way2muchcoffee

Nah no dems nor any other parties but the PPP MPs were ever caught buying votes

You used to post truths and sought knowledge and constructive debate. What happened to you? Now your posts have descended to outright lies.

I guess the red-infection has spread to you as you are now following their tactics. It is sad when a person must resort to lies and half-truths to make their point or justify their position.

Then the law need to be changed ... or applied equally to other parties as well .

Personally I believe it needs to be changed , a personal opinion of course

Well there then. I haven't formed a strong opinion about whether or not the law should be changed, but I can certainly understand the arguments for changing it.

And this is exactly what the Abhisit government tried to do for eight months, at the request of the PTP and coalition parties for the purposes of reconciliation, only to have the PTP back out at the last minute because Thaksin objected.

It is also why the Democrats would like to see the constitution amended before the next round of elections so that no side can come out later and scream bloody murder.

Yes lol , i suspect that some of them got quite wealthy after their deals with the dems

Yes PPP dont exist anymore , coz it has been banned to make way for the current governement

Why do you lie?

PPP was banned because their executives were caught committing electoral fraud.

I dont lie . The party dissolution was politically motivated .

Impeaching the culprits would have been suffisant otherwise

edited for misspelling

More lies from you. If you have evidence that the judges were paid or instructed to ban the PPP present it now. Otherwise you are making a statement of fact that has no factual basis. That makes your statement a lie.

The court had no discretion to act otherwise. Executives of a party were caught on video red-handed committing electoral fraud. There were no mitigating circumstances. The law required the dissolution of that party. And they were dissolved, along with a couple of other parties.

Well done Abhisit the Reds will hate you even more now

LOL.

They are disseminating lies and inciting people to sedition. The government is acting responsibly in shutting down their illegal broadcasts. No red will ever love Abhisit anyway.

Yes lol , i suspect that some of them got quite wealthy after their deals with the dems

Yes PPP dont exist anymore , coz it has been banned to make way for the current governement

Why do you lie?

PPP was banned because their executives were caught committing electoral fraud.

What counts at the end of the day is the number of MPs , so stick to that

No. What counts in relation to the arguments being put forth here about massive support for one party over another is the raw percentages.

So I will reiterate. Of all votes cast in the General Election of 2007 the breakdown is as follows:

PPP: 37.6% of all votes cast

Dems: 33.4% of all votes cast

No, the majority of Thai people do want them in power.

Source? Last elections they got somewhere in the area of just under 40% that does not strike me as the majority... only a few percentage points above the DEMS as I recall.

So ummm <deleted> are you talking about, yet again

Last general election PPP : 233 MP's , Dems 165 MP's . A mere 30% difference

Using a weighted average between the Constituency and Proportional votes for all votes cast in the 2007 election the results come out as follows:

PPP: 37.6% of all votes cast

Dems: 33.4% of all votes cast

If you are trying to determine how many people are represented by a particular party then the Proportional vote is the only sensible measure. For the Proportional Vote

PPP: 39.60%

Dems: 39.63%

We are now discussing about what the country wanted. While the number of seats in parliament determines power, it is also clear that the topic of discussion is the percentage of people supporting a particular party.

The Abhisit regime came in existence through abuse of power by the military.

Arguable, given the circumstances, but I won't try to make argument here.

The Abhisit regime came in existence through abuse of power by abuse of power by a court , both having no business banning a political party in any country that calls itself democratic .

This is your opinion, but your opinion is contrary to Thai law. The court is obligated to follow the constitution and the laws set forth for Thailand. They did not make the law regarding party dissolution. Their job is to adjudicate. That is what they did. There is no abuse by the courts for this.

We should remember that these provisions for house dissolution were included in the constitution precisely because too many parties were undermining democracy through electoral fraud and vote buying. It was intended to provide clear and harsh consequences to any party whose executives cheated during elections. Personally I agree. The only way to fight corruption is to provide stiff consequences under law and then apply the law as required. It is unfortunate that the PPP and others decided to engage in electoral fraud, even knowing the consequences if they were to be caught.

Yes that is my opinion and that forum is about opinions .

I dont know of any another democratic country with such undemocratic law .

Fighting one evil (corruption) with another evil (perceived electoral court abuse of

power ) is not going to solve the problem .

The remedy is as bad as the illness .

Yes, but you are saying what should have been done. At the same time your recommendations of what should have been done are not consistent with Thai law. So it is impossible to come out with statements that say the judiciary abused anything when they were merely doing their duty under law. That was my point.

The current constitution was written by academics, professionals, politicians, businessmen, and a few military personnel. There were committees, drafts, etc. The process took about 8 months. The constitution was then put to the vote by a referendum. The people voted for the constitution. Like it or not, the constitution is the law of the land.

In hindsight we can see that there are obvious flaws. These flaws have partially led us to where we are today. During the recent televised debates the red leaders clearly identified the coup and the constitution as perverting the election. They therefore, due to a flawed electoral law, reject the previous election results. This is precisely why the Abhisit government wants to amend the constitution before the next set of elections.

Moreover, we must remember that immediately after the Democrats took power, the PTP demanded constitutional amendments. It should be noted that for six months the Democrats worked with other parties, including the PTP, to write specific amendments, some of which the Democrats opposed, but for the sake of reconciliation did not object to. Finally, when the amendments were about to be made, Thaksin called up the PTP and instructed them to pull out of the amendment process.

The Abhisit regime came in existence through abuse of power by the military.

Arguable, given the circumstances, but I won't try to make argument here.

The Abhisit regime came in existence through abuse of power by abuse of power by a court , both having no business banning a political party in any country that calls itself democratic .

This is your opinion, but your opinion is contrary to Thai law. The court is obligated to follow the constitution and the laws set forth for Thailand. They did not make the law regarding party dissolution. Their job is to adjudicate. That is what they did. There is no abuse by the courts for this.

We should remember that these provisions for house dissolution were included in the constitution precisely because too many parties were undermining democracy through electoral fraud and vote buying. It was intended to provide clear and harsh consequences to any party whose executives cheated during elections. Personally I agree. The only way to fight corruption is to provide stiff consequences under law and then apply the law as required. It is unfortunate that the PPP and others decided to engage in electoral fraud, even knowing the consequences if they were to be caught.

There are two choices. Either dissolve parliament or have a blood bath. I vote to dissolve parliament and get it over with.

Who is the blood bath ultimatum being presented by?

It happens to be my opinion. If the government tries pushing them off the street, the people will fight, the government will fight back and the whole thing will turn into a violent riot.

And who's fault will that be? If the redshirts weren't demonstrating illegally and engaging in economic terrorism there would not need to be any crackdown whatsoever. All the reds need to do to be fully legal and legitimate is to move back to the pan fa bridge. This is quite a bit more sensible than riots and crackdowns or dissolution of a legal government.

I don't really see how Abhisit or the Military can use force at this juncture. I don't doubt the ability to shut these protests down, but the cost could be too high for the country to bear. Every day that the government stands strong and nobody is injured or killed is a victory.

Either the reds will run out of steam, or they will be caught bombing or firing a grenade, or they will become outwardly aggressive or violent with authorities (more than mere skirmishes). If any of the latter two occurs it will be time to move in. Until such time they must wait.

I dont see the mamas and elderly from Isaan firing RPGs or maning M60's . Those that would do that , given a chance ,are a small minority like Arisman and his crew of thugs and they should have been arrested long ago had the Abhisit regime beeen in any sort of control which obviously till now they are not . In this , they are as much to blame as Arisman&co .

Edit : on the rest i concurr , the governement has to be patient and open to ideas from all sides

It seems clear by now that the bombings and grenades are coming from red agitators. There is no proof, obviously, but that is what I believe. Therefore when the perpetrators are caught and if they are on the red team then the protests need to be put down immediately. If the perpetrators are caught and if they are on the government team then Abhisit would need to step down immediately. If the perpetrators are caught and if they are from the military then neither the redshirts nor the government are responsible. How do you censure the military?

I don't really see how Abhisit or the Military can use force at this juncture. I don't doubt the ability to shut these protests down, but the cost could be too high for the country to bear. Every day that the government stands strong and nobody is injured or killed is a victory.

Either the reds will run out of steam, or they will be caught bombing or firing a grenade, or they will become outwardly aggressive or violent with authorities (more than mere skirmishes). If any of the latter two occurs it will be time to move in. Until such time they must wait.

THe last election in Thailand by the thai people was in December 2007 .

The PPP (proThaksin) won the absolute majority at that election if i remember well .

What election are you refering too ?

You are wrong. The PPP did not win an absolute majority. Here are those 2007 results:

Constituency Vote

People's Power Party: 36.63%

Democrat Party: 30.30%

Proportional Vote

People's Power Party: 39.60%

Democrat Party: 39.63%

The absolute majority is 240 seats .

In 2007 elections

The PPP won 233 seats

The democrat a distant secund won 165 seats

Wrong but by 7 seats only , not much and i said if i remember well

And of course you are aware that the only aspect of the Thai electoral process that is 'one man one vote' is the proportional vote. In this the Democrats edged the PPP.

I'm also not blind to the fact that the true power comes from the number of seats in Parliament a party controls.

THe last election in Thailand by the thai people was in December 2007 .

The PPP (proThaksin) won the absolute majority at that election if i remember well .

What election are you refering too ?

You are wrong. The PPP did not win an absolute majority. Here are those 2007 results:

Constituency Vote

People's Power Party: 36.63%

Democrat Party: 30.30%

Proportional Vote

People's Power Party: 39.60%

Democrat Party: 39.63%

As for strikes, how can someone who needs every baht of their 250 baht daily wage, go on strike. (people on minimum wage)

Probably the same way that our forefathers did during the labor movements in our countries. The organize. They meet. They strike. They get beaten. They are jailed. They persevere. They make the sacrifice now for a better tomorrow.

Why is it impossible to hold an Internationally monitored election now?

Many Thais from all sides would disagree with that.

Given that the democrats and all of their coalition partners are against immediate house dissolution, and that they represent over 50% of the population, it is fair to state that over 50% of country is against house dissolution at the present time.

This confirm the sterotype.

Most yellow shirts (high class/rich Thais) have internet access

Most red shirts (low class/poor Thais) DO NOT have internet access

Everyone in Thailand has internet access. There is at least one internet shop in every ampher muang nationwide. Most smaller cities and towns also have them. Almost every village has at least one pu yai who does have internet access.

I am not buying that it would have been impossible, or is still impossible, to crack down using normal riot control measures mixed with mass arrests. Yes, there will be casualties but the reds are begging for it, so what is the alternative, caving in to this anarchic mob? If the reds turn lethal, lethal response is legally justified. Any civilized country would have stopped this madness LONG AGO, and yes, I know Thailand is limited this way.

They didn't stop the PAD's Suvarnabhumi siezure and at the time their numbers were only about 30,000. Also I doubt that the Yellow Shirts would have taken on the Army. The Red Shirts however would do so. So what's best, dead Red shirts and Soldiers on the streets possibly followed by protracted civil war or put the question to the people through an election? There is only one answer.

Will you say the same when the yellows come out after the election, in the case of a PTP lead government?

How are rally participants running "amok" as you have put it?

1) Throwing blood on Abhisit's private residence and government house

2) Shutting down one of the busiest intersections in BKK for several days

3) Commandeering fire trucks and military vehicles and damaging them

4) Instilling fear in the hearts of large segments of the population in BKK

5) Storming the EC offices

6) Storming Parliament and declaring that they would take hostages by blockading the building to prevent people leaving.

7) Calls for violence against police or military who are required to ensure public order

8) Whipping protesters into a frenzy by playing doctored audio tapes

9) Attacking a mother trying to get her child to hospital

10) Physically assaulting soldiers

11) Likely the perpetrators of various bombings around the city

12) Causing traffic mayhem in various parts of the city

13) Threats of violence toward the PM

14) Threats of violence toward Chulalongkorn University

15) Threats of violence toward doctors who tested blood

16) Threats of violence toward anti-protest groups

17) Threats to invade the home of the PM

18) Publishing the private address and phone number of the EC with threats to his life

19) Threats to engage in guerrilla warfare

20) Assault and battery on BMTA sanitation workers

Is this enough or shall I go on?

Tell me about it. If this happens, hopefully the PT party will push a reform agenda ASAP aimed at keeping the military out of government, promoting free speech and media, and ensuring elections are free, fair and internationally monitored.

After all the tears and sacrifice on the part of the UDD protesters, the last thing Thailand needs is another slippery deal. Call an election!

Don't look to the PTP to be pushing through any tightening on the rules of corruption, or in setting harsh punishments for vote buying or electoral fraud. They are trying to repeal the stringent checks and balances put forth in the constitution.

Let us also remember that their roots are the party who enacted internet censoring legislation and stifled the media through libel suits. They are not one likely to be free speech advocates.

16 months. How many times has Abhisit been to the North or North-East, to talk with the poorer Thais and finding out what their problems and needs are? The last time he was there, it was to bring a big check to that 80 or 90 year old lady that lost all her land. Bangkok has the latest technology, skytrain, subway, high speed internet, etc. while a big part of the North and North-East countryside doesn't even have a fixed telephone line, but needs to rely on mobile phones with poor signals.

Yeah. And on that trip he was hounded by hordes of violent and unruly redshirts. After that he was going to make a trip to CM only to be the recipient of death threats by the redshirts. Oh yes, a very civilized and democratic bunch those redshirts are.

Questioning what you have posted and asking for evidence of accusations made by you is hardly harassment.

If you are not prepared to be questioned on accusations you make; if you are not prepared to provide evidence to back them up; perhaps you shouldn't make them!

To be fair you haven't answered or put forth the evidence asked of you by JT. Go figure.

This problem all started with a coup and perhaps it needs another now to finish it all off and stop the problems started by the first one ?

I see. So there are coups for no reason, just a couple of generals out for some kicks? No sir. You are sadly mistaken.

This all started when Thaksin claimed to be a champion of the people and then used this mandate to steal unprecedented amounts of money for personal enrichment from the very people he represented. Too rich for corruption? It started when he systematically dismantled the pillars of democracy.

If it takes a coup to get rid of the unelected Democrat/BJT coalition, which will then see the way to fair elections I am sure the Reds will be fine with that.

They want to stop the Democrats/BJT lining their pockets with the peoples money in the next 9 months ready to bribe their way to election wins, so a coup would be fine for the Reds as a process in order to get Democracy returned I do beleive.

Sometimes its takes one step back to move two forward.

Really?

The army have said they have no reason to use force, and rumours that they may withdraw support for Mark.

any PM who issues an order and it is dis-obeyed by Army/Police is not longer a functioning PM - some posters don't like it but answer is elections

Oh please. You'll use any angle you can to try to throw some dirt on the government. If the military cracks down on protesters you'll call for house dissolution. If the military and government decide to sit and wait you'll call for house dissolution. In all cases you'll call for house dissolution. So what exactly is your point? Oh yeah - house dissolution under all circumstances.

Well, it exactly that hardline approach, without consideration of the simple fact that the MPs in the coalition represent greater than 50% of the population, is exactly what is the source or these demonstrations. An pure unwillingness to discuss rationally and reach an agreement for the good of Thailand.

And most importantly, neither you nor I nor anyone here is privy to the high level conversations taking place on all sides.