TroubleandGrumpy

1. If/when you move to Thailand 100% and become a non-resident for tax purposes in Australia, you would lose the tax free threshold. This is the catagory I was talking about - I should have specified that. 2. If you stay more than 179 days in Thailand, you are a tax resident of Thailand for that year, and all money from the rent that you remitted into Thailand would be subject to income tax.

I am so happy that you are happy - thanks for sharing.

Yes mate - wine is over-priced everywhere nowadays - niche factor I reckon. When I was young we visited the Barossia Valley and the wineries sold good stuff very cheaply. Went again in late 2000s and they were all a rip-off - wine was good but the pricing was ridiculous - cheaper in the big stores.

I used to drink a lot of wine in Australia - even had some in storage (once owned a Grange). The wine in Thailand is massively over-priced and very under-quality. I believe that is because the excise and duties and local taxes on imported wine is extreme. But where is the local market/industry that they are protecting - it makes no sense at all (TiT). I have looked everywhere and never found what I would call a decent wine in Thailand at a resonable price. We once went to one of the Michellin 2 stars in Bangkok - they had a few nice wines - but extremely expensive. Whenever we visit Australia we grab a couple of bottles each and bring them back. I believe Singapore has very good wines available - but no idea of their prices.

We lived in Chaing Mai for a few years - it was horrendous some days - and worse in Chiang Rai. The forest burners after those mushrooms do not start their fires until after the local authorities have gone home. They have been doing this for decades and it aint gonna stop easily - they make a lot of money selling those mushrooms. Likewise, the corn farmers do the same - Thais are very good at breaking the laws and not getting caught. But the bigger problem is not in Thailand, it is the burning done in Myanmar, Loas and Cambodia. The predominant winds from the East and North at that time of year, blow their smoke into Thailand. Those countries dont take any actions to stop their farmers and mushroom hunters burning - and much of the smoke ends up in Thailand.

Yes there are honest, English speaking, competent tax experts - but they aint cheap - they mainly deal with businesses in regards to income taxations. Look through this thread and several names have been mentioned, and there are others too. There is no anwer to your question - far too many possibilities. One thing is clear though, in the future if the Thai RD believes you should pay income taxes on the money you have remitted into Thailand because you have not lodged any tax returns, then you will have to prove that they are wrong and that will have to be in the format and structure that they require. IMO if you have investments like yours overseas, I would see a tax expert and disacuss the situation. Not yet though - they are all waiting for 'clarifications' from the Thai RD - and their rule change is likely to be challenged in Court (at least under the fairness provisions of the Act, because they gave so little advance warning).

In Australia the taxation rules mean that 100% of the money you make from renting out a property is taxed - no tax free threshold. That and all the pro-renter rules and laws made it very unviable to be a landlord so we sold our property. However, we have maintained an 'address' in Australia (friends) who forward on any important mail. We also maintian all banking and Govt services using that address (licence etc.). In the future we might return to Australia when we are very old (in 80s?), because of the health system - it is basically free and is heavily subsidised. That may change though, with the current change in Thailand income taxation starting in 2024, which looks like they will tax the Pension and Savings that we plan to remit into Thailand over the next 10-15 years. Hopefully they will not do that and they will make exmptions for Expats Pensions and Savings, but if they do not, then we will either be moving to another SEAsian country - or back to Australia earlier than planned.

DTAs are not the blanket 'get out of jail free' card, that some people think they are in Thailand. DTAs are a method whereby someone from one country can claim tax exemptions and offsets/credits in another country, in order to avoid Double Taxation being applied. It is up to the Thai RD to agree with any claim made under a DTA in a tax resident's income tax return. It not that any taxpayer can give themselves a free pass and not lodge a tax return because of what they read in a DTA. There is no guarantee that the Thai RD will accept or agree with any claim using any DTA in any taxpayers income tax return. The application of a DTA is totally under the authority of the Thai RD - that authority does not reside with a tax resident of Thailand. However. if the Thai RD declares that any form of 'income' remitted into Thailand is not taxable income (such as Pensions or Savings from prior employment years ago), then and only then can a tax resident in Thailand determine that they are not liable for income taxes. If the Thai RD does not provide a declaration/ruling that the income being remitted into Thailand is not taxable, then the tax resident has to lodge a tax return and claim under a DTA that they are exempt or have offsets/credits - it is then up to the Thai RD to agree or disagree with that claim.

Ditto - and that is the issue many Expats are missing when being over optimistic (glass half full) about this matter. Taxation is not like Immigration etc. - the penalties are far more severe and no bride/agent can be used to solve the matter. Additionally, it is not a year to year matter - the Tax Dept can (if they want) go backwards over many years, and then they can hit you with fines for not lodging a tax return, fines for not paying income taxes, interest of 2% per month on those income taxes not paid, and any additional penalties they think applicable. Plus if the Tax Dept decides to do so, there can be police charges, court appearances, jail time, and deportation. As Capone found out, you dont screw with the Tax Dept. The Thai Tax Dept will be asking the banks to advise of any account holder who has remitted over a certain amount into Thailand (500K? 1M? 2M?). Then, over time, they will check that list against their tax lodgement records - they can take as long as they like - several years. So it is not a matter of 'keeping low' and getting away with it - in the end they will likely catch you - and when they do, it will hurt severely. International Guide on Criminalization of Tax Offenses | Thailand | Global Guide to Criminalization of Tax Offenses | Baker McKenzie Resource Hub According to section 37 bis of the Revenue Code, any person intentionally fails to file tax return forms to evade tax shall be subject to an imprisonment of up to one year, or a fine of up to BHT 200,000, or both. Yes I am hoping this matter will be resolved in our favour and that the Thai Tax Dept will clearly state that Expats pensions and savings etc. are not taxable income. But if they do not do that, then only a fool would bring into Thailand any more than is absolutely necessary in 2024. I plan to do just that (after bringing in extra funds before 31 December), while I wait and see what happens regarding this new taxation rule. Anyone bringing in a large amount of money in 2024, thinking that it will all be fine and good is being very unwise. Likewise, anyone packing up and leaving Thailand before July 2024 is also being unwise.

Fair Call

(REPOST) Not only is this probably the dumbest thing any Thai Govt has done to Expats, if they do want retired/married Expats to live here and want more to come, it is also the biggest discrimatory thing they have ever done to non-Thais. Imposing income taxes on 'visitors' who bring their own money into the country, clearly shows how little regard that the Thai Govt has for Expats. When the Govt Electricity Agency recently announced a big increase in their prices next year, the Thai PM immediately jumped all over them. But when the Govt Taxation Agency announces that they are going to tax the pensions and savings of all Expats who live in Thailand, when they bring their money into Thailand, there is nothing - crickets. This is despite the massive amount of social media 'coverage' this matter is getting ever since the announcement in September. If I have an income tax burden imposed on myself that ends up being what it looks like it will be, then we are leaving Thailand for sure. I am lucky - we dont own a house and we are not 'locked' into Thailand - I feel sorry for those that are and who also feel 'insulted' and 'offended' by this possible income tax imposition. All of the Visa impositions are going to remain, but they are not going to give me any additional legal rights, or Govt services, and all the other racist crap like dual-pricing they impose on me will remain. And let me tell you, my Thai Wife is a lot more angry about it - but being Thai she just keeps that to her self and me. Maybe for <20K a year I will stay - but only for the Thai Wife and Family. But if my calculations are correct and they demand I pay income taxes on all money remitted into Thailand - unless I can PROVE to Somchai at the local Tax Office that the money has already been taxed or is exempt, then we are out of here and will going forward be visiting - for less than 180 days a year. Yes these numbers below are worst case scenarios, but as things stand right now, they are valid assumptions and they iuse the current official taxation tables. Sure there is maybe another 100K of allowances I can 'claim', but they make very little difference when the numbers get bigger. When planning on bringing into Thailand a large amount of money, say 5 million or 10 million Bajht, only an idiot would do so without absolute certainty. This is not a Visa matter that can be easily dealt with one way or the other. If I am hit with income taxes not planned for, I cannot just leave and take my money with me - it is locked in here.

Well said - and if you are accused of being a 'fearmonger' for speaking out and stating your feelings about this matter - then welcome to the club. I have said many things many times about this matter in other posts/threads and my position is very clear and is similar to yourself. Not only is it probably the dumbest thing any Thai Govt has done to Expats, if they do want retired/married Expats to live here and want more to come, it is also the biggest discrimatory thing they have ever done to non-Thais. Imposing income taxes on 'visitors' who bring their own money into the country, clearly shows how little regard that the Thai Govt has for Expats. When the Govt Electricity Agency recently announced a big increase in their prices next year, the Thai PM immediately jumped all over them. But when the Govt Taxation Agency announces that they are going to tax the pensions and savings of all Expats who live in Thailand, when they bring their money into Thailand, there is nothing - crickets. This is despite the massive amount of social media 'coverage' this matter is getting ever since the announcement in September. If I have an income tax burden imposed on myself that ends up being what it looks like it will be, then we are leaving Thailand for sure. I am lucky - we dont own a house and we are not 'locked' into Thailand - I feel sorry for those that are and who also feel 'insulted' and 'offended' by this possible income tax imposition. All of the Visa impositions are going to remain, but they are not going to give me any additional legal rights, or Govt services, and all the other racist crap like dual-pricing they impose on me will remain. And let me tell you, my Thai Wife is a lot more angry about it - but being Thai she just keeps that to her self and me. Maybe for <20K a year I will stay - but only for the Thai Wife and Family. But if my calculations are correct and they demand I pay income taxes on all money remitted into Thailand - unless I can PROVE to Somchai at the local Tax Office that the money has already been taxed or is exempt, then we are out of here and will going forward be visiting - for less than 180 days a year. Yes these numbers below are worst case scenarios, but as things stand right now, they are valid assumptions and they iuse the current official taxation tables. Sure there is maybe another 100K of allowances I can 'claim', but they make very little difference when the numbers get bigger. When planning on bringing into Thailand a large amount of money, say 5 million or 10 million Bajht, only an idiot would do so without absolute certainty. This is not a Visa matter that can be easily dealt with one way or the other. If I am hit with income taxes not planned for, I cannot just leave and take my money with me - it is locked in here.

You gotta stop thinking all Expats are like yourself - we certainly are not. We rent a 4br house - we recently bought a used Honda CRV - we travel around Thailand a lot - we spend a lot of money with Thais. Our annual living budget in 1 Million Baht - plus in a few years I planned to buy a new car - and maybe one day we will buy a house. Many Expats also have Thai families with kids that they support - we dont have kids but we do help out others. There are lots of Expats just me who dont rent a small room in Pattaya or Patong or Bangkok and smoke weed and chase bar girls.

Maybe true. But 300K Expats bring in and/or spending an average of 1 Million Baht a year - is worth 300 Billion Baht. That number equates to 6 million Chinese tourists - who spend an average of 50K Baht on a trip to Thailand.

The 'official' Covid deaths as a percentage of Infected people is as follows: 6,948,577 Total Deaths 699,006,517 Total Infections Covid Death Rate equals: 0.994% COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer (worldometers.info) However, there are many assumptions that can be made that could reduce the death rate, as taken from the numbers above. Maybe many of those deaths recored officially were not only because of Covid, but because of comorbidity reasons (cancer, heart disease, etc.). Likewise annual seasonal flu deaths were often attributed to Covid - average about 500K per year - so over 2 years of Covid maybe 1 million. Additionaly, many infections that were overcome naturally and/or due to the vaccinations, and were not reported officially. But even with a 'liberal' interpretation of those factors, the Covid death rate would still be massively over the annual death rate from the seasonal flu, which is about 500K of about 1,000 million infections each year, equalling a death rate of 0.05%. Influenza (Seasonal) (who.int) And of course, the authorities will claim that the Covid death toll was massively reduced due to the vaccines and isolation. Impossible to prove that is a false statement, but it is clear that many things were done very wrongly - especially isolating everyone and crashing the world's economy for over 2 years which will take another 2-3 years to recover (maybe more). If Covid is as infectious as the seasonal flu, then all that isolation and economic disaster stopped 300 million getting infected, and therefore about 29 million people dying over a 2 year period. There was about 55 million who died in 2019 - which equates to 110 million over 2 years.

There are two camps of opinions from tax 'experts' at this time :- 1. The rule applies to all income received in the past, and tax is incurred when it is remitted into Thailand after 1 January 2024. 2. The rule applies only to income received after 1 January 2024, and tax is incurred whenever it is remitted into Thailand. Like everyone, I am hoping that number 2 is the Thai RD interpretation and that statement is published soon. Then it becomes (for many) an issue about a Govt Pension received after 1 Jan 2024, which is technically income and taxable when remitted into Thailand. Hopefully, the Thai RD will declare all Govt Pensions from DTA countries as tax exempt, including when that money is remitted into Thailand. Otherwise, Expats on Govt Pensions will be required to lodge a tax return and claim the tax exemption, under their own applicable DTA.

That looks good - but what is the source? Is it from Thai RD ??

There are two clear ways to read this statement and what it means (that I can see): 1. Assesable income earned before January 1, 2024 will not be taxed in the future (I do not think it means that); 2. Assessable income earned and remitted into Thailand before January 1, 2024 will not be taxed. The question is when is income tax on assessable income incurred - it is incurred when it is remitted into Thailand. IMO it means - remit the money into Thailand before January 1, 2024 and it will not be taxed. Clear as mud.

Correct - and therein lies the problem and the misinformation and the opinion - and why some think this is not a problem when it is. The lawyer in the video I posted makes clear and precise explanations in response to 'real world' situations, as put to him by the interviewer. Those statements you quote are made not is repsonse to examples, but as general statements of opinion and may not apply to you/me. In the past, a Thailand tax resident did not have to pay income taxes on earnings received overseas, unless that money was remitted into Thailand in the current taxation year. Those using that loophole would prove that the money was earned in the past (over 1 year ago) and no tax was payable. The onus was on the Thai RD to prove the money was brought into Thailand the same year it was earned. It was under this 'loophole' that the Thai RD did not pursue money being remitted into Thailand by Thais and Expats, because the onus was on them to prove the money was earned in that same taxation year - so they let it go. That was the rule for 38 years - and it had been verified in the Courts. It is extremely likely that this rule change will be challenged in Court - but who knows how long that will take and there is no guarantee of success - the Govt needs money. The rule change now means the complete opposite - all money remitted into Thailand is now assessible as taxable income and the onus is now on the taxpayer to prove (to the Thai RD) that the money earned in the past has already had taxes applied to it, or that it is exempt from taxation in Thailand. As the lawyer said, that is not what the Thai RD intended as they are after the 'big fish' who pay no income tax overseas and also none in Thailand, under the current loophole. What is needed is a clear statement from Thai RD detailing what is exempt and what is not exempt from this new rule change - particularly for Expats, but also for Thais who have savings held overseas, and those sending money home to their families from overseas, and may other situations this new rule now catches out. The change by Thai RD to this long standing rule means that all money remitted into Thailand after Jan 1 2024 is technically 'assessible', and the onus is on the taxpayer to prove otherwise. The problem the Thai RD has in making any clarification, is that they dont want to make any exemptions that will allow those they are targetting (the big fish) to also get out of the net using those exemptions. Remember - one rule change 2 years ago created all the cannabis shops, and they are still trying to fix that. Thailand has a history of changes not well thought through or planned, that led to unintended consequences. Hopefully this change will be addressed and resolved quickly, but while I am hoping they will do that, I am not depending on them to do that - I am planning ahead.

Thank you mate. I hope that people realise this situation is very serious, and dont just ignore it thinking it will go away, or believe the posters who keep claiming this will be OK - have another beer/girl. This might be resolved by Thai RD soon - and it might not be - but either way it is very serious. Taxation is serious - way more serious than Immigration issues.

This video spelt it all out in detail. You obviously missed the main points made very clearly by the lawyer. He stated that this is real and it is happenning, and unless the Thai RD changes things, this is going to happen. It is not a matter of 'maybe' wait and see - it is now the rule - and that rule starts on January 1 2024 - 24 days from now. Under the rule change all income earned now (including pensions) and all income earned in the past and is now savings or super funds, is now 'assessable income' when remitted into Thailand after Jan 1 2024 and subject to income taxes. How an Expat tax resident can 'claim' tax credits or exemptions under the various DTAs Thailand has, is extremely difficult and cannot be done using the standard pro-forma. The lawyer stated that Expats will probably have to engage a tax accountant/lawyer to do that, because it is an extremely complex matter that is currently done businesses. He stated that he hopes the Thai RD soon clarifies things, because they have been approached by a lot of 'representative bodies and people' - he believes that the Thai RD greatly under-estimated the impact of this decision. There are several posters on this thread who have made a lot of posts like myself going way back to the start - Mike, Dogmatix, Stat, Jerry etc. - and although we have not always agreed, we discuss our views openly and freely. We are not fearmongers as you keep accusing us of being. And as I have said before, Thailand made one rule change about mary-jane (broccili) 2 years ago and now there are shops everywhere selling the stuff and they are still tryting to close them down. This income tax rule change is looking very much like another one of those, and anyone stating that this is not a problem as all will be OK, is either greatly under-estimating the problem, or is being obstuse and argumentative. As the lawyer said, lets hope the Thai RD clarifies things quickly and eases all the concerns they have created - because if they dont this will be bad. But I note that you dont care - all you want to do is abuse other posters for talking about this matter - you are IMO argumentative and abusive with nothing to contribute. BLOCKED.

I feel exactly the same as you - and will be doing the same going forward. As things stand now the chances of me remitting money to buy a property in Thailand - ZERO. As things stand now chance that we will move out of Thailand - PROBABLY. My plan is to remit into Thailand additional money before 31 December 2023 (before new rule takes effect). From 1 January 2024 I will remit into Thailand only my Pension payments - no bank savings or superannuation funds. Some time during 2024 this will be cleared up - one way or the other. If cleared up the 'right way' - no income taxes on pensions, savbings or super funds - we will stay in 2025. If Thailand applies income taxes on all my money remitted into Thailand - we will be leaving Thailand before June 2025. And that is not just me talking - my Thai wife is very angry - if there was an election today she would vote Junta. Keep in mind that the MFP are more 'progressive' and they will need much more taxation to pay for their social programs. I note that MFP has not said a word about this issue - will they tax Expats money when in power?

WRONG

Be careful - get professional advice before doing that. As detailed by the lawyer in that video, even though you are not a tax resident in Thailand you can be hit for any money you earned in Thailand (such as for 90 days stay). What that means is that being a non tax resident is not a blanket get out of jail card. The Thai RD could well decide (under the current definitions) that you did that to deliberately avoid paying income taxes, and maybe that gives them the right to tax you. I would get professional advice before taking that strategy involving such a large amount of money.

Exactly - all up in the air - but as it stands - yes that money is taxable income under the new interpretation, and under a DTA the person must lodge a tax return and prove they have either paid taxes already or the money is exempt. Good luck with that - especially if the Thai RD disagrees and Somchai (Thailand Tax Officer delegate in your local Office) decides you will have to pay income taxes on the money you brough into Thailand. And I agree with you - no wise person should consider business investment or retirement in Thailand, as things stand now. Hopefully the Thai RD will clarify all of this mess soon.