way2muchcoffee

I can guarantee you Thaksin's money has absolutely NOTHING to do with my family's support for the Reds. He could go lose all his money in Vegas and fall off the Hoover dam and we'd still support the Reds. And my wife has gone to the rallys decked out in red at Ratchaprasong for (((GASP!!!!!)))) no cash payment!!!

That may be true. But in the end the redshirt movement only stands for what their leaders stand for. The redshirt leaders are there at the behest of Thaksin.

No, they're not. Here's the philosophical test: If Thaksin lost all his money and died today, would the red shirt leaders pack up, say awww shucks there'e no reason for us to do this anymore, and quietly head home? I think not.

No. The test is if or when the redshirt leaders or PTP come to power will they attempt to aid Thaksin in retrieving money that was confiscated or in any way try to whitewash his crimes.

I really find it hard to believe that so many people believe the UDD would pay people to murder their own supporters just to get some international sympathy. Because as a tactic it does not further their cause inside. Thailand

Actually the only group that stands to benefit from killed or injured protesters is the UDD.

I can guarantee you Thaksin's money has absolutely NOTHING to do with my family's support for the Reds. He could go lose all his money in Vegas and fall off the Hoover dam and we'd still support the Reds. And my wife has gone to the rallys decked out in red at Ratchaprasong for (((GASP!!!!!)))) no cash payment!!!

That may be true. But in the end the redshirt movement only stands for what their leaders stand for. The redshirt leaders are there at the behest of Thaksin.

A very, very politically naive statement.

If you say so. But the redshirts are taking their orders from Thaksin. So how can you possibly divorce the movement from their practical and spiritual leader?

You can insult people and parse words all you like, but I really do not see a way to support them. They are a political movement, not a social movement. Their demands are only political.

One could add....."Interesting to see all those who applauded the dissolving of the PPP, insisting that it was fair and not politically motivated, are now bemoaning this as a travesty of justice. How weird."

It is much more interesting for those who were complaining about the party dissolution being unfair, who then lose that opinion entirely when the Democrats may also be dissolved.

Personally, I think that part of the Constitution needs to be amended. Initially I wasn't so sure. The reasons for including it were to provide harsh punishments for electoral fraud. The consequences are what we see today. So evidently it wasn't thought out, a bit of an experiment that has proven to be a large mistake.

I am curious though. Since all parties, except the Dems, wanted to amend this clause, what will happen in future? Will the PTP suddenly withdraw support for the amendment they have been so riled up about these last couple of years, thinking that they have the upper hand now? Will amendments go forth and therefore the Dems won't be dissolved? Would TRT come back?

-- No, the corruption of the democratic party is CLEARLY not at the same level or the same charges as against Thaksin.

who are you to judge which level is acceptable.

May be Thaksin should have taken job in TV cooking show. THAT should consider serious crime to you.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. People with other opinions will think them wrong-headed, but nevertheless, it is up to each of us to look at the evidence and judge for ourselves.

And no, I don't support Thaksin. He should take responsibility for any wrongdoing he has done, just like Abhisit and the hypocritical Democrats.

It's impossible to be a redshirt supporter without being a Thaksin supporter. The redshirts support Thaksin. There is no gray area here.

I have looked closely at many of the videos posted around the web.

Circumstantial evidence leads me to forming the opinion the guys in black decided to start the bloodbath by shooting people from both sides in the hope they would initiate a bloodbath. Peaceful protests wouldn't have furthered their agenda.

In the videos I have seen the guys in black can move freely around the reds indicating they are part of the movement.

Anyone who thinks higher up people wouldn't sacrifice a few of the protesters for the benefit of the larger cause is naive.

This is about that same as my interpretation of the various video and photographic events.

This is just one part of the Seh Daeng declaration. He has explained that the Ronin fighters were trying to stop ARMY SNIPERS already shooting in the crowd, and in the action a Grenade has been throwed.

The mistake has been to put ARMY SNIPERS shooting in the Red crowd from Satri Wittaya School".

Please put the whole version, not only an extract.....

there was a third group of snipers "unidentified" Some other statements have also been circulating that the Army officers have been targeted by Laser beams from weaponry of the unknown snipers...

Seh Daeng was in a defensive operation...

The only public evidence of Army snipers targeting redshirts was a quote by Seh Daeng in Matichon. While I have no doubt that Seh Deang has quite a bit of knowledge about events Saturday night, I would take anything he says to the media with a grain of salt. There is no evidence to substantiate the claim of Army snipers that were part of the operation to clear the streets. There is evidence of redshirts being hit by bullets.

There is plenty of video evidence and photographic stills of men in black carrying firearms mingling unmolested with the redshirts. There is also evidence of redshirts themselves carrying weapons. There is also evidence of soldiers being hit with grenades, bullets, and molotov cocktails.

And the big question: Who took out the Commanding Officer for the Army?

Moreover the director of the school in question has publicly denied this, not that it means too much in this time of mass propaganda.

Seh Daeng was careful to not admit that he was part of any operation. But he does seem to have a lot of information, which may or may not be true.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7oKenp6ZLw

This video shows black clad gunmen firing at army lines.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY7OafG9Src

This shows someone among the reds firing at a third floor window, why would he be doing that, I suspect he was returning fire.

Which leads me to believe that the army had snipers positioned in buildings around the area, something which I think this video supports.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xcwxd7_redbkk_news

Maybe Satuday was the first skirmish in a civil war

Yes. I noticed that. An alternate interpretation is that they sniper in the building were the Ronin completing their necessary job of creating martyrs on the redshirt side and taking out military personnel.

Of course your guess is also possible.

However, I can see no benefit to either the government or military in taking out redshirts and other civilians. Whereas there are huge benefits to the redshirts, which we are now witnessing.

Ladies and Gentleman, welcome to the beginning of the end. Thailand's government has now publicly acknowledged that other governments have NO respect for it. Civilised nations are not partial to governments that come to power by way of military coups. Sorry, but that's how it is.

Foreign Minister Kasit has provided some startling honest insight that should be a jolt of hardpolitik for the Thaksin hating/red bashing legion of arrogant TV members. Kasit has basically shown Thailand's government to be weak and with wavering unreliable support. How can Thailand expect cooperation from foreign governments now? Does Kasit have a short memory? While he apparently cheered on the airport seizure, foreign governments were asking for Thai assistance to protect their nationals and for order during the PAD events. When the well respected German Ambassador to Thailand was publicly insulted by the Phuket governor what did Kasit do? Nothing. When the Russian Ambassador asked for help on the assaults of its citizens, what was Kasit's ministry response? What has Thailand's response been to the pleadings from multiple foreign ambassadors? Inaction.

This must be very painful for some of Thai Visa's red bashers to read. I have repeatedly pointed out that Thaksin was being allowed to circulate because no one had any use for the current government. How salient then the lament of Kasit that Thailand was "not getting any international cooperation at all" over Thaksin's case, saying even Interpol "just simply refused to work with us." Gee. How come some of us could see this, but the Thaksin obsessives could not?

When I made the point in February that general Anapong had been summoned to the USA and warned, some scoffed but now we see a further vindication as Kasit has asked the Obama administration for help. I wonder why?

How desperate is the current Thai government?

Thailand deputy premier Trirong Suwannakiri, who was also at the forum, warned that if the current crisis raged out of control, the military could stage a coup to restore order.

Great way to win the support of the governments that have so far failed to support you by "warning" of another coup.

And now the genie is out of the bottle.

He said any resolution to the turmoil might see the role of the revered monarchy revamped with greater involvement in the political process of the impoverished rural poor, who are up in arms against the nation's military-backed government.

This is called opening Pandora's box. As soon as any discussion of the monarchy's role in the political process is started, a process will be started that may have some very unintended consequences.

I also direct the Red Shirt bashers to the part of the statement that acknowledges what the conflict is about; the impoverished rural poor, are up in arms against the nation's military-backed government.

All in all this article should cause some of the more obnoxious members of TV to reconsider their positions and to perhaps undertake some serious reconsideration of their previous statements and positions. Those people are pwnage.

A very good post.

Be wary of a yellow back coup now. Kasit saying this is as you say the open admission that the whole propaganda against Thaksin for 5 years now is all falling to pieces. The government is seen by the world as illegitimate and nobody backs them.

The agenda is now a yellow backed coup and the implementation of "New Politics" where the Thai people cannot vote for the majority control of the government so it is said.

Yellows want an appointed by the Elite "majority" rule it seems and I expect a full scale onslaught in the media how "politics has failed" - when it fact it was all started because Democracy was working and a coup was held to remove Democracy.

Kasit appears to be hinting a new coup is going to be attempted and that "New Politics" is going to be attempted to be forced on the Thai people. The signals are all there in his "article".

Kasit is a <deleted>. He was not suitable to be a part of this government. Shooting off his mouth like this is totally unbecoming of the nation's chief diplomat.

The only public evidence of Army snipers targeting redshirts was a quote by Seh Daeng in Matichon. While I have no doubt that Seh Deang has quite a bit of knowledge about events Saturday night, I would take anything he says to the media with a grain of salt. There is no evidence to substantiate the claim of Army snipers that were part of the operation to clear the streets. There is evidence of redshirts being hit by bullets.

There is plenty of video evidence and photographic stills of men in black carrying firearms mingling unmolested with the redshirts. There is also evidence of redshirts themselves carrying weapons. There is also evidence of soldiers being hit with grenades, bullets, and molotov cocktails.

And the big question: Who took out the Commanding Officer for the Army?

Mark is clean?

Who is responsible for the action of Army Snipers? Who have given the Green light to engage them in action?

The only public evidence of Army snipers targeting redshirts was a quote by Seh Daeng in Matichon. While I have no doubt that Seh Deang has quite a bit of knowledge about events Saturday night, I would take anything he says to the media with a grain of salt. There is no evidence to substantiate the claim of Army snipers that were part of the operation to clear the streets. There is evidence of redshirts being hit by bullets.

There is plenty of video evidence and photographic stills of men in black carrying firearms mingling unmolested with the redshirts. There is also evidence of redshirts themselves carrying weapons. There is also evidence of soldiers being hit with grenades, bullets, and molotov cocktails.

And the big question: Who took out the Commanding Officer for the Army?

I pointed out what is certain and what is almost certain. then you can speculate like you do.

I don't doubt that black-clad people in the red ranks had guns, but I may have missed video/pictures of someone in red brandishing a rifle. Has anyone got footage of this?

Yes. Seen it. But I wouldn't want to search through the 500 or so pages on these various threads to find it.

The spokesman of the Internal Security Operations Commanded said Monday that either an active or a retired military officer identified Col Romklao Thuwatham for a gunman to take him out with M79 grenade.

Pol Maj Gen Disthaporn Sasamit said a laser beam was pointed to the group of commanders before an MP79 was fire at them, killing Romklao and injuring other senior officers.

Disthaporn said it was not a coincidence but everything was planned by the other side.

The spokesman said the other side was angry that Romklao led troops to restore order during riots last year so the other side was angry and would like to take a revenge.

Disthaporn said gunmen also fired at military officers from buildings so everything was planned by the other side.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/ISOC-...o-30127130.html

Another interesting tidbit to spur on even more speculation....

So military commanders were sighted with a laser and hit with a grenade, while other officers were fired upon from rooftops.

We'd obviously need an expert to get into that, but i'd imagine the trajectory of a grenade compared to a high powered round would be quite different. Lasers travel in straight lines, as do bullets over relatively short distances, but a grenade? How would that work?

I read it as one team or individual using a laser to mark the location of the military commander on the ground, and a second team or individual who fired the grenade launcher.

I think you're talking about a level of organization that would out-do even most regular army units. We'd need to know more about Sah Deang's people to know if they were capable of that level of sophistication given the apparently ad-hoc nature of the engagement at the time.

I wouldn't say it was ad hoc. Whoever did this was likely well-trained and connected. There were reports of leaks of army strategy. It is reasonable to think that whoever did this knew when the army was moving in and what their positions were. Seh Daeng may or may not have been involved, but he sure does have a lot of 'inside' information. In any case, you can be sure the faction of the army presently in power and running Saturday night's operation didn't target itself.

The spokesman of the Internal Security Operations Commanded said Monday that either an active or a retired military officer identified Col Romklao Thuwatham for a gunman to take him out with M79 grenade.

Pol Maj Gen Disthaporn Sasamit said a laser beam was pointed to the group of commanders before an MP79 was fire at them, killing Romklao and injuring other senior officers.

Disthaporn said it was not a coincidence but everything was planned by the other side.

The spokesman said the other side was angry that Romklao led troops to restore order during riots last year so the other side was angry and would like to take a revenge.

Disthaporn said gunmen also fired at military officers from buildings so everything was planned by the other side.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/ISOC-...o-30127130.html

Another interesting tidbit to spur on even more speculation....

So military commanders were sighted with a laser and hit with a grenade, while other officers were fired upon from rooftops.

We'd obviously need an expert to get into that, but i'd imagine the trajectory of a grenade compared to a high powered round would be quite different. Lasers travel in straight lines, as do bullets over relatively short distances, but a grenade? How would that work?

I read it as one team or individual using a laser to mark the location of the military commander on the ground, and a second team or individual who fired the grenade launcher.

The spokesman of the Internal Security Operations Commanded said Monday that either an active or a retired military officer identified Col Romklao Thuwatham for a gunman to take him out with M79 grenade.

Pol Maj Gen Disthaporn Sasamit said a laser beam was pointed to the group of commanders before an MP79 was fire at them, killing Romklao and injuring other senior officers.

Disthaporn said it was not a coincidence but everything was planned by the other side.

The spokesman said the other side was angry that Romklao led troops to restore order during riots last year so the other side was angry and would like to take a revenge.

Disthaporn said gunmen also fired at military officers from buildings so everything was planned by the other side.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/ISOC-...o-30127130.html

Another interesting tidbit to spur on even more speculation....

Thai at Heart: If Samak could be taken down for a cooking show (and a $15 fee for it) being classed as corruption, the Dems have absolutely no chance unless the Courts have abandoned any semblance of normalcy and justice. And you are actually supporting another coup? And still consider yourself to be democratic?

Samak was disqualified not taken down. He could have returned to the position of PM the very next day. He didn't as Thaksin preferred his brother in law Somchai to take over the PM role.

If the charges are true, then Abhisit benefited from the illegal acts and as such he has to resign.

Where or where have all the hypocrites gone? it wasn't too long ago that the anti red shirt groups were insisting that the various PMs on the opposing side hd to go for far worse crimes, like Samak's cooking show (fiend that he was - cooking on national TV, the horror).

How will TV's bully brigade spin tis to excuse the Dems and of course find a way to blame it on Thaksin. The Dems played hardball and got the hit right back at the pitcher's nuts. This is going to be painful to watch.

I am an Abhisit supporter, in general. If the OAG and then the CC rule that the Dems should be resolved, then that is what should happen. None of us has all the facts in the case. If there was corruption involved and Abhisit is banned for 5 years then that too is fully acceptable. The law is the law and it should be applied evenly and fairly.

Not in Gen Chavalit eyes. He means PAD. But what would PAD gain from that? They know it will only help the reds.

I wonder how the PAD managed to infiltrate red lines and hand out weapons to the redshirt toughs.

Sorry to point it out but Abhisit's chances of ever being elected PM directly by the people would still be less that a snowflake's in hel_l.

That's probably true. Somehow, after all this, I doubt he would ever want the job again. He was put in an impossible situation. He tried to reduce corruption, implemented a wide range of policies to help the poor, he was raised in a proper democracy and holds those values. He could have been a turning point for Thailand. Alas, it certainly appears that it is all over for him, at least for the foreseeable future.

Police with water canon and tear gas would have been perfectly adequate

Against grenades and AK-47s?

wrong --- the purpose of any countries army is to defend that country against foreign invasion and to assist in disaster relief when and where needed -- the internal control of the country rests with the police forces of that country - to up hold the law of the land - seems too often that the army has been used in this country to do the bidding of the govt in power -- or to stage coups when needed - not to be killing their own countrymen - would be interested to know if u can quote what country has used the armed forces to supress local situations like this = apart from burma - but i refer to developed countries - so sad we see thai killing thai -- who was first to throw the first stone does not really matter -- the over reaction by the army was the problem -- and as quoted earlier - if action had been taken against the yellow shirts like this what would the reaction have been also - takes two to have a fight -- or two to tango -- and finally -- the army did not have to be engaged -- but if it was it should have been better controlled and not let these young men run around with weapons primed with live rounds -- the fact that they did have live rounds clearly shows the intent they were going to be used for --

It is you who are wrong here. The army and/or the police have been involved in this kind of thing in Thailand forever. You are applying your western sensibilities to a country that is not your own. The use of the military was entirely appropriate as that is how Thais have traditionally solved these kinds of crises, albeit with poor results most of the time. Nevertheless, it is their army, their country, and their protocols. You or I may not like the way things are done here, but you are wrong to say that in the context of Thailand the use of the army to solve internal disputes is not the correct approach.

I think we can all agree it would not be below the Red Shirt mentality to spill some of its own blood to play the sympathy card. They killed their own people, shame on the reds!

That must be the most stupid post to date.

What is stupid about it? I think it is rather plausible.

^well who will you support when Abhisit is gone w/cohorts?

Good question. Can't think of anyone off the top of my head. Korn? Or will he be banned too?