way2muchcoffee

Today, he's supposedly off in Russia:

Former Thai premier Thaksin Shinawatra poses for a photograph in this picture taken in Moscow April 27, 2010 and obtained from his Facebook page

Reuters (52 minutes ago)

Now to address the conspiracy theorists: Shouldn't there be a visible shadow from Thaksin in the lower left corner for this picture?

I wonder if anyone has thought that planting season is coming up soon, and the Reds will probably lose half their strength in the coming days and weeks.

There is that. But even sooner schools are about to open. Many, many parents in BKK are fearful to send their kids to school under the present circumstances. There are many schools in the vicinity of the demonstrations. Many students take buses that will have to pass through there. Many students take the BTS. Then there is the doubling of rush hour traffic that occurs when school is in session. I can't help but feel that the government is under enormous pressure to clean this up before mid-May.

The CNN News website reported that the soldier was accidentally killed by fire from security forces......

Don't blame the redshirts for that.60% of the army support the reds.Policeforce 70%.Everybody know that or you must stick your head in the sand,like this government.

Absolutely the red shirt protesters are responsible. They were engaging in illegal actions. It is the government's duty to maintain control and order in public places. The responsibility for any injury to security forces must rest with the illegal protesters.

If you want delegate the responsibility than name nobody else but PM Abhisit here.

You can't maintain order in public places with killing the people.

Please connect the dots for me. I don't see the logic in your argument, so I must be missing something. This isn't a dig at you and I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.

The CNN News website reported that the soldier was accidentally killed by fire from security forces......

Don't blame the redshirts for that.60% of the army support the reds.Policeforce 70%.Everybody know that or you must stick your head in the sand,like this government.

Absolutely the red shirt protesters are responsible. They were engaging in illegal actions. It is the government's duty to maintain control and order in public places. The responsibility for any injury to security forces must rest with the illegal protesters.

There were people that blamed a foreigner's car accident death on the way to Phuket on PAD because of the Bangkok airport closure had led them to the decision to drive down there to fly out and there's certainly a much closer association to the soldier's death to UDD... so you're right.

Otherwise, the infamous "double standards" can be implored.

Do you honestly think that is a reasonable comparison? You might. It's okay if you do. I don't.

In one case there was a road accident in some rural area. In the other case security personnel were on a roadway to prevent highly illegal actions by violent demonstrators.

Very interesting. I was just reading the report from the ANFREL Group who were contracted to observe the 2007 elections. Evidently the present constitution has removed the need of a university degree to hold an MP position. I wasn't aware of this.

As the table below shows, many more parties and candidates contested the election in 2007 as

compared with 2005, despite the fact that fewer seats were available. This is particularly true

for constituency list seats. This is due to a number of factors, including the withdrawal of the

demand that candidates hold a Bachelor’s degree (over 30% of candidates did not hold one),

as well as the fact that the law required parties to field a full team of candidates in any given

constituency. In some cases, this lead to parties enlisting the candidacy of individuals who

were not viable candidates, simply to fulfill the requirements of the law.

http://www.anfrel.org/report/2007.asp

The quote is from page 13 of the pdf version of the report.

The poor fighting for a better life, thats what the Reds are. Fighting against a military coup paid for by Team Yellow, implemented by Yellow army officers and followed by total abuse of the media and justice system to drag the name of Thaksin through the mud and disgrace him with charges manufactured by the coup appointed government and its legacy.

The Elite need to address the double standards, and allow the people to have their vote again.

The last time there was a "free and fair" election was in 2005, when the Democrats refused to run as they knew they would lose and it appears they paid small parties also not to run in order to "void" the election.

The more recent election which PPP won was actually unfair to PPP, as it was held under basically martial law and everything was done that was possible by team Yellow and the interim coup appointed government to ensure PPP did not win too many seats.

<snip article>

When will you get some semblance of truth in your posts?

The PPP did NOT win the last election. They only got 40% of the vote.

The Democrats similarly receive 40% of the voters.

So the Thai System is not working as it conducts to a huge conflict. The current Government, even "legal", is the result of a politician mangling. We are are on the verge of a Civil war, similarly to Spain in 1933/1936: the Party ahead in the Elections loosing the Power following a mangled coalition.result: 300,000 deads. It is time to stop all this spinning driving to the uncontrollable. Thai election Rules have failed: they have to be rewritten.

A third party has to take over: the sooner the better, for cleaning the situation, rewriting the rules and proceed to fair elections

I don't disagree at least in principle. The country is in a deep and dangerous quagmire. Do you believe the red shirt leaders would accept a unity government lasting for 6 months to a year? PTP? Democrats? How about the smaller parties? PAD? Military? Higher institutions? There are so many players with vested interests here and a unity government under someone like Anand would only work if all parties agree.

The poor fighting for a better life, thats what the Reds are. Fighting against a military coup paid for by Team Yellow, implemented by Yellow army officers and followed by total abuse of the media and justice system to drag the name of Thaksin through the mud and disgrace him with charges manufactured by the coup appointed government and its legacy.

The Elite need to address the double standards, and allow the people to have their vote again.

The last time there was a "free and fair" election was in 2005, when the Democrats refused to run as they knew they would lose and it appears they paid small parties also not to run in order to "void" the election.

The more recent election which PPP won was actually unfair to PPP, as it was held under basically martial law and everything was done that was possible by team Yellow and the interim coup appointed government to ensure PPP did not win too many seats.

<snip article>

When will you get some semblance of truth in your posts?

The PPP did NOT win the last election. They only got 40% of the vote.

The Democrats similarly receive 40% of the voters.

The government does not want and has refused a UN Independent Investigation into April 10th, whilst the Red shirts want it.

Who is guilty ?

Team Yellow broke electoral law in 2005 by refusing to run in elections. They got away with it.

Team Yellow broke Thailand's laws in 2006 by holding a coup, they got away with it by throwing the 1997 Peoples Consitution in the bin to give them immunity.

Since those 2 events they have abused all authority in order to finally get their people into power so they can feed at the trough again.

And now they cling on to power and do not care how many must die while they cling to power.

Why is the Ahbisit afraid of a UN Independent Investigation......he must have a lot of things to hide...

Perhaps because there are acts of terrorism and/or insurgency involved. This is a matter of national security. Perhaps at some point after the demonstrations are over and a sense of peace and normalcy has returned to the country then an external investigative body could be used. Then again, this is Thailand, and no governing party would be likely to turn over an internal investigation to a foreign body.

I also like the idea of decentralised power to Regions (But not the current administrative division of Thailand, larger regions...something like 10 or 12 regions- Example Issan as a block). I have understood also that it was a key factor in the origin of the Southern unrest.

The decentralised (limited) power brings the democracy closer to People, eases their involvement in the surveillance of Politics and gives better results for the local infrastructure investment decisions.

Decentralization could help. It would require a lot more effort to combat corruption though. Also if there were large divisions they should be population based and not land based so that each region fairly represents a similar portion of the population.

BTW, don't ask for sources for information, it is a waste of time - the Government has suppressed all of the sources of truth they can and you all dam_n well know it!

Is this why Abhisit appeared on BBC and CNN yesterday?

Evidently this was a misquote. The quote above was not from whybother. This was from another poster. Unfortunately I can't locate the original. I was informed by PM of my mistake, but the time limit had passed before I could make the edits. Apologies to whybother.

The CNN News website reported that the soldier was accidentally killed by fire from security forces......

Don't blame the redshirts for that.60% of the army support the reds.Policeforce 70%.Everybody know that or you must stick your head in the sand,like this government.

Absolutely the red shirt protesters are responsible. They were engaging in illegal actions. It is the government's duty to maintain control and order in public places. The responsibility for any injury to security forces must rest with the illegal protesters.

Basically the government has 3 options

- Negociated solution. That means an election within 3-6 months at most.

- Disperse the protests by force.

- Sit it out.

I just wish they'd choose one and be over with.

The government seems to be trying all three.

1) Negotiations would be a top priority. This has been tried multiple times and has not reached a successful conclusion (obviously. Nevertheless the government and red shirt leaders should never close the door on discussion as that is the most healthy solution of all.

2) Sit it out. That's what the government has been doing, more or less. They have been trying to contain the situation. If negotiations cannot be achieved then this is the next best option, at least until such time as all sides are ready to talk.

3) The worst possible option. This will only inflame the situation and both the long and short-term consequences could be severe.

Abhisit is taking a big risk within a very short time frame. The Democrats stand a high chance of being dissolved, and the next elected government will inevitably be at least red-leaning, and could be looking for a pound of flesh over the 10 April deaths.

IF the Democrats get dissolved, only the executive get banned.

Elections will not *have* to be held. The PTP (ex PPP MPs) had the option of calling an election after the PPP were disbanded, but chose not to.

By-elections will be held for any banned MPs, but not banned party list MPs.

It is possible, that the current coalition will still have a majority after all this happens, leading to the same ex-democrat led coalition government.

Will the reds still protest after all of that happens?

Ofcourse they will, because they are fighting because *their* party is not in power. It has nothing to do with the fact that legal and legitimate processes were followed.

This Country needs to clean the situation. Fresh elections are absolutely required: no more manoeuvers, if not the next government (any side) will have no credibility, and it opens the gate to more turbulence.

Statemen (Churchill, de Gaulle for example) will have returned the decision to people in order to re-start with a blank page. It is an absolute requirement.

I agree that elections are the only way forward, but I don't believe that they should take place immediately for several reasons.

1) The protesters have used violence, threat, intimidation, murder, and terrorism to achieve their ends. No government should dissolve itself with this kind of pressure. It sets a very bad precedent.

2) The constitution and electoral law are fundamentally flawed (at least that's what most Thais seem to believe) and need to be amended before any elections can be held. If not then the next election will be just as 'illegitimate' as the last in many people's eyes.

3) It would be impossible at this juncture for elections to be free and fair. There is too much hatred and not all parties would be able to campaign in all areas. Moreover there is the very real possibility that many voters would be coerced into casting a vote that is against their conscience, either through vote buying, propaganda, or just plain bullying and intimidation. This would not be limited to the PTP, but all parties would be strongly tempted to engage in foul play to ensure their victory.

Agree with the general sentiment; good article.

If I write the same then I have a dozen wannabe Yellow yellers yelling at me! Fortunately for once it's coming from the Pravda, hence the silence...

That's because this is a discussion board. We are here to discuss (and all too often attack) events in Thailand that we feel are important. Therefore when you write something people will respond. I have already expressed my disagreement with this opinion piece, but I am glad that The Nation included it as I believe the media in this country has a responsibility to report differing opinions. This is not a responsibility that the media here generally live up to.

BTW, don't ask for sources for information, it is a waste of time - the Government has suppressed all of the sources of truth they can and you all dam_n well know it!

Is this why Abhisit appeared on BBC and CNN yesterday?

Rixalex and Clockwork. We all get annoyed with other folks from time to time. A series of flames usually follows for a while, totally derailing the discussion at hand. Please stick to the topic if you wouldn't mind. You can trade insults all day using the PM function and not risk ruining a pretty good thread.

Reds are fighting for the thing that so many stupid farangs who have written on this website take for granted in their home countries: democracy. For those who think it is purely about Thaksin's interests, you are so wrong (although, of course, he is the leader of the red shirts).

The real coward in all this is the Thai government, which was not elected by The People and is, therefore, not prepared to hold an election because they know they have absolutely no chance of winning. And why do they have absolutely no chance of winning? Because they know The People would not vote for them. And that, my friends, is why the red shirts are fighting: let The People decide who should run the country.

Very true.

Clearly though, some of the posters on this thread can't handle the truth.

Well that doesn't sit with the number of voters who voted Democrat versus PPP in the last election in which the Democrats edged the PPP in the percentage of voters. By all measures it is clear that the Democrats and the PPP share approximately equal support throughout the country. Now once the support from the coalition partners is factored in this government represents an overwhelming majority of the voters at 61%, compared to the mere 39% of the people who support PTP.

Evidently the red shirt leaders are incapable of realizing they represent only a minority voice as a percentage of the population, significant yes, but still a minority. Their inability to heed the fact that the vast majority of the population are not on their side shows just how un-democratic they really are.

I have to confess, I'm stunned by this article...a fair, sensible and balanced article coming from the Nation...what is the world coming to?

While I am not so sure the opinion piece is particularly fair or balanced it is encouraging to see it printed in The Nation (of all places). Kudos.

I can only hope that today's events may give some people pause to consider again the ramifications of prolonging this battle. Both sides need to step back, again. They need to talk. The real power brokers need to come to a peaceful, fair, and swift resolution to this standoff. This country is on the brink.

If you are going to call Abhisit exceptionally weak in relation to this martial law powers you need to compare him to other THAI PM's. How things work in other countries is irrelevant to that point.

You fail to realise that the rest of the world when it heard that Thailand was a democracy it believed it was a democracy in the same way that they perceive other democracies.

I.e

a. A head of state either a monarch or an elected president

b. If a monarch for head of state a PM who is elected

c. An army that answers to an elected government or president

The Thai situation vis a vis the army is a peculiarly Thai issue.

The rest of the world outside that the BBC speaks to cannot even name 2 other Thai PM's and have already forgotten Abhisit's name. The rest of the world is not comparing him to other Thai PM's since the level from which Thai PM's is coming is particularly low. All they know now is that he is not in control of his country and is not able to elucidate his point clearly on international TV.

Very good points.

deleted

I think you have got it wrong, he was facing a building (or turning slowly) when he was shot at close range...it couldn't have been the military as they were at least 200yards away...he fell towards the military..must have been a boomerang bullet?

I thought that rubber bullets were fired from M79 grenade launchers, you know, 40mm diameter and about 300mm long, they're bounced along the road so that they hit the protesters in the legs???

How do you know he was shot at close range? Why do you think the direction he fell indicates the direction he was shot from?

Hey you should start to learn easy things like being alive. You know, 40mm diameter? You know 300mm long? What the heck's wrong with your millimeters????

You've lost me I'm afraid, how about a plain answer? I'll make it easy—just answer the second question. Since a bullet passing through your head imparts relatively little kinetic energy, it's unlikely to effect the direction you fall.

Your go.

That may be true but the entire back of the guy's head was blown off. It takes one heck of a lot of change in moment to disintegrate the better part of a skull.

I think that using force by Abhisit is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

It may disperse the crowd but it will NOT kill off the movement, peopel will still bear grudges and hold grievances and the movement will go underground.

Underground movements tend to resort to violent tactics....we see this already in the southern provinces here in Thailand...and we have seen it before in Northern Ireland, the Basque country, Palestine etc

The only hope for a peaceful outcome is negotiation

Completely agree, unfortunately, the reds cannot/will not negotiate, it would seem that they are only capable of making demands!

FF

Don't be silly, Abhisit refused to talk last time when the reds softened their demands....

That's not true. The talks were going on behind the scenes. Neither you nor I nor anyone else here knows exactly what was the reason the talks were not successful.

No matter what spin anyone wants to put on this or who they try to blame, the Govt , the army, navy, air force, police, yellows, fish in the sea or whatever there is one inescapable undeniable fact.

If the reds had not made a conscious decision to go there and impede and intimidate people going about their normal business none of it would have happened, no one would be in hospital arrested or dead.

So there you have it the root of the trouble was the decision by the reds to be there everything that came after was a consequence of that decision.

Did you notice that the brave commander of the reds shot through to hide behind the granny shield at the first sign of trouble. Indeed a leader worth following.

The problem is: most people don't want to be inconvenienced and that is what you are saying. "I understand you plight but please don't inconvenience me." Yes, people wanting a better life make problems for other people but inevitably improve the quality of life for all.

Inconvenience? This is about Grenades and AK47s, molotov cocktails, and shutting down the city center for weeks. This is about death threats to government leaders, murder, and terrorism. This is about actions that could propel this country into a civil war.

Is this what you consider an inconvenience?

I consider an inconvenience having to sit in traffic for an extra 30 minutes because some yahoo was speeding up ahead and caused an accident, or when it starts raining just as I'm stepping out of a taxi without an umbrella.

No matter what spin anyone wants to put on this or who they try to blame, the Govt , the army, navy, air force, police, yellows, fish in the sea or whatever there is one inescapable undeniable fact.

If the reds had not made a conscious decision to go there and impede and intimidate people going about their normal business none of it would have happened, no one would be in hospital arrested or dead.

So there you have it the root of the trouble was the decision by the reds to be there everything that came after was a consequence of that decision.

Did you notice that the brave commander of the reds shot through to hide behind the granny shield at the first sign of trouble. Indeed a leader worth following.

The problem is: most people don't want to be inconvenienced and that is what you are saying. "I understand you plight but please don't inconvenience me." Yes, people wanting a better life make problems for other people but inevitably improve the quality of life for all.

Inconvenience? This is about Grenades and AK47s, molotov cocktails, and shutting down the city center for weeks. Is this what you consider an inconvenience? I consider an inconvenience having to sit in traffic for an extra 30 minutes because some yahoo was speeding up ahead and caused an accident.