.

Yes. The DSI is Thailand's rough equivalent to the FBI in the US.

Could we get back on-topic please?

The UDD asked for Suthep to surrender to the police, but he's surrendering to the DSI instead.

And why should he surrender to anyone? Because terrorists ask for it....Surely I'm going to wake up from this nightmare !

because terrorists normallly surrender to the police .

Suthep ordered the killing of civilians he is one of them

pornsasi, do you really believe this?

Do you honestly believe that 'Suthep is a terrorist', and that he 'ordered the killing' of civilians?

Given the speed with which both Suthep and Abhisit called the Red bluff and agreed to the demand that they go to the Police, I speculate that the tables may have been turned and that it is now they who have someone on the the 'inside' of the Red sanctum/rectum.

Nah. They were probably laughing so hard at the suggestion that they looked at each other, shrugged shoulders, and said "What the <removed>? Let's do it."

The redshirt leaders are using rhetoric that they usually reserve for their stages. Anyone with half a brain can't help but see that the redshirt leaders delusions are now bordering on insanity.

Agree with this.

I think that Abhisit has shown great qualities so far in the face of tremendous pressure. Ok, these qualities are maybe as a talker rather than a doer, hence some of the more right-wing protagonists on this board get a bit shirty, but not even his opponents should begrudge him some credit. However, he hinged his career on this roadmap and where are we now, x number of days on. It is literally going nowhere fast - lots of tacit agreements but some very real doubts too and rightly so - it is a woolly piece of political rhetoric at the very best.

Here today, I do not see anything statesmanlike in these comments on his TV show - it s the kind of thing that his minions normally say, but he stays above - naming names, loose terrorism charges, dragging in Thaksin again, sort of almost pleading to come on board within the 15 days. Might he be starting to feel that the roadmap might actually be going nowhere? It was his call and if it derails, he is bang on the ropes. His enemies on both sides and even within his party might well spot some chinks in his armour here. This is far from over.

Have you heard the rhetoric from redshirt stages? Even last night the speakers were belligerent and caustic. They have made it clear, despite what they say in media interviews, that they have no interest in reconciliation. The redshirts are stalling and delaying.

People are dying. Businesses are failing. Innocent citizens are being harmed daily by their takeover of the Bangkok city center. The redshirts insist on trying to bargain, but they are in no position to do so as they are illegally occupying central Bangkok. Indeed, they are reinforcing their position by bringing in more demonstrators.

None of the above in any way demonstrates an interest by redshirt leaders in reconciliation.

Perhaps Abhisit is responding to these actions from the redshirts.

Abhisit is giving the main red leaders a chance to get out, to put blame on the more radical reds. Let's hope it works.

Anybody who tries to impede the peace plan deserves the worst. The reds have made their point. The PM has been patient. It is time to end this thing and heal the nation.

I agree. Somehow I think this won't happen. Evidently the nation needs to suffer more. Something like the alcoholic who won't quit drinking until the consequences become so severe that he has no choice but to stop. Unfortunately as time passes and the crisis ends the alcoholic is very likely to relapse.

They were "puppets" alright, but at least their parties were democratically elected. Not "coup-installed" after the army general pushed the small coalition parties towards forming an alliance with the Democrats.

Oh, but they too were illegitimate because they would never have been in government if there hadn't been a coup. At least according to your arguments. In fact, every government from now on must be illegitimate. And actually all governments of Thailand have been illegitimate given that they all followed coups.

No, it starts with Adam and Eve.

Now now. No need to blame Adam. It was all Eve's fault! She ate that dam_n apple. Then again we could just as well blame God for putting the apple there in the first place just to tempt her....

It will never end.

I agree. I feel strongly that NO has not been taught in Lack of Sanctions (LOS). If it was then people might not like the outcome of ????? elections, but would accept NO. You did not win etc. Or NO it is against the law........or NO you do not qualify for that position/grade etc etc etc. GEEZE

You might be on to something. They do have 'not yes', which doesn't seem to be the same thing. No is just too harsh and confrontational. We see this inability to say or accept NO starting very young in the way children are raised. Also in schools we see this. Teachers are prevented from disciplining a misbehaving child, or handing out failing grades that the students clearly earned by their complete lack of effort. Now Thailand certainly isn't unique in this. It has been a disturbing trend across the world, and the consequences are becoming obvious.

So Jerry IS saying that he is in favor of their violent illegal protest continueing.

eeeek

That is exactly what Jerry is saying. Evidently Jerry believes that violent protest groups who murder, ruin the lives of the innocent, and commit terrorist acts have legitimacy and are perfectly correct to demand concessions from a legal government. Sorry Jerry. Sometimes your views, while unquestionably well-meaning, get my blood boiling.

It is obvious that the Red Shirts need more time now, and this is a direct consequence of the PAD/ yellow shirts and so on...opponents to Road map inside the Government side. And this is only based on a technical point of view.

As I have already stated in another thread:

"I am not a supporter of Abhisit, but I recognise that he has made a generous aperture, which is well perceived by most of Thais including Red shirts and that it is a good initiation to get out the mess. However, technically, from a former negotiator (who has experience of social disputes), this "roadmap' is still too vague, and can be easily dismantled by the opponants to the agreement. IMHO, due to this situation, the Red Shirts MUST go in the details in order that the Roadmap is not an empty shell and they must exert an higher pressure than the yellow shirts/ PAD in order to reach this goal.'

BS. They have committed terrorist acts. They are holding downtown BKK hostage. They have killed. They have maimed. They have caused untold loss of jobs, income, and hardship to people who do not deserve it. They need no more time. They have no legitimacy. They are in no position to make any demands. They have no right to delay. They need to leave. Abhisit should give them, oh 6 hours to get their affairs in order and start dispersing themselves, or else face the full consequences of the law and the military.

Jerry - you seem to think that they are a legitimate protest group. They lost all legitimacy when they attacked soldiers, police, and killed people. Let's not even mention the rhetoric from their stages or their actions against hospitals. They are criminals, terrorists, or insurgents. Pick your label. In all cases they have no legitimacy.

The reds holding the government and city of Bangkok hostage is a terrorist act, pure and simple.

Oh.. sorry, are we still doing this?

Doing what? An armed and violent group taking the city center hostage and making demands of government is what then?