Jingthing

Well, IF you believe this firm, then I think I have now found quite clear information on the IRA/401K exemption question. Must be savings in the bank on December 31, 2023 ONLY SAVINGS in the bank. IRAs/401Ks are definitely NOT savings in the bank. This firm says they are seen as pensions by TR. Accessible income when withdrawn and transferred (unfortunately!). Episode 7: Pre-2024 savings explained Of course it's possible other firms and/or TR has a different opinion, but frankly it ain't looking good for that exemption for U.S. retirement accounts. Another crappy thing about the treatment of U.S. retirement accounts is that unlike non retirement investments, you can't use cost basis to only be liable for the capital gains (if any). Instead you're dealing with the full amount of withdrawals. For example, withdrawal 10K USD from your IRA, transfer that to Thailand, that's 10K USD of Thailand tax accessible income. That 10K might have been from the sale of one stock in your IRA where the capital gain was 1K within the IRA, but still you're in for the full 10K.

I hope you're right. Except for from you, EVERYTHING that I've read about this issue says you're wrong. Retirement account balances are NOT INCOME. They are retirement INVESTMENT VEHICLES. By your logic the balance in a taxable brokerage account (stocks and bonds) on December 31, 2023 would also be not accessible the same as money in the bank. But such accounts are definitely NOT treated as you think IRAs and 401Ks are. You see that's the thing -- the information on non retirement investments like stocks and bonds is much more clear. I understand why there is still controversy about IRAs and 401Ks. Which is why I and all other retired Americans with such accounts would benefit from a definitive ruling. Your subjective opinion, with all respect, is not that. How much of the vehemence of your opinion on this is wishful thinking?

You're missing that IRAs and 401ks are not bank accounts. While not exactly pensions by US definition, my current understanding is that TR classes them as PENSIONS and sadly not exempt under the DTA as social security is.

You're totally wrong. https://theconversation.com/the-election-is-over-but-what-is-a-lame-duck-anyway-242377 The 2024 election has finally ended. What happens now? There’s a 2½-month period between Election Day and Inauguration Day. It’s commonly known as the “lame-duck” period, when the outgoing president still holds official power but their successor has been chosen and is waiting to take the reins. Donald Trump is constitutionally barred from a third term in office by the 22nd Amendment, so he will be a lame duck from his first day in office, though his successor will not be known until 2028.

That makes sense but I suppose but I was kind of getting at INTENTIONS based on practical realities. It would be hard to know how any particular office would respond if audited and you explained what you did and why and had a record. But yeah better not to try that. Cheers.

The previous year's income being exempted when transferred in the current year is exactly what they changed already! The December 31, 2023 thing for savings exemption is the last time that works as it has been changed.

Of course, because it's an anti-democracy pro fascist movement or pro autocracy movement for the easily triggered. I recall interviews with maga crowds during the campaign circus asking the cult members --- would you choose Harris or Putin? Always Putin. American democracy is in deep peril.

Thanks, but that was only one of my questions and probably so obvious that I shouldn't have asked it. It's basically about mixing up the source account which I'm pretty sure is very common thing for people to do. The trickiest part was my question that basically asked if I quickly moved Thai accessible income out of the bucket account (domestically abroad), could I delay that amount from being accounted as already in the bucket account (FIFO) until a later date of my choice?

No. It is you that doesn't understand. Don’t Listen to Steve Bannon. Trump Will Be a Lame Duck, not a Third-Termer | Washington Monthly

Well, at least the upcoming Musk regime won't be boring!

So does Trump. DUH. That is, if he follows the constitution. In his case, a big IF.

To the guy that did the confused emoji, yeah I know!

I guess this is a kind of "first in, first out" question but here goes and I think in general principle relevant to a lot of people. For people who are transferring in ALL totally exempt income from a single source account that only contains totally exempt foreign income, then no worries, and ignore this post. For those of us who will have MIXED sources (some exempt and some Thai tax accessible) the common advice is to SEPARATE the source accounts and to not MIX. But realistically speaking, that will not be practical for many people and they will be MIXING foreign income source accounts with different kinds of money as far as Thai tax accessibility into a single MIXED BUCKET ACCOUNT. So this question is about that. So let's say you have an account with 20K USD completely exempt money and then transfer in 10K of money that will be Thai tax accessible. So first in the 20K exempt, and then later the 10K accessible. Assume consistent Thai tax residency. My understanding (corrections welcome) is that you can go ahead and transfer that 20K (at whatever time you like) but as soon as you start hitting that 10K then and only then is that a tax event for Thailand. But wait. Here's my question. Suppose within a few days of transferring in that 10K (Thai tax accessible) into the foreign source account that you DOMESTICALLY transfer it out in order to make a SEPARATION. Then at a later date, you might decide to move 5K of that 10K back into the source "MIXED BUCKET" account and then when that is transferred AFTER the exempt part then that 5k would be a Thai tax event. In other words, in terms of FIFO, would that kind of timely manipulation (moving the 10K out of the bucket soon after it was moved in) be acceptable to Thai Revenue assuming that you could document that you did that? Obviously not ideal compared to complete clean separation, but I'm still asking. Going further, what if you just SPEND part of the potentially accessible income to tax in Thailand if transferred but spend it outside of Thailand. So you put in 10k, then spend 5K without transferring to Thailand, then that means only 5K potentially accessible if transferred to Thailand, correct?

Thanks again. I wish that was wrong, but I think that was right. I realize there is a lot of questionable info online from "consultants" but I have yet to read one opinion about US IRA "retirement accounts" that would indicate the valuation on December 31, 2023 is at all relevant.

Yes, my current understanding is that the exemption for money saved as of Dec. 31, 2023 (which can be brought in any time going forward) is ONLY for money in personal bank accounts! Not investment accounts. Not pensions (which apparently TR classes IRAs and 401Ks as. So the theory for example that if someone has a balance of 250K USD in their IRA account (Roth or traditional) on Dec. 31, 2023 which is an amount that will fluctuate up and down daily after that date. that that 250K will be exempt as far as Thailand taxation forever seems radically in error (unless it can proven otherwise). My current understanding is this -- the amount withdrawn and then transfered is fully tax accessible in Thailand (following the usual tax residency guidelines). Also for example if a withdrawal was based on selling a stock within your IRA in which case you could document a profit or a loss WITHIN the IRA, that would be totally irrelevant. It would all about the FULL amount withdrawn and transferred. For example, stock sale within the IRA might have a 5K profit. But you withdrew 10K and transferred 10K. The 5K profit within the IRA completely irrelevant. I am open to be corrected and I really wish it was true about the legacy valuation but it really appears to not be the case.

Thank you for the clarification.

chiang mai -- I don't know your nationality. If you happen to be American, I'd like to ask your opinion on a big controversy which has emerged about IRAs (Roth and traditional).

Hi there. Are you saying that money earned and remitted in the same year (if that year is a year in which you are a Thai resident) that it is exempt from Thai tax? If so, that doesn't make any sense at all.

What does he care? He'll be a lame duck.

Yes and no. Trump doesn't actually like doing the president work. He likes the pomp and circumstance and for some reason it doesn't look like Vance is going to be much of a factor, unless he's called to take over.

So are all the dictators and oligarchs in the world.

That makes good sense, but hard for us to know. Another factor is that I opened the account 20 years ago. For a while I was funding it with cash deposits which is a little suspicious, but switched to internal Thai bank transfers, which from what I understand isn't of interest to Thai Revenue.

Well so far they didn't send to everyone (all foreigners or even all U.S. nationals). I assumed they missed me because they had an error in my email address but I both didn't get the email and they did have my correct email address in their system already. Of the three Thai bank accounts I have, Kbank is the least vital to me and I have never transferred money from abroad into it and never plan to. I was interested to comply with the forms as a test run for my other accounts, to understand better what they're up to exactly with this, in case my other banks demand it. For me, it was well worth it to know.

Agreed. You need a separate fund for stuff that happens and the bigger the better. So while it's easy enough to "live" on the 20k, is it really 20K if you factor in that NEEDED fund? Not having a healthy buffer fund is insane.

Didn't need it. Wanted it and can easily afford it. Obviously.