way2muchcoffee

In hindsight, it does look like it was planned like this all along, specifically the attempt to take out pro-Red TV and radio stations and internet sites. After that a bloody crack-down followed. The reasoning seems to have been that without those pesky news sources around, the lid could be kept on it.

In this day and age, that of course doesn't work.

And you claim to be neutral?

Abhisit had no choice but to react. Most leaders would have done so a long time ago. So far, the entire country are the losers now. Hard to tell about the future.

I disagree I believe Abhisit himself would have carried on attempting to control and defuse the situation..........was he pressured into action? by the reds? or by his own side?

Abhisit represents all the people of Thailand, and not just a minority from the North and NE. He had no choice but to respond to the sedition taking place in the nation's capitol. What the redshirts were doing and saying was highly illegal and no government anywhere would been so tolerant for this length of time. He had no choice but to act, and in doing so people were killed. He has to take responsibility for that. He is the PM.

A very reputable Thai source in my Facebook feed said about a half hour ago that the Red Shirts have taken 28 soldiers hostage. Surprised there is no new thread about this, if it is accurate...

It is accurate. There are pictures. The soldiers look afraid of being murdered. The reds have become grade A terrorists now.

Jingthing do you have a link to this?

Yes JT, link please.

See it now. Thanks.

Pardon me for a quick off-topic question.... tomorrow we are planning on driving from Saraburi past Swampy to go to Pattaya for a few days. That should be OK, right?

You'll be fine. Just take the ring road from Rangsit to Bang Na.

Nobody cares but here are my predictions:

1) Talks tomorrow. These will determine the course of the next events.

2) If redshirt leaders are intransigent and unapologetic then talks go nowhere and we see a military coup. This will be necessary to restore order to the country

3) If redshirt leaders, government, and military can work out a solution then I think it will take the following form

4) Redshirts leave BKK

5) Abhisit steps down

6) Some redshirt leaders report to police to hear charges and are released immediately on bail....

7) Unity Government is formed

8) Constitution amendments agreed upon by all concerned parties

9) Constitution is amended by referendum

10) Parliament is dissolved

11) Elections are held

12) Timeframe from now to the next elections = 9 months.

This is a real bad situation now........who pushed for the troops to be sent in?.......not looking to apportion blame......but my bet is..... it is none of the frontline headliners who will take the fall for this!!

Once the redshirts have left Bangkok and calm has returned I suspect Abhisit will step down. The deaths occurred on his watch. He is holding the position of PM that is all that matters. It is unfortunate for him, but I really don't see anything else he can do.

Veera, Weng, Jatuporn, Arisman, Nathawut and other redshirt leaders should be tried and jailed. IMO they are the ones who are truly responsible for these senseless deaths. Perhaps further charges could be added on Thaksin's long list of pending cases.

Abhisit shouldn't step down. He's really a reformer. I can't see a future for the Red leadership. My best guess is that they will continue to point the finger at someone else. The real victims? The dead and the followers of the Reds.

I agree. He shouldn't step down as he was only performing his duty, and he did so admirably. But I think he really has no choice. He certainly cannot step down until after this crisis is defused. But once it is sorted I believe this is what will happen. Tomorrow there will be further talks between the government and the redshirt leaders with Chaturon as the redshirt representative. Hopefully this can be sorted quickly without any further loss of life.

This is a real bad situation now........who pushed for the troops to be sent in?.......not looking to apportion blame......but my bet is..... it is none of the frontline headliners who will take the fall for this!!

Once the redshirts have left Bangkok and calm has returned I suspect Abhisit will step down. The deaths occurred on his watch. He is holding the position of PM and that is all that matters. It is unfortunate for him, but I really don't see anything else he can do.

Veera, Weng, Jatuporn, Arisman, Nathawut and other redshirt leaders should be tried and jailed. IMO they are the ones who are truly responsible for these senseless deaths. Perhaps further charges could be added on Thaksin's long list of pending cases.

It is the Reds using live bullets.

4 red shirts dead.

There is film of Thai Army using live weapons.

Not a single Army causality...

How do you explain your logic?

Two dead soldiers. Over 60 wounded. One soldier impaled through the neck with a sharpened bamboo stick. Several protesters dead, one foreign reporter, and an unknown number of civilians. This is a tragedy.

Yes, I would like to see the international media now take note that the red shirt movement is led by terrorists. For a while, the naive fools were buying the propaganda that this was a non-violent, pro-democracy, movement. It is time for the world leaders to take sides now, for the reasoned civilized government (which WAS elected legally and has scheduled future elections, just not on the forced timetable of the terrorists), and against red shirt terrorists fueled by radical Maoists.

And let the media also remind the world that ALL it would take for this to stop

is for there to be an election to get rid of this army installed government......not such a hard thing to do

if people really want peace

And let the media also remind the world that ALL it would have taken for this to never have happened would for the redshirts to have negotiated in good faith at the beginning instead of giving ultimatums, throwing blood, making public death threats and illegally closing down the central business district.

There would have been no red shirt had the Abhisit governement been elected by the people rather then by prompted by dirty tricks in parliament or by a military coup before , our friend is right .

There would have been no coup except for Thaksin - and the buck stops there.

Threathening and doing it for real are VERY VERY different things .

Never happen to you to threaten someone when you are angry ?

If Red shirts are shot at of course they defend themselves , its sad

but unavoidable . What do you expect ? .

Its the police hiding behind women . You are confused

Consider if you were to head back to your country today. While you are there threaten to kill your countries leader. Also threaten to derail a commuter train. Do this during a demonstration and broadcast it to your nation. What do you think the response would be?

Today I just witnessed the worse national disgrace and misuse of the military since I watched the East Germans Army trampled their neighbors with similar shields as we just watched on TV.

Soldiers are supposed to exist to protect the Country and its citizens. Today we watched as politicians used these soldiers to trample their friends and families and children and monks and all to try to hold the poor and dis-enfranchized Thais hostage to their quest for continued power over them.

I won't bother to respond to anyone who would attempt to defend this disgrace.

The whole government is responsible for this disaster now. There can be no excuse for this disgrace brought on the country and these soldiers. If they had any integrity they would submit the resignations NOW.

If the redshirt leaders had any integrity this whole thing would never have started. Filling peoples minds with hate speech night after night. Death threats. Violence. This has been their message, even though the were able to keep the violence under control for the first weeks. The redshirt leaders should be jailed. No government anywhere in the world would have been as patient or tolerant as the Abhisit government has been. When the redshirts finally pushed too hard the Thai people demanded the government respond.

One red shot dead tulsathit twitter

Terrible. One can only hope that his death would give everyone pause. Sadly I think this will not be the case. Arisman just declared war. They all need to stop this madness now. The reds need to cease all activity and give the order to head home. There are better ways to solve political problems.

Yes, I would like to see the international media now take note that the red shirt movement is led by terrorists. For a while, the naive fools were buying the propaganda that this was a non-violent, pro-democracy, movement. It is time for the world leaders to take sides now, for the reasoned civilized government (which WAS elected legally and has scheduled future elections, just not on the forced timetable of the terrorists), and against red shirt terrorists fueled by radical Maoists.

And let the media also remind the world that ALL it would take for this to stop

is for there to be an election to get rid of this army installed government......not such a hard thing to do

if people really want peace

And let the media also remind the world that ALL it would have taken for this to never have happened would for the redshirts to have negotiated in good faith at the beginning instead of giving ultimatums, throwing blood, making public death threats and illegally closing down the central business district.

Here is a weird one. It seems the reds Buddha image has broken in two, Being taken by some as a bad tiding. Wonder how many people believe in that kind of stuff

Far too many. Particularly country Thais.

It's an omen for sure, and is the kind to give a sense of foreboding in the average up country Somchai.

Why else did Thaksin go to such lengths to do all those rituals and have others do them for him when he wasn't here?

Because most of his chosen demographic is profoundly superstitious.

This is the kind of omen that loses wars.

Whether that will be true this time.....

It may be an omen, but not necessarily for the redshirts. I suspect this is an omen of ill tidings to come for Thailand.

Note: As a physicist I don't put much stock into omens...

1) Ridiculous. The problem yesterday seems to revolve around incompetence by the commanders on the ground.

Do you not think w2mc that their incompetence was a result of not being given clear and decisive directions from the top? That was my reading.

Probably.

Here is what was left of the car standing in the entrance to the Intercontinental/Holiday Inn Hotels last Saturday afternoon.

Same one that was on his facebook page.

I did notice from his facebook page he also belonged to an anti red shirt group, and some of the remarks on that site wouldnt be allowed on here.

Did the little boy not have the strength to open the window and ask the gents to please move the motorcycles, or were they beneath him?

Maybe he didnt want sunburn on his lily white skin.

Who knows, just another spoilt little brat who hides behind daddys name.

Or, much more likely, the toughs on the motorcycles happily blocked his path. Seeing that he was young and the that he was driving a porche, they most likely refused to move. So he nudged their motorcycles with his car, only to have it completely destroyed.

I agree. Constitutions should only be changed through a referendum.

I think putting changes in the constitution to a referendum is a farce. I bet no more than 1% of voters actually read the constitution and probably only about half those understand it.

Changing bar opening times is a good subject to put to a referendum.

That may be true Abrak, but the people need the last word on a constitution change IMO, whether they are able to understand it or not.

1) replace the Army General

2) make it clear to the redshirts that force will be used and all those not disbanding will be arrested and fined

3) inform the redshirts that the debt moratorium will be cancelled if they do not peacefully disband

OR:

4) increase the debt moratorium if they peacefully disband

5) give each of them money for transportation home plus expenses since Thak may not pay them if they disband

6) sit back and have a beer

1) Ridiculous. The problem yesterday seems to revolve around incompetence by the commanders on the ground.

2) Won't help much, but not unreasonable, and it seems they have already done this for the most part.

3) Totally inappropriate.

4) Totally inappropriate.

5) They have already done this.

6) Drunk leaders might not be such a good idea, but point taken.

Are you sure it is only "way to much coffee" and nothing else?

Care to argue the points, or do you prefer to make suggestions that I am an alcoholic or worse?

I will confess to nicotine and caffeine intake today though. Along with a caesar salad. The bacon must be doing my head in.

Of course I do . Thats one the main reason why i do not support immediate general elections . But the change of constitution must be subject to a referendum by the entire nation in my view

I agree. Constitutions should only be changed through a referendum.

1) replace the Army General

2) make it clear to the redshirts that force will be used and all those not disbanding will be arrested and fined

3) inform the redshirts that the debt moratorium will be cancelled if they do not peacefully disband

OR:

4) increase the debt moratorium if they peacefully disband

5) give each of them money for transportation home plus expenses since Thak may not pay them if they disband

6) sit back and have a beer

1) Ridiculous. The problem yesterday seems to revolve around incompetence by the commanders on the ground.

2) Won't help much, but not unreasonable, and it seems they have already done this for the most part.

3) Totally inappropriate.

4) Totally inappropriate.

5) They have already done this.

6) Drunk leaders might not be such a good idea, but point taken.

In Thailand they have a law in the constitution that allows a court to ban an ENTIRE political party if one or more executive of that party are found gulty of breaking the law.

The party is dissolved. Only the executive is banned.

Of course no general election right after are mandatory . Imagine should Gordon Brown be found of getting kickbacks , the entire labor party beeing banned , and the conservative coming to power without general elections of course

Much cleaner than the Thai way! If the coalition had held together when the PPP was dissolved, it'd still be in power, even if the friends of Newin had quit. Do the arithmetic, and recall the speculation that the old PPP coalition might yet be revived, excluding the Democratic Party.

There is no need to dissolve a party in which milions of voters have put their trust in .

Banning the culprits , even sentencing them to jail is good enough .

Knowing the lack of transparency , and corruption , most probably

those who defected were offered incentive to do so of one sort or another .

So then you agree a change of constitution is absolutely necessary before any election in order to prevent this from happening again.

If the redshirts really wanted a peaceful resolution and were truly non-violent they could do several things.

1) They could regroup legally and peacefully at Pan Fah.

2) They could go back to the negotiating table, this time with a bit of sincerity.

3) They could stop trying to provoke the government into acting with violence.

4) They could clean up the rhetoric coming from their stages.

5) They could pack up and go home.

None of these very reasonable actions will occur though, because they are all about misinformation, violence, criminal behavior, and ultimatums. If they continue with their seditious and illegal actions they will get hurt eventually, and they will have no one to blame but themselves.

This is what we do not want happening.....

Agreed. The redshirts could do several things to prevent this.

1) They could regroup legally and peacefully at Pan Fah.

2) They could go back to the negotiating table, this time with a bit of sincerity.

3) They could stop trying to provoke the government into acting with violence.

4) They could clean up the rhetoric coming from their stages.

5) They could pack up and go home.

None of these very reasonable actions will occur though, because they are all about misinformation, violence, criminal behavior, and ultimatums. If they continue with their seditious and illegal actions they will get hurt eventually, and they will have no one to blame but themselves.

Most English teachers are only interested in beer and girls. The whole business is a joke aprt from International schools and universities.

Moronic and offensive and, IMO, decidedly untrue.

Saraburioz, is maybe one of them himself and reflecting this to all.

Feel sorry for him

come on people.

you think low paid teacher, which most are, are really interested in the intellectual development of their pupils.

the cream of the crop is not going to be english teasher in thailand.

Your opinion. However, of the teachers I know, most are family men and have been working and living in Thailand for over 5 years and some as many as 20 years. They are career teachers who have chosen Thailand. Many have advanced degrees and certifications. After several years it becomes clear which schools are suitable environments long-term. They find these schools and slowly build their wages to the comfort level. Sure, they may like a drink now and again, just as anyone else. They are not monks or saints. They are people who care passionately about their jobs.

Most English teachers are only interested in beer and girls. The whole business is a joke aprt from International schools and universities.

Moronic and offensive and, IMO, decidedly untrue.