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Here is what I read and my source, dated today, which I posted a link to above, giving the 34 remaining hostages. "After Monday’s rescue, the total number of hostages left in Gaza is 134, Hagari said. Of that number, 130 hostages are from the October 7 attack – with 29 dead and 101 believed to be alive. The other four had been held in Gaza prior to the attack." Israeli forces rescue 2 hostages as airstrikes kill around 100 Palestinians in Rafah (msn.com) How many do you think is left? And what is your source? I have no doubt there could be differences. I doubt if even Hamas knows how many they and their local allies have. And the Israelis might think some of those missing have been taken as hostages, but they were not.

I don't understand what your objection is. I said I "thought" (last read) that there were 34 remaining hostages and 67 dead during this recent hostage recovery. Do you have a source that has different figures than this?

This upcoming IDF attack on Rafah just may be the last step of the culmination the goals of BOTH Hamas and Israel. Here is how that might be the case… Israel may have aided/allowed the Oct 7 terrorist attack to have a reason to invade and Gaza. - There have been reports that Israel may have known about the funding of this attack and allowed them to continue. I don’t necessarily believe these. I don’t think Israel, even the most militant Zionists, would have gone that far, but some do. How Israel Secretly Propped Up Hamas - The New York Times (nytimes.com) - There have also been reports that Israel knew about the preparation for this attack, and did nothing to prevent it. I believe these allegations. Israeli intelligence leak details extent of warnings over Hamas attack | Israel | The Guardian But I believe they did not realize Hamas’ attack would be as widespread and as devastating as it was. I believe if either or both of these are true, Israel may have done this to give them the justification for launching a full-scale bombing and destruction of Gaza, with the end goal of either killing or driving all Palestinians out, or at least gaining complete control of Gaza and forcing a one-state solution. Hamas may have launched their Oct 7 terrorist attack to provoke the Israelis into attacking Gaza. - They also took around 200 hostages. Hamas Took More Than 200 Hostages From Israel. Here’s What We Know. - WSJ All but 34? of those have been recovered at this time. Israeli forces rescue 2 hostages as airstrikes kill around 100 Palestinians in Rafah (msn.com) I believe Hamas did this believing these hostages would be important bargaining chips (or so they thought) in what they hoped would be their negotiations with Israel. - Also, they did this knowing Israel with the IDF would go overboard in their attacks on Gaza, and this would eventually weaken the support they had, up to now, been given by the UN and important allies, like the USA, forcing Israel to negotiate a two-state solution. If I am correct in my assumptions above, both sides have accomplished the first parts of their plan, and it could very likely be the upcoming IDF attack on Rafah that will decide whose plan will succeed in the end.

That's an EXCELLENT question and goes to the heart of this matter. I think NO LIVES LOST on either side would be the only ACCEPTABLE figure to retrieve not only these two hostages but the other 34 also. I think that could be done with an agreement that includes Hamas returning the hostages unharmed for a permanent ceasefire and other agreements on both sides. I've posted my suggested outline for such an agreement before, and it was deleted, so I won't post it again. But I'll say any agreement has to include not only a hostage return and a ceasefire but also a UN peacekeeping force and an eventual two-state solution. And, no more lives lost on either side.

Okay, so whose figures would you believe? The IDFs? How would they know how many were killed? I couldn't find any IDF estimate of numbers killed in an Internet search. They did claim there were two hostages rescued, though. They claimed that over and over and over again, but no mention of how many Palestinian lives that cost . Much like the traffic here on this Topic.

I don't know for sure. Probably from the local health agencies in Rafah. Here is another source that has the same number and quotes that source. At least 67 Palestinians killed in Rafah in wake of Israeli hostage rescue in Gaza | CBC News

What I fear now, as the IDF prepares to invade and devastate Rafah, is what Hamas and its local allies will do with any hostages they still hold. I think there are now 34. These hostages are, as it should be evident, virtually the only bargaining chips Hamas has in its negotiations with the Israelis. The recent recovery of the two hostages cost the lives of about 67 Palestinians (the latest figure from CNN - and no, CNN did not present a breakdown of this number into Hamas militants vs. Palestinian civilians), and, of course, reduced Hamas's bargaining power. I suspect Hamas will start guarding the hostages they still have more tightly. That would mean keeping them in more secure places, which would probably be less accomodating. Also, I wouldn't doubt that Hamas would make some kind of arrangements (I won't suggest them here so I won't be accused of justifying them) to make sure no more hostages can be rescued, even if the IDF does fight their way through the forces and structures that hold them. So far, everything I've predicted (projected) has come true for the most part. I now predict that if the IDF moves forward with their plans for this onslaught of Rafah, the number of hostages will indeed be reduced, but not in the way the Israelis would like.

Read my reply to Morch just above this one about this same subject (the content of my posts).

Yes, I do understand and see the entire picture. You don't, and that, and at least the following four reasons, is why you believe I am supportive of Hamas. 1. The first and most potent is that you are so biased in favor of the Zionist and/or Israeli positions that you judge any post that questions or challenges that perspective is supportive of Hamas and/or Palestinian positions. 2. The second is that there is no need for me to post supportively of the Zionist and/or Israeli positions since you and several others constantly deluge this Topic with those. Most of my posts do try to reveal the other perspective to try to make sure everyone sees both sides. 3. The third is I am not supportive of the Zionist position, which is focused on gaining control of all of the land in question by any means necessary. I am supportive of the more moderate Israeli positions, like wanting the hostages returned unharmed and wanting assurance that there will never be another Oct 7th-like attack, but without relying on the carnage caused by the continuing Zionist-led attacks on Gaza. 4. The fourth is I am not supportive of the Hamas position, which is also focused on gaining control of all of the land in question by any means necessary. I am supportive of the more moderate Palestinian position, which is focused on reaching some agreement with the Israelis on how both of them can live on this same land in peace, which most likely implies some kind of two-state solution.

Yes, I understand. That's why, IMO, you can only see one side. I believe both Hamas and the IDF adjust the numbers to support their cause. Some of that might not be actual lies, but just estimates based of what they believe. For example, how can you really determine if an adult male Palestinian is a militant or civilian? If he has a weapon, the likelihood he is, but even then, he might just be carrying a weapon to protect himself and his family. And, if he doesn't have a weapon, maybe he discarded it to try to seem to be a civilian. If he's shot and killed, Hamas might count him as a civilian and IDF count him as a militant. Who knows? I know you trust IDF and think everything Hamas says is lies, but I tend to believe the truth is always somewhere in the middle.

Who killed the civilians?

Well, the other source of actions, casualties, death, and breakdown (militants vs. civilians) is from the IDF. Why would you trust them more than the Gaza Health Ministry?

What is the matter with you?!! What difference does all this make? I heard the "diversionary tactic" on CNN this morning when I first heard them report on the incident. I've said over and over and over again that we'll have to wait for probably DAYS before we'll have any numbers on the people killed (and maybe the breakdown by categories). Here's the bottom line: - The IDF went into Rafah in Gaza and rescued two hostages; - While doing that, they killed a number of Palestinians. The figures range from "a dozen" to "over 100." How many of those were civilians vs. Hamas fighters, we don't know. Okay?????

This link is not CNN, but it's the first one I saw on my Internet search... Israel Strikes Rafah as Diversion to Rescue Two Hostages: War Live Updates - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

Speculation and deductions are what I do after I watch/read news like this. However, news organizations like CNN report figures from various sources. CNN reported that the Palestinians killed today were a part of the hostage retrieval operation, a diversionary tactic. I didn't hear of any IDF being killed, but there was a report of one being wounded (or hurt somehow). I'm sure there will be many, many more Palestinians killed in Rafah, and undoubtedly some IDF also.

For two reasons: 1. I don't know the breakdown of these numbers by categories, 2. They are still people who were killed. And, all these figures are preliminary ones. We won't get any figures that are somewhat dependable for a couple of days or more.

Okay, then 2:1. That would be about a 67:33 ration, or, if CNN's latest 100-killed number proves to be reasonably accurate, 67 civilians. Then, the ratio of civilians killed to hostages saved is 67:2.

I don't think they are all civilians, but I do think they are all Palestinians. And I do suspect most of them, say 90% or so, are civilians.

I have heard on CNN's TV News that the Palestinian dead could be as many as 60. I have no link for that, but I'm sure those numbers will continue to be made available to us as the day goes by. And anyway, whether it was 10, 20, 40, or 60 makes no difference to the point I am making. That is, many of you on this Topic place no value on the lives of the Palestinians. Sixty dead for two released is okay with you. That, to me, shows your bias and anti-Semitism. Shame on you! Update: CNN in now reporting "over 100" Palestinians killed."

I think everyone ought to make sure they read in this report that includes my emphasis. - "...the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) successfully rescued two male Israeli hostages from the city of Rafah in Gaza, amidst heavy Israeli airstrikes targeting the area. The hostages, identified as Fernando Simon Marman, 60, and Louis Har, 70, were found to be in good medical condition after their rescue and were swiftly transported to an Israeli hospital for further evaluation and care." ...and, "Conflicting reports emerged regarding the casualties from the airstrikes, with figures ranging from 37 to 52 Palestinians killed, including children, according to various sources. The disparity underscores the chaotic and volatile situation on the ground, with Gaza's Hamas-run health ministry condemning the Israeli military's actions as indiscriminate and disproportionate." So, the bottom line is two elderly hostages were rescued and were found to be in good health. The cost for that was 40 to 50 (or more) Palestinians killed, most of them probably civilians. Two apparently well-treated hostages were rescued at the cost of 40 to 50 other people's lives, and many of you on this Topic see this as a reason to celebrate. This is, in essence, a perfect example of your despicable biases.

That's the grimmest option of a one-state solution, and I agree if what you're saying is that neither side will accept a more "sharing" one-state solution or a two-state solution where the land is divided up. And sadly, yes, that's where they seem to be stuck at this time.

And, if what you say is true, then the IDF are the ones that are killing those civilian "shields" - men, women, and children - to get at Hamas. What does that make them? What you and so many other pro-Zionists here on this Topic can't seem to understand or appreciate - feel - is that the Israelis are trying to take complete control of what used to be the Palestinian's homeland, and the Palestinians are trying to get that land back, or at least hold on to what they have left. That's my bottom line on this AseanNow Topic and every Topic related to this awful war.

I answered your question in a "deliberately obvious reply" with a simple four-word sentence. "I really don't know." I then went on to give my opinion on the subject. So, you got the best of both worlds!

I'm only responding to this since you asked me a direct question, and I'm afraid if I don't answer it, you'll keep asking it and reminding me I haven't answered for the next week or so. So, in answer to your question above, my response is: "I really don't know. Hamas may have warned the civilians in Gaza, and the citizens in Gaza may have known all along that they have always been under threat of attack by Israel. But, even those who were aware of this did not, from what I can gather, have any other place they could go. In any event, those Palestinians killed, wounded, and displaced in Gaza by the IDF were, indeed, casualties of this war, whether they were unwilling civilians or willing Hamas fighters."

On both sides... Civilians are killed without their willing participation in the hostilities. Soldiers are killed during their willing participation in the hostilities. What difference does this make? Deaths are deaths.