way2muchcoffee

I am so tired of the bullshit and lies

Then stop speaking.

(Sorry moresomekl. A bit of a joke. Not intended to offend.)

Do you really want to see more fighting? The reds are armed with Ak47s and hand grenades. If there is another crackdown, thousands will could perish.

It could also result in terrorist attacks.

These problems cannot be solved with violence. Look what is going on in the South of Thailand.

There already are terrorist attacks almost daily. I suspect you mean terrorist attacks aimed at killing people instead of just instilling terror by random grenade launches at mostly unpopulated areas.

There was another terrorist attack withing the last hour:

M79 was fired at the residence of deputy director of TV Ch.5 but it missed the target and felt at a singer home.

Do you really want to see more fighting? The reds are armed with Ak47s and hand grenades. If there is another crackdown, thousands will could perish.

It could also result in terrorist attacks.

These problems cannot be solved with violence. Look what is going on in the South of Thailand.

There already are terrorist attacks almost daily. I suspect you mean terrorist attacks aimed at killing people instead of just instilling terror by random grenade launches at mostly unpopulated areas.

Not accurate --- what you see is someone that is probably army discharging a weapon. what you do NOT see is who or what he is shooting at. The french channel seems to say that this occurs just after the grenade attack. Sae Daeng, a red leader, has claimed responsibility for the grenade attack.

yes of course, people just shoot at nothing while wearing military uniforms, not a random i might add, but obviously amongst other soldiers

One standing and one crouching, firing directly ahead and from the reporter that was there firing directly at the protesters but hey i guess you had a better view from chaing mai than the person that actually filmed at and reported it.

is there no end to the nonsense that you can spout in defence of the murderous abhisit?

oh, and do show me a link to the admittance of sae deang that he threw this particular grenade, using your twisted logic it is just as possible that it was dropped by one of the soldiers,just as possible in fact considering how useless they are.

What is the sense of firing rubber bullets away from the crowd?

The point is to make them back off. But not to kill them.

The army was under armed compared to the reds prepared to kill for their cause.

please do not exagerate even Anupong is not accusing the Red shirts of killings, on contrary.

May I remember you that if there were there a proper Anti-Riot Police Force, the situation will be quite different today.

Army is a mosaic with dissidents taking some revenge about some internal decisions, this is a thesis wich get more and more probability. In any case, it should not be the role of conscript soldiers. Army should focus on External threats. This is an Internal affair. Today, change your rhetoric and help to build Peace, Abhisit is now an obstacle for building the Peace between Thais. He has to be removed this being said independantly of any opinion we may have on the man. Because the sake of the Country is more important than one man. He should understand ....

The Red Shirts are now struggling for themselves. I understand them, I will not negotiate with the man who has created the situation in which my colleagues have died. On a pure technical political point of view, Abhisit is now an obstacle to normalcy, he must be sidelined.

How many times are have you written about your beloved French Anti-Riot forces? Really? 20, 30, 50?

This is not France. Thailand does not have such a force. Thailand uses the military for this kind of operation. This is how they have always done it and this is how it was done. It is Thai protocol. They use the military and/or police for riots. You may not agree with the protocol, but to then say it is an inappropriate use of the military is wrong. It is entirely an appropriate use of the military in Thailand, because Thais get to decide this. Not you, not me, but Thais.

^banning someone for a cooking show is indeed harsh.

Totally untrue and you know it Brit. Shame on you. Samak was 'disqualified'. He could have returned to power the very next day, but was stabbed in the back by Thaksin as he wanted to run things his own way. Somchai took over.

Change your Rhetoric even Abhisit and Anupong are not accusing the Reds!!!

Not publicly. I believe what the government and military are doing is separating the peaceful redshirts from the terrorist blackshirts and terrorist redshirts. Again - we know that the redshirt security wears black. We know Sae Daeng's group wears black. The caption in the NYT says it was a redshirt guard. There are photos and video all over the place of redshirts toting firearms, firing weapons, throwing molotov cocktails.. The rhetoric from the red stages has been ultra-violent in nature. The redshirts even kidnapped somone today. The redshirts declared war publicly. The redshirts attempted to storm the army headquarters. The redshirts threatened to derail the BTS. Sae Daeng publicly stated that his group launched bombs and shot people. Sae Daeng runs the militant wing of the red shirts and has been photographed recently with Thaksin. What more do you need?

Red- allied Militia are not. Who are they ? Pretty much every group that doesn't get along with current gov.

Thai army today is deeply divided. No surprise if some join Reds. They will not disclose themself though.

I don't believe you about the army. The militia is under control of Sah Daeng (who has been very vocal about his opposition). How big it is remains to be seen, but I highly doubt he won any more friends during the weekend.

If you watch only 3,5,7,9,11, you'll only see private got hurt.

If you listen to Reds, gets some fact such as picture, clip etc. You'll see Red militia is teaming up quite well.

Havn't you ever wondered why M79 was going everywhere across the city and Gov can do nothing ?

Why Reds seized Thaicom station so easily ? Why Reds took over weapons from soldiers easily ?

500 M16, 100 C4, 20 machine guns. Reds show on their stage. If you take a look at them. You'l see this is not only about democracy shit.

There is sth going on under the army.

Apr 10, 4PM. A group of soldiers running 2 cars, packed with bunch of weapons, drove to Rama IV bridge and just let Reds surrounded and surrendered intentionly few min later.

This news was reported clearly via PTV. All reds saw it. They knew they were not alone in this battle.

This is why Reds will fight til death.

Sae-dang is more of a Red militia spokeman. He is no harm. The persons behind him instead, carrying unknown weapon.

Respectfully, I believe you are seriously mistaken. Sae Daeng is a very dangerous and violent man. To minimize his possible contribution to the events on Saturday is foolish.

The reds upset about the interference with their propaganda tv. OK, understandable. But today they kick out legitimate objective reporters from their stage. They don't like objective journalists? Just like their puppet master Thaksin who hated a free press, and was setting up a total dictatorship. Double standard? Of course, the reds love free speech but only their false Truth Today speech, other speech, shut up!

The point is they shut down the one place they could let off steam - and what happened? It was a serious error of yellow judgment - one of many with terrible consequences – now no matter what this undemocratic government offer in the way of an early election may not be enough – the reds don’t trust a word they say (and who can blame them?).

Censorship – in any wicked guise is still censorship!

Is that why the Red Shirts had all media removed from their protest sites yesterday? Censorship and double standards? Anyway, the situation needs to be resolved peacefully and quickly or we may well see more deaths.

Abisit should surrender himself to the police and stand trial for the murder of civilians.

Absolutely agree. So many people warned him pull back troops in the evening and start again morning day after.

He didnt. .. Not because he wanted to enforce the law.

He was just 'try' to show a bold move to publicity after being so humiliated again & again by the Reds.

His decision was not based on morality. It was THE biggest mistake for him to care his own image more than civilians' life !!!!!

Abhisit must stand trail for this incident.

Lots of Thais, especially Reds (50% of country - no bias ), will never forgive him.

He gave no orders to shoot or kill civilians.

He gave no orders other than clear our the illegal occupiers of public land.

If the occupiers chose to fight against a lawful order to disperse, it is

a ) their individual discretion and responsibility

b ) the leaders responsibilities for not pulling them back.

c ) if this be insurrection to "create a new state" as Veera and Jatuporn and Arisman have ALL stated,

then those going into harms way have them selves to blame.

And Abhisit has a responsibility to not allow a mob to take over the country,

no matter how heartfelt or altruistic SOME of the members may be.

You can spout the red party line all you want, wiser minds see through it as the propaganda effort it is.

This red group is not about actual democracy, but acquiring raw naked power.

Nothing more nothing less.

Lovely paragraphing... so neat and tridy!

Abhisit had the opportunity (now gone) to settle this by announcing elections... he did not... and what happened? he banned the one place the reds could let off steam - a foolish error of judgement and the spark that ignited the powder keg.

'wiser minds' is a matter of opinion... by the way... elections are on the way - a victory for the reds but what a price to pay! very sad that the government has so mis-read the national mood.

Not true. The demonstrators were repeatedly informed that they could protest legally around Democracy Monument. They refused, instead insisting to move over to Rachprasong and shutting down the Central Business District of Thailand. But it has moved well past this point now. All sides to be at fault to some degree or other. We will all naturally assign blame in proportions that consistent with our beliefs. That is okay. What is important now is to find a workable compromise so that the country can move forward.

The military wing of the Reds. Not under complete control of the Red 'assembly' of leaders, but seem to listen to some of them...

Not sure I follow, how can they be described as 'military' when they aren't under the aegis of the Government? And if not under complete control of the Red leaders, who brought them in/controls them?

Because they are military trained. Perhaps 'militant' would be a better word.

Brahmaburgers posted

Abhisit is not a puppet. He's also not an iron fisted tough guy,

So he needs all his backers to help him, remind him of the rewards he'll reap if he just hangs tough and keeps his chin up - leaving the armies daycare facility for scared little kiddies would be a good first step.

Right - so much for the great leader Abhisit, as he cowers in his bunker. How brave he is, and what an example he sets!

It's easy to see why his people detest him so much, to the extent where even the army don't frighten them. Abhisit is seen as just another spoiled brat who holds the rural majority in contempt.

Go on and continue with the hate speech. It really does seem that if we here at TV were Thai there would be one heck of a lot more death, mayhem, and destruction of Thailand. This hate comes from all sides in the debate.

The Nation TV in particular and most of the other Thai Chanels seem at last to be taking this seriously.

Much better and fairer reporting today. I assume they want their licences renewed under the next administration!!!

They were portraying the redshirts as normal people. Families, old and young, all with the same burning sense of passion for their Monarch, Country and religion. Much better all round and might even risk a newspaper tomorrow.

Abhisit was portrayed as he was. Nervy, hesitant, twitching, worried and unsure of himself. So regardless of the PTV being down, the countries population are getting and idea of what went on last night.

The Government version lacks credibility for many reasons, but the one true visual truth that is apparant is that the Army planned an assault and sent in the tanks. They are all their for the world to see, empty, ransacked and abandoned by their occupants who lack the elitist outlook of their commanders. They were ordered there, but like the proverbial horse that you can lead to water, they wouldn't, when it came to it, drink!

Please direct me to photos or video of tanks involved in last night's skirmishes.

So you want to say that the Reds were able to shoot over 800 people in less than one minute with automatic rifle fire and escape all capture? They shot their own people?

That is a crazy theory but I like it.

Why is it you find it hard to believe?

The Thai regimes have done this many many times in the past. Look up the early 1990s and see how many they killed in Bangkok.

You think a group that has done over 20 coups is against the use of violence on their own people?

NO

You know they did it.

Maybe you do not care but you know they did it.

Tell the truth.

Killed: 21

Security Forces: 5

Red Shirts: 15 (maybe a little less)

Civilians: 1 (maybe a little more)

Injured: 842

Security Forces: 273

Red Shirts/Civilians: 569 (no breakdown given)

Those numbers were given in one article and then later the number of injured was increased by 16 for a total of 858, but the breakdown wasn't reported.

Madi, you have repeatedly asserted that the military injured 800 people. Please check your numbers.

I do think that Thailand has some leaders in reserve. Same as Anand who has been suddenly introduced on the scene... We have to wait the Highest level is brain storming on this issue.

I'm sure there are very heavy discussions going on. This is a very difficult situation. A significant segment of the country is in open revolt. The protesters here represent millions of people throughout Thailand. And there are certainly many other Thais who understand and can sympathize with the feelings of being exploited and abused by the wealthy class.

This was once mostly about Thaksin, but now it is much more complicated. The whole nation needs to come together, throw down their swords, and work this thing out. Despite their rhetoric, I think even the red shirt leaders don't want this to escalate to some kind of civil war. Eventually they will calm down and agree to talks. It is the only way forward.

In addition to my previous post, general Chavalit is currently the Chairman of the Red Shirts, he is one of the 4 participants to the above mentioned meeting and I do believe that he is very favourable to a Government of National Unity: this is an idea he has promoted several times in the past, in other circumstances. I do believe that at least 2 other ex-PMs are open to this solution....

There are some strong analogies with the 1933 situation in Spain which has leaded to the Civil war three years later. However we are in Asia and the European History cannot be transposed directly in South East Asia. However, we have to be cautious and everybody must be of good will for defusing the situation.

Do you know anything about Chevalit? gads ... he sank the Thai economy and triggered the 1997 asian collapse. But hey, he's a friend of Thaksin!

yes I have gotten the privilege to meet him and to discuss (a little) with him.

If you read in details the 1997 story, you will see that he has "covered" the mistake of his Finances Minister and he has taken the full responsability on himself. Same last year, he covers his team and he resigns taking the full responsability. When he was in Army, he was very appreciated. I know some of his ideas amidst them the decentralisation of some Industries and the creation of Economical hubs. He has been unlucky in 1997, but his behavior is remarkable: he take full responsability of events when in fact the faults are done by a subordinate. He is in good relation with most of Politicians friends and opponents, he was close to Prem and I know he has worked with Thaksin as he has worked with a lot of people.

Personal touch; he listens to you and to others, he takes his decisions after listening... not always the case.

If a Unity Government were to form the question of the leader is interesting. It would be a temporary government with specific tasks to complete before holding an election. Therefore it is important to pick the right person for that job.

It should not be Chavalit precisely because of his role in the PTP.

It cannot be Abbhisit, for obvious reasons.

It cannot be any of the red shirt leaders.

It probably would be difficult to come to agreement over anyone from either PTP or Dem.

So that leaves the military - no way.

Barnharn - hmm.

Chuan - hmm.

Anand?

Others?

Listen, it's very simple: Abhisit offered to had election in six months instead than next year or so. Why the hel_l the reds didn't accept this and been back their home, waiting peacefully for the new elections?

The reds don't want to wait six months!?! Well, okay, here is the price to pay SIMPLY because they don't want to wait: 19 dead, 807 injured.

If their leaders had accept Abhisit proposal all these people will not be dead or wounded. Abhisit tried everything he could to resolve the crisis peacefully, he could not leave a minority of people destroying the country's economy. He had to defend the law and not let the country going into chaos simply because 50000 people can't wait six months for a new election!!! Is this difficult to understand!?!

You want no more dead people? Accept Abhisit proposal and get the fuc_k out of Bangkok! It's just as simple as that.

With all due respect bagheera65, you would make a very poor political leader. It is not "simple" like you imply. The last legislative were in 2007. All Abhisit is doing is trying to buy time. Don't just think he does that from kindness of heart.

And by the way, the UDD is more than 50,000 persons. Those 50,000 persons are simply the vanguard of over 10,000,000 supporters of the PTP everywhere up-country.

Assuming your pie-in-the-sky figures were accurate, which I don't, that would make them 15% of thailand's population. That would give them the right to peacefully protest without disrupting the lives of others, and to wait for the next election. It's called democracy.

Well, actually, its true I threw this number pretty quickly as it is very hard to evaluate the real support the UDD has.

The official numbers I have :

http://www.electionguide.org/election.php?ID=1253

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_general_election,_2007

The PPP won 233 seats out of 480 and got 36.63% of the votes.

I don't say that 100% of them support the UDD... but the vast majority does, even if they are only passive supporters.

To compare, the Democrats of Abhisit won 165 seats and got 30,30 % of support. But by combining the 5 running-up parties.. you get the 242 seats out of 480 to form a majority government.

Oh yeah, that is democracy... not at its best.

You might wish to check the proportional vote in which each voter gets one vote to select the party they want to represent them. In this election the Democrats Party had more votes than the PPP.

The video can still be seen here.

http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.co...elieve-panitan/

Finally saw it ... doesn't look like that hit came from the direction of the military at all!

It's difficult for me to tell where the military are. At the beginning of the video it appears they are all facing to the right of the road they are standing on. They are facing the barricades. Perhaps they are looking down a small soi? I can't tell. Then within a second or two they turn left and move forward down the street. At this point it appears that the security forces are directly down the soi with most redshirts are facing forward. We see there backs.

So where exactly are the military positioned?

In any case both sides have to change their Rhetorics. At 92%, Thais want PEACE so the Falcons represent 8% (4% on each side).

This should cool down everybody......

I really hope so.

Perhaps after the shock and horror over yesterday's events fades a little and realization sets in one can only hope that all sides give honest negotiations another attempt. It is the only way out of this crisis.

It is time to find an agreement acceptable to all. The alternatives are more deaths, coup, waiting until someone wins and then having others from another side repeating this. Talking and compromising, which means not just repeating some party line, is needed more than ever.

I agree for the most part. The issue is how to proceed.

The only way forward for Democracy in Thailand seems to be for Abhisit to hang on to power and clear the reds from the streets. THEN set up the constitution reform. THEN fall on his sword and resign and have someone else step up. Dissolve parliament in about 9 months and have elections at the end of the year.

What you propose is still the war.....Please, take some Altitude and come back with a peaceful solution

No Jerry. What the reds are, have been, and will continue to propose is war unless they get their way right now. That's the bottom line. They are unwilling to negotiate or compromise.

Interesting how most people are behaving as if it's all over by now. The government has shown its mighty military power and defended democracy and the lesson should have been that the anarchists cannot get away with their crimes. As if it were as simple as that...

What happened is that the army tried to restore order. The result is that by now already 18 people are dead and more than 800 injured - the army retreated but the Reds Shirts are still occupying Phan Fah and Ratchaprasong - anything but order is restored. The only tangible result of that operation might be that now both parties agreed to talk again.

If the level of pressure and violence was not enough to restore order how many lives will be lost once the army increases pressure to finally clear Phan Fah and Ratchaprasong? Is that the only solution?

Give peace a chance again and let's hope that the talks will finally end in an acceptable compromise.

I agree. For weeks now radicals have been calling people they don't even know vile names. There has been talk about winners and losers. There have been no winners. Many families have lost loved ones and many others have been injured. I hardly call that winning.

Forgetting the disgrace of politicians and Generals using soldiers to fire at other Thais, It has to stop and negotiations must start.

Neither side can be stubborn. Both have to give. It is ridiculous to demand 9 months when the rest of the world knows it only take a couple months at the very extreme. The opposition knows also that the mechanics of holding a national election takes more that 15 days. Why don't persons of good will from the government and the opposition begin negotiations to define the framework for a dissolution and election determining exactly how much time is required for the mechanics of an election. Then go to their respective groups and convince them that's the best that both sides can achieve.

I, for one, am tired of hearing propaganda and spin everyday and think it is time for all people to check thir egos and work together.

It is ridiculous to demand 15 days dissolution when there are 20 months remaining before elections are due. 9 months is more than fair and certainly a reasonable compromise.

You havent replied on shutting down the TV station which started the

violence

Where have you travelled lately ? Somalia , Uganda or Sudan ?

Which democratic governement sends armed soldier with live ammo against

civilians . They send police with tear gas , sound projector , water canon .

Takes a bit longer but usually no deads .

If the governement cant train properly his police in crowd control

they have no one to blame but themselves

But then you are right in one thing ,Abhisit governement dont answer to the people

he is illegitimate , so what for bother ...

Yes. They did all those things first. Then they were attacked with spears, chairs, bottles, firebombs, guns, and grenades. And they reacted.

The solution as i said before was very simple . If you are the PM and yu can not negociate or stop a protest except by using live ammunition then you simply RESIGN . There is no shame in that at all . Abhisit is very very much disliked in the country side FYI , he is a golden boy with a pretty face acting as a lap dog to those who are responsible for the misery of the Isaan ppl (3000 baths per month , familly of 4 , try to live on that) and moreover he stole their vote . Had he resigned he would have triggered a political crisis followed by a move by the whole political class to form a governement of national unity and they stood a very good chance to have negociated with the reds . No need elections in 15 days for that .

It would be irresponsible to resign until the city has been cleared of violent protesters. After that he probably will. It may even be part of the negotiations. However, until the redshirts are willing to negotiate, and the result of that negotiation is the cessation of all demonstrations, the PM cannot step down.

My Taxi driver gave me the going Daily rates:

Pick-Up - 5,000 Baht

Taxi - 2,000 baht

Motorcycle or Tuk-Tuk - 1,000 Baht

Demonstrator - 500 Baht.

Funeral - Send the bill to Thaksin, but don't hold your breath!!!

CS

The government last night announced that they would make reparations to all injured/killed.

20,000 bt for hospitalized up to 20 days

40,000 bt for hospitalized for longer than 20 days

Up to 100,000 bt for long-term hospitalization

400,000 bt for families of deceased

Korn announced compensation to small business owners who's business has been damaged by the demonstrations.

These are small measures, but at least someone is thinking about long-term effects and willing to make reparations.

Today is not the day to accuse each other and particularly the people engaged on the battle field.

Today responsible people try to avoid the situation escalading.

In democratic Countries we have special Anti-Riot Forces associated with Police. It is a Police Job to control a Mob, not an Army one.

The Army Spokesman is now dissatisfied because the Red Shirt do not respect the soldiers: it was predictable, is not it? ARMY is loosing its credibility: this is an important breach toward a Civil War if the reasonable people loose grip.

Follow your own advice please. You cannot call for people to be responsible in the first paragraph and then start slinging blame in the second.

In hindsight, it does look like it was planned like this all along, specifically the attempt to take out pro-Red TV and radio stations and internet sites. After that a bloody crack-down followed. The reasoning seems to have been that without those pesky news sources around, the lid could be kept on it.

In this day and age, that of course doesn't work.

And you claim to be neutral?

Yes absolutely. Would you disagree that Abhsisit (or whoever is really in charge) set this thing in motion with martial law, censorship and then action? That's no different from what you read in internatinal news sources. You're calling those not neutral too? Look up from the pages of The Nation occasionally.

Let's just say we disagree. I don't have the mood for debate or placing blame. All I'm saying is that your posts these last weeks have been far from neutral. It is ok if you don't wish to do a self-examination. We are human. Our hearts take sides, even while our brains resist.