TroubleandGrumpy

Wow - this is definitely going to be BIG and it is no Joke. Massive flow on issues will come out of this. If Big Joke is clean then those in power are dirty and they are desperate to stop him becomming the big boss bacause he will get rid of them all - and the PM will fall for having sided with Torsak Sukvimol against Surachate Hakparn. This aint going to go away.

QUOTE- The following persons need to apply for TIN: 1. A person liable to personal income tax who : (1) Does not have a PIN under the civilian registration law; i.e. a foreigner, non-juristic ordinary partnership, non-juristic body of persons, or undivided estate. etc. IMO a person is liable to personal income tax when they meet all the criteria and have assesable income (income that is taxable) - meaning that they have to pay income tax. Assessable income means income that is taxable under this Chapter. That being Chapter 3 - Income Tax. Chapter 3 Income Tax | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th) I interpret that to mean that if I am not liable to pay personal income tax if I do not have income that is taxable due to DTA or any other excemption, allowance or exclusion in the Revenue Code. Therefore I do not have to get a TIN - and I suspect many Expats would be in the same boat.

Some people have quoted the following sentence in the Revenue Code assuming it applies to Pensions (Govt social welfare payments), but IMO it does not refer to pension as we understand it in the west, but to a form of salary payment. If anyone can find exactly the Section that refers to Government Pensions being taxable income that would be appreciated. Section 40 Assessable income is income of the following categories including any amount of tax paid by the payer of income or by any other person on behalf of a taxpayer. (1) Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment. The word pension in the contact above does not refer to social welfare payments that we Expats call 'pensions'. It refers to people being employed and receiving their salary in the form of a pension (regular scheduled payment) or any other form of money as listed above. Section 38_64 | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

Worthwhile providing the following information from the TRD Revenue Code - whioch I again advise is NOT for taxpayers, but is the TRD 'bible' that they use when they are assessing a person/company for tax obligations. There is a few of these categories below that apply to myself - hopefully they and maybe a few others will apply to Expats generally. Section 42 states "The assessable income of the following categories shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation:" (1) Per diem or transport expenses that an employee or a person performing work spends honestly, necessarily, exclusively and wholly in carrying out his duties. (2) Transport expenses and traveling per diem at the rates prescribed by the Government in the Royal Decree governing the rates of transport expenses and traveling per diem. (3) The part of traveling expenses paid by the employer to the employee which the employee spent wholly and necessarily in traveling from a different place to take up employment for the first time or for returning to his place of origin after the termination of the employment. However, this exemption shall not cover traveling expenses received by an employee who returns to his place of origin and then takes up employment with the same employer within three hundred fifty five days from the last working day of the previous employment. (4) Where a contract of employment which was bona fide entered into before the entry into force of the Royal Act on Income Tax B.E. 2475 requires that the employer shall pay to the employee upon the termination of employment a single payment of gratuity, fee, commission or bonus, such payment shall be excluded for the purpose of income tax calculation, notwithstanding the whole amount that is paid after the entry into force of the provisions of this Part. (5) Special post allowance, house rent allowance and rent free residence granted to an official of a Thai embassy or consulate abroad. (6) Income from a sale or discount received from purchase stamp duties or government postage stamps. (7) Board or committee meeting allowance and teaching and examination fees paid by the government or public educational institutions. (8) The following interest: (a) Interest from Government savings lotteries, or interest on demand deposit with the Government Savings Bank; (b) Interest on savings deposit with a cooperative; (c) Interest on savings deposit with a bank in Thailand which is repayable on demand; only in the case where the total amount of interest received by any taxpayer does not exceed one thousand baht throughout tax year, in accordance with the rules, procedures and conditions as prescribed by the Director- General.8910 8R.D.No.301 B.E. 2539 9N.DG.IT.No.55 10N.DG.IT.No.64 (9) Sale of a movable property acquired from inheritance or acquired not in a commercial or profitable manner, but not including ship or vessel with freight of six tons or over, steam boat or motor boat with freight of five tons and over, or floating house. (10) Income derived from an inheritance.11 11R.C.A.A. (No. 40) B.E. 2558 (11) Award for the purpose of education or technical research, government lottery and government savings prize, prize given by government authority in contest or competition to a person other than a professional contestant or competitor, or reward paid by government authority for the purpose of prevention of wrongdoing. (12) Special pension, special gratuity, inherited pension or inherited gratuity. (13) Compensation against wrongful acts, amount derived from insurance or from funeral assistance scheme. (14) (Repealed by R.C.A.A. (No.39) B.E. 2557) (15) Income of a farmer from sale of rice cultivated by the farmer and/or his family. (16) Income derived from an undivided estate liable to tax under Section 57 Bis. (17) Income prescribed for exemption by Ministerial Regulations.12 12M.R.No.126 No.201 B.E. 2539 (18) Red Cross lottery prize, income from a sale or discount received from purchase of Red Cross lotteries. (19) Interest received under Section 4 Decem.13 13M.R.No.161 B.E. 2526 (20) (Repealed by R.C.A.A. (No.26) B.E. 2525 S.5) (21) (Repealed by R.C.A.A. (No.29) B.E. 2534 S.6) (22) (Repealed by E.A.R.C. (No.14) B.E. 2529 S.8) (23) Income from sale of investment units in a mutual fund. (24) Income of a mutual fund. (25) Compensatory benefit received by the taxpayer from the social security fund under the law governing social security. (26) Income derived from the transfer of ownership or possessory right in an immovable property without any consideration to a legitimate child, not including an adopted child, but only for the portion not exceeding twenty million baht per a legitimate child throughout the tax year. (R.C.A.A. (No. 43) B.E. 2559 which has come into force as from 1 February B.E. 2559) (27) Income derived from maintenance and support or gifts from ascendants, descendants or spouse, but only for the portion not exceeding twenty million Baht throughout the tax year. (28) Income derived from maintenances and support under moral purposes or gifts received in a ceremony or on occasions in accordance with custom and tradition from persons who are not ascendants, descendants or spouse, but only for the portion not exceeding ten million baht throughout the tax year. (29) Income derived from gifts whereby a donor has expressed his or her intention or appeared to have an intention of using the gifts for religious, educational or public benefit activities in accordance with the rules and conditions as prescribed by a Ministerial Regulation.

Section 83/2 and 89/3 refer to VAT Tax and obligations thereunder - nothing to do with income taxes as far as I can see.

Well said - there is far too much ambiguity and uncertainty to state with any degree of certainty that all retired/married Expats must get a TIN and lodge a tax return. Certainly employed Expats, and those running a business, or those earning money overseas (salary, rental, etc.), do have to lodge a tax return. The ambiguity and uncertainty over how TRD will apply the rule change to retired/married Expats who are bringing in either Pensions, Savings or other funds, is still very uncertain.

That is OK if you do not wish to discuss your statement - but I disagree that Expats should get a TIN and lodge a tax return. Not because of the rules - but because of practice and precendent. 30-40 million Thais do not lodge tax returns even though they obviously earn over 60K/120K a year. A 2000 baht fine is not a problem - worth the decision. I dont want to debate or argue the matter either - but I do want your post responded to so that others can see some people disagree with that assertion and why. IMO the best thing to do for any Expat is to avoid the TRD for at least 2-3 years - there is no way Somchai in the local TRD Office (the returns are assesed in each Province) will know anything about DTAs from 60+ countries, and just like Immigration Officers Somchai in TRD has a lot of arbitrary powers and authority. IMO Expats are best advised to stay away from him/them. I will just add to this statement the fact that at the recent meeting with TRD, they had no idea regarding DTAs as they had never utilised them before. TRD has not provided training and the tools to their Officers to be able to deal with Expats and DTAs and all the other complications. Their previous rule/model meant they did not need to know any of that because it was just accepted that money transferred was earned in a previous year. TRD are not prepared - they are totally unprepared and are ignorant about DTAs. Stay away from them IMO.

Perhaps - but if I wanted to avoid scrutiny andf paying income taxes on illegal/laundered money, all I have to do is buy an LTR and I am exempt from income taxes. That is against the global obligations to reduce/illiminate illegal/laundered money exchanges between countries.

Good Luck with that.

Like Thailand was 30 years ago??

Thailand is losing out big time - those at the top end know and are desperate for massive tourism and white elephant public works projects. That BS maybe worked for China for a logn tiem, but that has run its course and the inevitable economic and social decline has happened - same thing coming to Thailand. You cannot have almost 10 years of Military rule, including 3 years of Covid, and not be severely damaged. The Junta ran the surplus dry and crashed what economic growth there was in the decades before them - not deliberate IMO - incompetence. "Thailand's economy recorded an average growth rate of 1.9% in the decade to 2022, below the 4.4% average for the Asia-Pacific region." Thailand Economic Growth (GDP, ann. var. %) - FocusEconomics (focus-economics.com) Malaysia and Vietnam and Indonesia are eating away at Thailand. Malaysia is taking the high end manufacturing, Vietnam and Indoneisa are taking the low end manufacturing, and they are all taking a chuck out of the tourism sector. TAT will never publish this, but in 2023 there were 26 million tourists into Malaysia - 2 million more than into Thailand (24 million). That is the first time in a long time that anyone in SEAsia has received more tourists than Thailand - and that trend is only going to continue IMO. And here is the kicker - Malaysia received 12.6 Million tourists from Singapore in 2023 (real high end big spending tourists) - Thailand received 1.9 million from Singapore. Malaysia Ranked Most Visited Southeast Asian Country in 2023; Indonesia Ranked 5th - Life En.tempo.co Thailand is in big and very serious trouble - the big end of town know this - that was a major factor in why MFP were blocked and why Srettha was selected as PM - to try and grow the economy and increase tourism (and save their fortunes). Maybe things will turn around in 2024, but IMO the endemic lack of planning and short sightedness of Thais is not going to make that easy. The natural inbuilt advantage they had over other SEAsian countries 15-20 years ago has evaporated. The opportunities to place any large scale manufacturing in SEAsia now reside more in Malaysia, Vietnam and Indonesia - and their costs and complications are a lot less. IMO Thailand is in the declining stage of their economic development - and I cannot see any real good prospects of future growth - unless you count more Chinese and Russian tourists. Likewise, and the main subject of this thread - Expats are less and less keen to work or retire in Thailand. I selected Thailand back in 2010 for all its advantages over Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia, and Singapore. None of those advantages remain today - and I think it now costs more to get a long term 'special' retirement Visa in Thailand than in Singapore - gotta check that out more. The standrad Thaio Visa is cheaper, but the far better Singapore Retirement Visa is like the LTR Visa in Thailand.

And therein lies the rub - TRD is not at all prepared at all to deal with many thousands of claims made under DTAs. IMO their default position for Somchai in the local TRD Office will be to deny and impose income taxes based on the total money advised in the rerturn as remitted into Thailand. I have previously stated what happens if TRD makes an arbitrary decision - you have SFA ability to challenge that - and you must pay whatever Somchai decides within 7 days and (maybe) you will get a refund if you win in the Appeal Tribunal or Court (good luck). You can be fully informed and legally represented and argue and fight and complain - but IMO the best strategy is to be informed and avoid if at all possible, interacting with TRD - at least for the next 2-3 years.

Was that money income or savings - if savings then not taxable. But maybe not taxable anyway even if income - but who is it taxable against. IMO it is only taxable against the GF/Wife if it is taxable (savings is not) - because she received the money - it was not sent to your own account. Is that a gift - it is (up to 20 million baht) if she is a wife (10 million for close family members). You are in Hong Kong - do not be in Thailand for 179+ days betwen Jan 1 and Dec 31 and you are not a tax resident - no taxes payable from overseas remittances.

Yes indeed - my read is the same outcome - Thaksin will get rid of the LTR exemption as soon as possible. It is also my read that the LTR exemption would be viewed as being in breach of the international obligations Thailand has signed up to, one of them being this change regarding taxaing overseas incomes. Thailand is obliged under those obligations to stop taxation evasion and illegal money laundering. Lets face it, the LTR could be easily bought by a person who illegal wishes to avoid taxation on international money transfers.

Nothing less than I expected - TRD has no 'real world' understanding and working knowledge of the complications of DTAs. Hopefully the head office will provide an answer to that question - as well as detailed explanations of all matters related to using a DTA as an Expat is Thailand - but I do not expect that will be done anytime soon.

Mike that is your call and I 100% support your decision to do that. In the end we all must do what is right for ourselves and not take upon ourselves to do something that is beyond our capabilities and not worth the efforts involved. As I said to you a few months ago - you have been trying to herd cats and that is just not possible. Having said that I am sorry but I have no intention of making any updates to the tax guide you wrote - as I said many times, trying to do that and forcing everyone to agree with me and what I have written or go away is not something I will ever do. However, I cannot speak for stat, Jim or others like Dogm and many others - perhaps one of them will want to do the impossible. My advice going forward, is if you are ever in such a situation again or you do decide (again) to make a comeback, then rather than trying to force people to comply with and agree with your interpretation, to remove all wording regarding that point - until confirmation is provided by the TRD as to what interpretation is accurate.

Same thing ourselves whenever we did visit a Thai island in the past - the prices are ridiculous. IMO the people on those islands are of the view that tourists are to be ripped off - not that there is any difference all over the world. But in Thailand there is very little (if any) control by authorities to at least try to limit to ripping off. I can remember Prayut tryng to stop the taxi mafia in Phuket ripping off tourists after they had just started to return to the island during Covid. They basically told him to go fornicate himself - just like they do to anyone that tries to 'control' them. That attitude is rampant in Thailand - especially in the islands. Years ago I was talking to a Thai bloke at golf in Chiang Mai, and he said something like - "Thais are always ripping each other off, why should we not rip off Falangs when they are happy to pay stupid money". Fair enough point.

Your 'very clear interpretation 'needs to be clearly caveated that you (and I) are NOT a tax experts and not qualified to give taxation advice. Unfortunately some people think comments made by yourself and some others is that of a qualified expert - and they may follow that advice, and then if it goes all pear shaped they might sue you/AN. On the point at hand - I will state this yet again. There are 10s of millions of Thais that do not lodge tax returns, but they earn over the minimum technical requirement as you note. I will state that perhaps many of them after deductions allowances etc do not have any income tax to pay - maybe. But they have received the income level you claim is absolute - and yet TRD does nothing about that - it is a well known fact. Any attempt to clamp down on and fine Expats who dont file, will probably result in (besides Expats quitting the country) in human rights and/or discrimination complaints by Expats groups. If the TRD clamps down on ALL Thais then Expats will possibly be caught up in the net - but if they target Expats in particular, the blowback will be extreme.

That says it all - nothing more needs to be said. Total BS.

Total BS - sounds like a woke teenager/female - but not in an English country - obviously.

Yeh - one of them being they aint married and they dont like (and/or sick of) the khrapp Thai men put women through.

Could I also ask, who exactrly is entitled to claim VAT refunds when leaving Thailand. Is someone who stays only 1-2 months of a 3 months visiting family Visa entitled to claim?

Calm down George - I was agreeing with you and your response to that other troll who thinks deaths are funny. My advice - back it down a few notches - you are getting far too angry about something you cannot change - and stop throwing punches at your friends or you will eventually have none.

All that plus here you will not be reported for 'unwarranted sexual advances' or get video'd and put on social media and labelled a 'sexual predator'. Young men are just not approaching young women in the west like they used to do - the downsides are horrendous - social and work. For the older blokes (like me) if you are looking for a 'partner up' and see how it goes girl - then look for the older (40s) girls in those places - they will be either married/taken or they will be available and keen if you are looking OK.

I agree - ignore the trolls. The problem in Thailand, unlike most other places and who cares there anyway, is that here they get away with it and then open a new one - and on and on and on it goes. That is why nowadays the 'owner' is never actually the owner - they use someone (usually in the broad family) and once it is set up they pull back and take in the cash - pushing the 'owner' for more and more profits.