WDSmart

I'm not "antisemitic." (And just FYI - "Semite" includes BOTH Hebrews and Arabs, not just Hebrews. Look up its definition online.) I am anti-Hamas and anti-Zionist. I'm not really either pro-Palestine or pro-Israel, but between those two, I am more sympathetic to the Palestinian point of view, which is to regain control their homeland which is being taken over by Israelis.

Yes, and thanks for expressing your views. Unfortunately, Bkk Brian is not capable of doing that when reacting to posts with which he disagrees. All he apparently is able to do is to revert to calling names.

I agree war crimes were committed by Hama.s and am sure also by Israel in response.

And it's still nonsense. Morch, Keep watching the news and see what happens - unless Israel's allies put enough political pressure on her to stop before that, or Hamas' allies put enough military pressure.

Yes, civilian death and destruction are part of any war. Would you include that as "acceptable" concerning what happened on 7 Oct? I wouldn't. And I don't consider the way the IDF is destroying Gasa as "acceptable" either. What I meant by a "few" IDF soldiers, is that there has not, to my knowledge, been a complete invasion of Gaza (yet) by the IDF. And again I have to point out that I have from the beginning said that atrocities have been committed by BOTH sides. Do you agree with that? Do you agree that the IDF has committed atrocities, or not?

Bkk Brian, If you're still listening (reading), again, it seems like you just don't agree with what I've posted. So, why is that "trolling"? Here is my reasoning (although I did post a more detailed explanation of the terms I use earlier): Civilians: Israelis/Palestinians Militants: Zionists/Hamas - both of these factions have the one goal of gaining/regaining complete control of Israel/Palestine, and will use any means to accomplish that, including atrocities. IMO, the IDF right now is being lead by Zionists who will continue to anhialate Gaza until all Palestinians are driven out.

Bkk Brian, You've called me this before, and before, I asked you what you meant by it. What characteristic of my posts makes you determine I'm a "troll" or I'm "trolling"? To me, it just seems like you assign that to posts with which you disagree

Morch, I wish you would read my posts more carefully before you reply to them. I numbered my replies as: 1) Israel should not use Hama's recent atrocities to justify their actions now. And, 2) Palestinians have suffered similar atrocities during the long war with Israel for their country. I didn't say Hamas should be able to justify its actions now based on what it has suffered in the past anymore than Israel should be able to justify them. My point is they are BOTH guilty of atrocities in the past and currently, and BOTH are using them to justify their responses. The Zionist faction in the IDF are the leaders whose goal is the complete and absolute occupation of Palestine, and the driving out of all non-Jews, or at best tolerating them as some lower-class citizens.

The atrocities that "are being committed" by the IDF are the killing of civilians and the destruction of entire blocks of buildings in Gaza. This has been done by rockets and artillery. There have been few IDF soldiers who have invaded Gaza (to my knowledge). The atrocities which "have been committed" by the IDF (Zionists) over the 100+ year period these two peoples have been at war include all the atrocities cited in my original post, which include murder, torture, and rape.

Concerning Isreal's retaliatory actions to the 07 Oct Hamas attacks and atrocities (which I do deplore), there are, IMO, two things that must be considered: 1. The atrocities Hamas committed on 07 Oct cannot be used to justify the retaliatory atrocities now being committed by the Zionist factions in control of the IDF in Israel against the Palestinian civilians. 2. This attack by Hamas did not come from nowhere. It is just a continuation of a 100+ year-long struggle between the Palestinians and Zionist Israelis for what is now called Israel (but what used to be called Palestine). And during that long period of struggle, the Israeli Zionist forces have committed every type of atrocity (murder, torture, rape, etc.) of Palestinian civilians, as was committed by Hamas on 07 Oct. Israel: 50 Years of Occupation Abuses | Human Rights Watch (hrw.org)

Morch, Sorry, I forgot one term which is used differently by you and me: Trolling/Commenting

Morch, Here's how I use and equate these terms as related to the factions in this conflict: - Militants: Zionist/Hamas - Regular Citizens: Israelis/Palestinians - Country: Israel/Palestine - Race: Hebrew/Arab - Religions: Jewish/Muslim I am not a Hamas supporter/apologist. But where we differ is I am also not a Zionist supporter/apologist. I see this conflict as not being just "black and white." I see it as a product of both sides' goals and methods, and both sides have historically and recently used methods to achieve their goals which I judge to be deplorable. I would normally say that I hope cooler heads on both sides will prevail and a reasonable agreement can be reached, but in this case, I do not think that is possible and will never happen.

And, you could ask what the Zionists did (or failed to do) that contributed to the Hamas attack on Israel on 7 Oct.

Morch, No, I'm not saying opinion and fact are on equal footing. What I'm saying about "fact" is just because you read it on CNN or FOX doesn't make it a fact. As you admitted, these outlets are biased and present different versions of the "facts." What I'm saying about "opinion" is that most everyone has their own opinion of things. And it is that opinion that I am interested in. I might not agree with it and respond with my own opinion, but that's what I think discussions are all about.

I am the polar opposite of Alex Jones. I am a far, far-left liberal.

Morch, I made my point above. I can see and read all the new reports myself. What I can't do, and what I HOPE is the purpose of Asean Forums, is to discuss the issues with others and hearing (reading) what their point of view is on these subjects.

And what do you accept as something "factual"? Something you've read on social media or something you've seen on TV? And, isn't presenting your "views" and opinions on a topic what discussions are all about?

Bkk Brian, THANKS for your reply. I now understand...kind of. None of my comments were about Wanchai, and he and his situation are the main topics of this thread. As you know (I think), my initial involvement in this thread was just a short reply to someone's comments that "Hamas should be eliminated." My short response was just, "So should Zionists." Nothing more than that. All of these comments then spiraled out from there. And, I could argue that the very first sentence of the article, which is "The resulting conflict between Isreal and Hamas..." does leave the door open, maybe, for comments about that conflict. Am I wrong there? Is that going too far "off topic"? And, please answer the first part of my question above: "Why do you consider my posts "trolling"? Thanks...Bill!

And you think that Zionists have not done all the things you've mentioned above to the Palestinians in the past? You are a Zionist enabler and greatly disappoint me.

Yes, and I believe that "clear difference" is that Hamas represents people who are mainly Muslim, whereas Zionists represent people who are mainly Jewish. And the big difference there is the US, UK, and most other Western countries have a large population of Christians who know their religion has evolved from Judaism. That's the bottom line of the "clear difference" in the way these two groups are characterized for me, and all the terms used to describe the features and activities of each group reflect that: terrorists/patriots, hostages/prisoners, slaughter/collateral damage, etc.

I compare them with Hamas and ISIS, at least the most radical factions of Zionists. Here is the Oxford Languages Dictionary definition of "Zionism" [with my remarks in brackets]: "a movement for originally the re-establishment and now the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel [but used to be Palestine]. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann." This has been done, for the most part, with the approval of the United Nations, but certainly not the approval of the Palestinians who were the primary occupiers of that land before all this started.

Goat! What are you doing? You're actually reading the posts and commenting on what is in them instead of making something up to demean someone with! Wow!

Bkk Brian, If you've been following this conversation, which, believe me, it would be best if you weren't, you'd find Morch used the "dully noted" phrase first. I don't know if it was a misspelling on his part or if it was intentional, but I liked it a lot! So, I thought I'd repeat it in my replies. Just an FYI...

Dully noted...

Your comments above have been duly noted, but most of the contents of your posts have been dully noted.