way2muchcoffee

In my Country (France), we do have (more often than the average) mob rallies. It is part of the Democracy: it turns from time to time violent (more violent than in Thailand). The Government is utilizing special anti riot forces (the CRS) and Police.

For 2 reasons, Army is not used:

• Because it is a symbol of National Unity, we do know that inside there are the same divisions than in the Civil society. You must not put the soldiers in a situation they have to choose a side. Army has to be used for external threats ONLY.

• Army must not be involved in politics, Army is at the service of the Nation as a whole and not to a part of the Civil society. If you involve them in politician police operations, later on you give them justification to proceed to "Coup".

We have to separate the "genders". Operation of Police and Military Operation.

I will add one more reason specific to Thailand:

Recent history of Thailand is a regrouping of dozens of small entities. The current political division corresponds also roughly to a territorial division. (North against Bangkok + South).

If Army is involved in Politics, there are justification for taking side and provide support to all sides, and as we know than we have inside the same divisions than the Civil Society, it ease the slip to a Civil war.

On contrary,by staying neutral, above the political divisions, Army must be the Guarantee and the Reference for stability of the Country within its boundaries for ALL THAIS above the current political territorial partition.

Army has to stay neutral, and be the reference for ALL Thais. I will add than in Thailand because it is the ROYAL Thai Army, more than in any other Countries Army must be a symbol of UNITY.

POLICE with the required reinforcements (Special Units) is the tool for controlling a mob.

Every knows the French “Légion Etrangère”. In the rules of engagement, it is stipulated that we must not engage a “Legionnaire” in a Military action against his Country of Origin, against his fellow citizens. This is for a Professional Soldier….What do you want a conscript do?

You mistakenly think that Thailand is France. Thailand does things the Thai way, right or wrong. I'm sure if you tweet the generals your ideas with details about how you and the French handle civil uprisings, I'm sure you will be immediately ushered in to high level talks and you will quickly become chief adviser to the Thai military.

I'm going to take a guess at what will happen tomorrow:

- Thailand will wake up to the PTV signal being blocked again.

- Red shirts will head to ThaiCom once again.

- Army & Police will throw smoke bombs and tear gas against the wind again.

- Army & Police will run away again.

- Red shirts take over ThaiCom again.

- Abhisit will speak on national TV pool again saying that he is completely in control.

- Abhisit will issue another 1,000,000 arrest warrants for everyone and their grandmother.

- Army & Police chiefs will have dinner with the red shirt leaders at the nearest SomTam shop and discuss lottery numbers.

I suspect your crystal ball may be cracked, but we shall see.

During tonight's press conference Abhisit was flanked by Anupong, Prawit, and Suthep. This speaks volumes about the state of the relationship between the government and the military.

It appears that this afternoon was a simple cock-up. My guess is a combination of inept leadership on the ground, poor planning, and soldiers and police who cannot help but be reluctant to fight their own people. Thai on Thai is a very ugly business.

Well any policing or national guard force is asked occasioally to do the same.

Physically confront and control their fellow citizens.

Either you do your duty, or you need to leave the service, end of story.

I understand what you are saying. Certainly we would expect our security personnel to do their duty. But this is something different.

During tonight's press conference Abhisit was flanked by Anupong, Prawit, and Suthep. This speaks volumes about the state of the relationship between the government and the military.

It appears that this afternoon was a simple cock-up. My guess is a combination of inept leadership on the ground, poor planning, and soldiers and police who cannot help but be reluctant to fight their own people. Thai on Thai is a very ugly business.

I hate to teach people to suck eggs, but please look backwards.

Sondthi, the coup leader who granted himself immunity and said he would never enter politics, who now is in a political party............. (tells you everything)

Sondthi said that he was scared Thaksin would invoke the SOE, as once the SOE is invoked the top brass can be replaced for failing to follow orders.

I think we are seeing a massive fight between Annupong and Abhisit/Suthep.

In order to appear to follow orders its why the Army put up a weak fight, fired some tear gas and then fell back at Thaicom.

Annupong has followed orders so Abhisit and Suthep cannot replace him.

Its all a game but it tells you loud and clear that the invoking of the SOE was a game by Suthep/Abhisit to get rid of Annupong.

We now have the Reds against the Democrats and the Army against the Democrats.

There could well be a coup soon, or more likely Annupong, the man said to be behind getting the small parties to go with the Democrats, will tonight get the small parties to join PTP and get the Democrats kicked out of office.

Possible. Amongst many other possibilities. I seriously doubt Abhisit or Suthep want to square off with the military.

Which ever way you cut it, it looks like Reds 1 - 0 Government today.

and as we all know the away goals rule it means that the Bangkokians need to score at least 2-0 in their next game to win. 1-1 is a victory for the away team.

If it ends 1-0 for the government tomorrow, will there be extra time or does it go straight to penalty kicks?

Let's all hope we can avoid a 'sudden death' scenario.

thanks. for the channel info guys.

If there were enough security forces to do the job and they didn't have the will then that's another story.

Obviously the govt had enough security forces, but clearly someone isnt listening to their orders.

Speculation at best Brit.

Has it occurred to anyone that Anupong is smarter than the politicians. Since he is getting very near retirement, he certainly doesn't have to kowtow to anyone at this point. He know that trying to disperse the red shirts will cause bloodshed and he doesn't want civilians or his soldiers to get hurt. Sooner or later Abhisit will have to dissolve parliament so it is better sooner than later.

Or perhaps the redshirt leaders might try rejoining the world of the civilized and agree to further negotiation with sincerity.

Oh hey - was that snow falling out my window?

I have reported all of these foreigners by name and nationality + picture to the Immigration Bureau. My wife, her sister and her brother-in-law all have fairly high up jobs there. Would be very surprised if they are not deported.

And you are proud of this?

Just Theitaliann's sense of humour kicking in again and he feels like winding someone up, seems his ploy is working...

Dang right it's working. What a crappy thing for him to say.

I suggest you guys turn on TNN News. While not in English, they're showing a lot more live coverage than other Thai news channels. I bet their ratings will skyrocket after this is all over, kind of like CNN during the Gulf War.

What channel is TNN on TrueVisions? I have the gold package. It's for my wife and I don't usually watch much TV.

If I was the govt - I literally would stop saying things you know you can't enforce and just do nothing. I would think time is on their side....

dam_n Brit. We agree again. That's twice in one day. Try for a third?

This is great news for the red shirts the pictures have gone around the world just watched it on the BBC Troops provoked the reaction the Thai people will not accept this Abhisit will be gone very soon I just hope it doesnt mean Thaksin's coming back

Yes. That's the problem. The prospect of Thaksin coming back.

That's one reason I don't understand why the army doesn't seem to be supporting the government. Red coup?

One can only hope that it is a matter of cooler heads prevailing. This thing is a tinderbox. Careers are on the line. And most importantly lives are on the line.

If there weren't enough security forces to do the job and they tried anyway that would have been very bad.

If there were enough security forces to do the job and they didn't have the will then that's another story.

It only takes one on-scene commander to call a retreat out of fear for his life, disloyalty, or whatever.

Surely you're joking.  I am a left-wing American who supports the Red movement as the only way for the Thai majority to increase its political and economic power.  What left winger would support the military and royalist faction in any dispute?

Ones who oppose the fascist nature of the redshirt leaders?

I have noticed a very clear pattern here over many months of those Americans who DO have a strong opinion on Thai politics.

Left wing Americans -- mostly anti-red/anti-Thaksin

Right wing Americans -- mostly pro-red/pro-Thaksin

Not all. Mostly. The main reason the left wing Americans are against the reds is Thaksin. He is too much like Marcos and a long crew of corrupt totalitarian dictators of any label for comfort. We see him as the opposite of pro democratic; we don't believe the Truth Today propaganda. Now American leftists are rather moderate compared to other countries. A hard core commie/Maoist, etc. type would of course be pro red and not be afraid of the dangers of a totalitarian regime.

I've noticed the same thing JT. Almost started a thread on it, but then figured there are certainly exceptions to the pattern, and given the level of discourse here, I didn't want to be their punching bag.

I voted for more patience. I hope that's what we're seeing here and not ineffectiveness. Time will tell.

My sentiments exactly. Time will tell.

I have reported all of these foreigners by name and nationality + picture to the Immigration Bureau. My wife, her sister and her brother-in-law all have fairly high up jobs there. Would be very surprised if they are not deported.

And you are proud of this?

This is a very delicate situation for the Military because its very hard to ask brothers to beat up their fathers. Perhaps they can bring Southern army units to Bangkok who aren't pro-TRT/UDD

Soldiers aren't well paid and probably more than 50% are pro-Thaksin

That is the problem when you are trying to run a country without the approval of the majority

That's the problem when you are trying to run a country without the approval of a sizeable minority who have no respect for the law and no respect for democracy.

I agree they were backed into a corner. It isn't about liking or not liking what they broadcast. It is that what they broadcast was proven lies, inciting people to riot, and making death threats. That is neither legal nor acceptable in every western country. You are mistaken if you believe otherwise.

I seriously doubt any of what was broadcast would incite people to riot. They just sat there like zombies and applauded whatever was said. I think you need to judge the situation as what it is, fiery rhetoric and nothing more. These people are not going to much of anything apart from marchong around the streets unless they are provoked by heavy handed responses. One being shutting down the Red Station.

Imagine if they shutdown ASTV - I think there would be full scale riots by the yellows and they would trash everything.

Well - we already know we disagree. I think people are listening. The whole point of the redshirts wanting PTV to be on air is because they too know that millions of people upcountry are listening.

Abhisit said he needed 9 months to change the constitution and then have elections.

How did he promise that ? Is it any wonder the Reds pulled out.

Are you saying that when he made the offer of going to the polls in 9 months he did so on the proviso of constitutional amendments, and if amendments weren't made then the election would be called off?

That was my understanding rixalex, but I don't believe the matter was discussed sufficiently to know for sure as the reds walked away from the table.

^would not have happened if the govt didnt cut the signal to a media station. You may not like what they broadcast, but doesnt give you the right to shut them down. Bottom line govt made a mistake and backed themselves into a corner - end result they look stupid.

I agree they were backed into a corner. It isn't about liking or not liking what they broadcast. It is that what they broadcast was proven lies, inciting people to riot, and making death threats. That is neither legal nor acceptable in every western country. You are mistaken if you believe otherwise.

To the Thai newbie it may look that way. But those of us who have seen this all before many times know that this is a chess match with carefully calculated moves. If you want to see lawlessness and violence in Thailand, look to the south. Up in Bangkok, it's all a game.

Ad hominem

Try better next time.

Thanks, so now we know who was telling lies at the negotiation table.

You say Abhisit has only had 16 months and could not change it (nonsense) because someone else stopped him.

But then on TV he said he could do it in 9 months and then hold elections.

Thanks for making it very clear who was the not sincere party during the negotiations with the Reds.

When he said change the constitution in 9 months and hold elections then obviously this was not the truth, according to what you say ??

Do you have any knowledge about events in Thailand at all? Your ignorance is overwhelming. It would take three people full time to fill you in on all of the errors you make. Here is the sequence of events for the charter amendments.

1) The PTP demanded amendments. This was their primary condition for reconciliation.

2) The Democrats preferred no amendments, but were willing in the interests of reconciliation.

3) The Coalition Partners all wanted amendments.

4) Bipartisan committees were set up and worked for many months.

5) A conclusion was reached that was amenable to all parties, including the PTP.

6) At the very last minute the PTP pulled out.

7) Given that the PTP were the ones demanding the amendments, and suddenly reversed their decision, the Democrats decided to put the whole thing on hold. And that's where we are today. All that needs to be done is dust off the previous agreements reached by all sides and go forward with the amendment process.

Please do not change the subject and go off on a diversion.

Abhisit said he needed 9 months to change the constitution and then have elections.

How did he promise that ? Is it any wonder the Reds pulled out.

If as you state he has no control of the amendments, then he was telling lies when he said "9 months to change the constitution and have elections".

Thats simple to follow is it not ?

Simple unless you might be a Yellow shirt liar perhaps ? I do not know.

Really? That is your response? I'm speechless.

Excellent victory for free press!!! Kudos to the red shirts for standing up for democracy. Anyways looks like the govt again is shown as weak/powerless!

Excellent victory for mob rule, lawlessness, and violence.

Thanks, so now we know who was telling lies at the negotiation table.

You say Abhisit has only had 16 months and could not change it (nonsense) because someone else stopped him.

But then on TV he said he could do it in 9 months and then hold elections.

Thanks for making it very clear who was the not sincere party during the negotiations with the Reds.

When he said change the constitution in 9 months and hold elections then obviously this was not the truth, according to what you say ??

Do you have any knowledge about events in Thailand at all? Your ignorance is overwhelming. It would take three people full time to fill you in on all of the errors you make. Here is the sequence of events for the charter amendments.

1) The PTP demanded amendments. This was their primary condition for reconciliation.

2) The Democrats preferred no amendments, but were willing in the interests of reconciliation.

3) The Coalition Partners all wanted amendments.

4) Bipartisan committees were set up and worked for many months.

5) A conclusion was reached that was amenable to all parties, including the PTP.

6) At the very last minute the PTP pulled out.

7) Given that the PTP were the ones originally demanding the amendments, and that they suddenly and inexplicably reversed their decision, the Democrats decided to put the whole thing on hold. And that's where we are today. All that needs to be done is dust off the previous agreements reached by all sides and go forward with the amendment process.

Surely you're joking.  I am a left-wing American who supports the Red movement as the only way for the Thai majority to increase its political and economic power.  What left winger would support the military and royalist faction in any dispute?

Ones who oppose the fascist nature of the redshirt leaders?