jonclark

I agree with part of what you say Jon - that the PT & Dems have to work together.

I don't agree with the 'groundswell' of support for the reds/PT though. How do you measure that ?

I didn't say there was a groundswell of support. I measure the lack of support, by the fact that the numbers boasted about simply didn't materialize. Of course people will say they were prevented from going to Bkk, fair enough, but why didn't we see large numbers in other provinces like Khon Kaen etc. demostrating, if they were prevented from going to Bkk. As opposed to a few hundreds or thousands turining up every now and then.

BTW love this bit from the daily update -

BPbreakingnews: Reds to petition European Union UDD to ask EU to supervise demonstration

Hiding behind farangs are we lads - Such courage from the leaders - Maybe you can ask the EU to bring some MacD's when they arrive.

As farangs are constantly told - Thai politics is for Thai ONLY keep out of it.

So, the Reds are geographically challenged as well now. I do remember once hearing in a shopping mall in Irkutsk, Russia "now we are part of Europe"

Must have been a bloody big shopping mall. - Sorry off topic !!!

I agree with part of what you say Jon - that the PT & Dems have to work together.

I don't agree with the 'groundswell' of support for the reds/PT though. How do you measure that ?

I didn't say there was a groundswell of support. I measure the lack of support, by the fact that the numbers boasted about simply didn't materialize. Of course people will say they were prevented from going to Bkk, fair enough, but why didn't we see large numbers in other provinces like Khon Kaen etc. demostrating, if they were prevented from going to Bkk. As opposed to a few hundreds or thousands turining up every now and then.

BTW love this bit from the daily update -

BPbreakingnews: Reds to petition European Union UDD to ask EU to supervise demonstration

Hiding behind farangs are we lads - Such courage from the leaders - Maybe you can ask the EU to bring some MacD's when they arrive.

As farangs are constantly told - Thai politics is for Thai ONLY keep out of it.

Reds are fighting for the thing that so many stupid farangs who have written on this website take for granted in their home countries: democracy. For those who think it is purely about Thaksin's interests, you are so wrong (although, of course, he is the leader of the red shirts).

The real coward in all this is the Thai government, which was not elected by The People and is, therefore, not prepared to hold an election because they know they have absolutely no chance of winning. And why do they have absolutely no chance of winning? Because they know The People would not vote for them. And that, my friends, is why the red shirts are fighting: let The People decide who should run the country.

Very true.

Clearly though, some of the posters on this thread can't handle the truth.

Actually the longer this goes on the more extreme the reds are going to become, further alienating themselves from an already weary public. Previous election results should not be used as indicators of future election results. And lets be honest there has hardly been a massive groundswell of support for the reds. Sure they have 20'000 or however many people the various media outlets suggest turn up, and small pockets of 1 - 2000 people up country (but not down country please note) . But that in the overall population that is a small number. Certainly never anywhere near the 1 million man march we were promised or the 'new world record' march. I think the reds have overestimated their popularity. Thailand has many provinces Not all of them reflect the views shared by Issan.

Both sides should tone down their rhetoric as after new elections, whatever the out come BOTH sides MUST work together. Democrate MPs will have to work with a PT governemnt / or PT MPs will have to work with a Democrate governemnt for the benifit of the electorate . Otherwise the newly elected government become nothing more than changing shit for crap and the parliment degenerates in to a dung throwing contest as we have been witness to over the last 6 years and the country grinds to a halt.

Thai PM says he will step down if national stability at stake

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp...1052998/1/.html

Has permission been granted yet?

Abhisit is not the problem. I think that he has proven that he is a good man. However, the vote of the poor has been thwarted too many times in recent years and having new elections may be the only fair way out of this crisis.

The votesof all Thais have been thwarted in recent years. Anytime a person is not free to vote without fear of recrimination their votes are thwarted. A couple of incidents spring readily to mind

Taksin making his outragous statement many moons ago that provinces that didn't vote in TRT MPS would miss out on funding

The dismantaling of the Somcahi and Samak governments.

As for the OP - Whe Chavalit accuses Abhists of 'cold blooded murder'. I assume that this also implies that abhisit murdered the soliders in cold blood too? Otherwise we have a double standard !!!

If this young lady did use an agent service to put stamps in her passport without leaving the country. Is it illegal to offer this service???

Sure this young lady broke the law, but is she a criminal?? Probably not more than likely if she saw a service was advertised in plain english in big letters and had heard of other friends people using the servce, she probably thought 'why not?" Saves me the hassle.

With hindsight it was a mistake, but we have all made stupid mistakes, especially when we were so young. Hopefully she will get a serious bollocking, a fine and sent on her way. For her it will be a lesson learnt, immigration get a bit of dosh, and the agent carries on advertising his service.

So the cycle continues.

I don't know how any westerner can actually support the red protestors with how they are acting now.

Red supporters condemn the government, the army, the elite and the yellows. There are some good reasons to condemn these groups for their actions in the past.

But you support the lawlessness of the reds.

You support them shutting down a city of 10 million people.

You support them searching individuals going about their daily lives.

You support them shutting down roads around the country.

You support them bringing down the economy which will affect all Thais, and especially the poorer ones, for years to come.

Is this the sort of country that you want to live in?

A country where a small minority can do anything that they want? I am not talking about the grass roots red supporters, the poor farmers, the factory workers, the construction workers.

I am talking about the thugs searching people, searching cars, blockading highways. If they can do this now, what will they be able to do if their leaders control the government, the police and the army?

Support the poor. Condemn the elite.

But don't support the thugs ruining the country.

Pretty easy really...I sympathize with the red cause because I live in Isan and every day I see the deprived lives of these poor farmers breaking their backs in the field for a pittance...when I contrast that the to life of luxury and privilege of the corrupt elite it makes me vomit...as a farang I'm obliged to keep out of it directly and to avoid discussing it with Thai people.

I felt the same when i was working three temping jobs a day back in blightly to pay off debts and would watch as those with money could eat out an afford the life of luxury while i made it home at 10pm for a pot noodle and a can of coke before hitting the sack to get up the next day. Luxury and Poverty are endemic in every country in the world. Look at India as another example.

Of course the poor need help to get out of the poverty trap. But I haven't heard of one single policy or incentive that Jatuporn et al have put forward IF they win an election to help the poor.

They are going for power - If they get power it's going to be an even bloodier fight to try to rest power from them in the future. If you think elections will do it think again. They'll have the whole system rigged, in a similar vain to what the PAD proposed, except in the reds favour.

An impartial politician - Now that's an oxymoron.

Is this the sort of democracy we can expect under a red government?

Freedom of speech unless it is against us.

Red-shirts Form Special Units to Counter Multi Colored Shirt Group

The red-shirt core leaders have revealed that special units have been set up to 'counter' the movements of anti-red groups that are calling themselves the 'multi-colored shirt' group.

The largest anti-red shirt civic movement is being led by Dr. Tul Sittisomwong.

-- Tan Network 2010-04-27

I suppose it worked under Thaksin ... why not continue.

Translation their boys on bikes will turn up looking to intimidate the other group to disperse or look for a fight.

Hopefully the muliti colours will draw the reds away from the main rally site allowing the army to disperse the group.

I admire the essential principles of the reds , wanting equality etc. but I <deleted>**ing hate how they are going about it. It turns me right off them. And many others feel the same. Come on Abhisit give them what they want.... not a fight, an election within three months you and your coalition will be back in power with a larger majority than you have now.

Perhaps things will change but outside of Bangkok, I do not see any anarchy at all. In fact nothing has changed in the least.. It does seem sometimes that Bangkok is separate from the rest of Thailand. Personally, I hope there is no more violence in Bangkok or anywhere else. But if their is violence in Bangkok, I do not believe this will necessarily lead to a civil war. As long as farmers have crops and vendors can sell their goods I think life will just go on.

Sadly Abhisit and Suthep and the Yellow side want blood and death, nothing else can explain their actions.

It will likely start on Friday evening or Saturday morning (perhaps the most likely is Saturday morning as they will attempt during 12 hours of daylight to get the protest site back).

The ramping up of the Yellow propaganda machine is all about attempting to make things seem so bad they can say they were justified to go on their killing spree of innocent protesters.

Expect the Yellow propaganda machine to work more and more in the days ahead, and expect many "fake Reds" action designed to upset the people of Bangkok in order to get the acceptance that Reds must die and so use force is ok.

You can see that the media is already trying to spout the same excuses used some years back for killing all the students.

Someone appears to want to get the reputation of "Butcher of Bangkok".

Military Coup, Judicial Coup, Parliamentary Coup and now perhaps a more open "Slaughter" is going to happen.

Shame on them all if they do.

So levelhead - As you seem to support the reds / or are opposed to the yellows, maybe you could offer some advice to the neutrals in this to help form a more balanced view. How do I as a neutral seperate the actions of 'fake' reds, from the actions of 'true' reds. And was, in your opinion the disruption of the BTS (although a minor problem) the actions of 'fake' or 'true' reds?

Nothing like throwing gasoline on a fire to help put it out.

Why was there no Martial Law while they had controlled the Airport?

Double standard again.How dare the reds make themselves heard!

You are not people get back in your place and how dare you to challenge the YELLOW ELITE!

Can I get some of what you have been taking?

Go and hold your Oxford boy hand where ever he is hiding

If you want to know why there was no martial law during the airport fiasco. Ask the 'red aligned' PM. Maybe he felt it wasn't serious enough. Maybe because the yellows achieved their goal at the airport in a couple of weeks or maybe because it didn't effect the average working Thai on a daily basis. Or maybe because the yellows weren't killing fellow Thais with bombs in public places.

Not a double standard, but a totally different situation.

This double standard is sooooo boring.

Can i avoid paying taxes, cause Taksin didn't?

What do you mean i must pay taxes. That's a double standard!!!!

If i don't pay taxes i will go to jail

Taksin didn't. Double Standard!!!!

See boring, dull, and completely without any fathom of common sense. All people are equal, some are more equal than others. Fact of life.

The less the PM does the more the reds become embolden. The more the general population become pissed off with the lawlessness of the reds. The weaker politically the reds will becomes when it comes to a general election as more people vote against them. The longer this goes on the better chance the PM has of being re-elected. The reds behavior will ultimately work against them. They sure as shit won't win many seats in Bangkok or the south and I'm sure many people will either not vote or vote against them. Especially when the effects of the rally trickle down to the grass roots.

Reds better get ready for another 5 years in opposition. Just cause they won before, doesn't mean they'll win in the future. Times were different when Taksin rose to power.

As a footnote i went down rachadamri on Sunday and at least 20% of the people there were vendors selling red short stuff. Probably the same vendors selling yellow shirt stuff a couple of years ago.

Well the one positive aspect to this whole situation is that as yet they haven't blamed the farangs.. which is the normal get out clause in all arguments and disagreements involving Thais

Maybe that's why the reds went to the UN. To get some farangs involved so they can blame them for their woes.

Wouldn't it be funny if the UN agreed and assigned peacekeepers from Cambodia.

Not in your life am I going to be ashamed. Violence is violence and should not be tolerated whether it is white, green, blue, pink, red or you. And, yes my allegiance is with the reds being I live in Essan

You're wrong. Violence isn't violence. There is self defense violence. There is war violence. And then there is TERRORISM violence when you throw grenades and kill civilians at a skytrain station.

Well said jingthing. This is terrorism. How many people at the skytrain station were simply normal folk on their way home or just simply going about their business who had nothing to do with the rally or politics of the situation. jgm005 will continue to support the reds and continue to support terrorists.

If this is a red attack. IF. Then the Reds are creating there own Karma and all that bulls**t peaceful demonstration is shown to be just that bulls**t. Words say one thing, actions do another.

IF this is an attack instigated by another 'party' then they fully deserve the term terrorist. A multiple bomb attack on a public place can be classified as nothing else.

As for the civil court injunction. I hope the PM holds it with the same contempt as the reds would if it was issued against them.

Bunch of Arse!!!

Unfortunately this is all going to go pear-shaped in the next few days. It seems like both sides want a war and I think they are about to get it.

If Abhisit or the army wanted a war, they would have started it a month ago.

Abhisit has no control on what the army does or does not do.

If so he should resign because as the supposed leader of the nation, people will hold him accountable for the outcome.

Since when is anyone accountable for anything in Thailand.

TAN Network: Peoples Alliance for Democracy (PAD) gives the govt 7 days to take action against wrongdoers otherwise they will come out themselves

The PAD comes out...didn't know Sonthi and co were gay!!!

I thought gatherings of more than 5 people are banned anyway, aren't they?

Double standards eek laewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

They are supposed to be, but as with the "pink shirts" that law does not apply if you support the government. This was trap waiting for Abhisit to fall into, which he duly did. One more chip out of the government's credibility. The red shirts' propaganda machine will get maximum mileage out of it. I wonder how many other laws do not apply if you support the government?

The reds claiming 'double standards' because the 'pinks' weren't dispersed is utter nonsense. The reds are and have been breaking the law for weeks now. If they are so concerned about the law, then they should take the moral high ground and disperse FIRST as they gathered FIRST. And anyway as far as I know the 'Pinks' disperse peacefully every night without police or military assistance. When the reds are critical of others, they are being completely hypocritical and are really providing a very succinct abstract as to how they are breaking the law, and what they expect to happen if you break the law. Unless of course your red.

And the yellows broke the law time and time again when they occupied Government House and the airport ... and my dad's bigger than your dad ... na na na na na. Seriously though, they all want locking up one by one, or just call elections. Nobody deserves to be in power at the moment.

Couldn't agree more with your last sentence. Maybe that's the solution - individual self governance with no central system. Couldn't be any worse than what we already have....could it?

I thought gatherings of more than 5 people are banned anyway, aren't they?

Double standards eek laewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

They are supposed to be, but as with the "pink shirts" that law does not apply if you support the government. This was trap waiting for Abhisit to fall into, which he duly did. One more chip out of the government's credibility. The red shirts' propaganda machine will get maximum mileage out of it. I wonder how many other laws do not apply if you support the government?

The reds claiming 'double standards' because the 'pinks' weren't dispersed is utter nonsense. The reds are and have been breaking the law for weeks now. If they are so concerned about the law, then they should take the moral high ground and disperse FIRST as they gathered FIRST. And anyway as far as I know the 'Pinks' disperse peacefully every night without police or military assistance. When the reds are critical of others, they are being completely hypocritical and are really providing a very succinct abstract as to how they are breaking the law, and what they expect to happen if you break the law. Unless of course your red.

Although during a drought water shouldn't be wasted, the actual amount thrown during songkran, is completely insignificant when you consider how much water is used daily for agriculture and manufacturing purposes. It's something like 300 liters for every pair of jeans made and 20 liters to make a plastic bottle that holds 1 liter of Coke. I can't remember the exact figures but for 1 kg of rice produced something like 200 liters of water must be used for the irrigation of that rice.

The only thing for sure is that the army won't be out gunned next time on its home turf. Despite what Anupong says about no force being used.

i've just finished watching the video titled "Thai Army Opens Fire On Protesters, Protesters Hurl Grenades," and i have to say that the title is a little misleading. Nowhere in the video can you see the armying OPENING fire, you see and heard them respond, by firing into the air, which as the commentator says 'if they ae firinging into the crowd there would be alot more dead people hear'. This vidoe speaks volumes about the restraint of the army and how they tried to play by the rules. The actions of the reds - well watch the video, listen to the commentary and work out for yourself if the army really does open fire on the protesters.

I find it amazing that given the total amount of confusion that occured last night that we have a direct quote from a tourist involved, but no other information. What did the soliders do to make him say what he supposedly said. Was it actuallya solider or a fake red soider. Can't access the web site prachatai, so some more info would be useful. Often on this forum we heard of tourists in places like puket getting into scrapes with tuk tuk guys - personally i think there is more to this than just a simple <deleted>*k you. Also worth noting no interviews with this tourist after being shot , surely pictures of a shot tourist would make great red propaganda, just can't remember seeing any.

yestarday at 21:10 "Prachatai reporter from Kok Wua intersection reported that two foreign tourists were injured by soldiers. One was shot at the chest after having shouted 'fuc_k You!' to the soldiers. They have been sent to hospital." http://www.prachatai.org/english/node/1726

Worthy of a Darwin Awards Entry for sure.

having seen the video posted above. Which is inconclusive as to who fired first. Maybe next time the army should be allowed to use sharpen bamboo sticks rather than batons, and grenades rather than shield and rubber bullets. If i had been a solider on the front lines their i would have been scared witless and battered the first thing that moved wearing red purely for self preservation, and i'm sure 90% of the posters on this forum would do the same thing if they were in the front line and not sat at home with a beer in an aircon room safe on a comfy armchair, being airchair warriors. My deep gratitude to the bravery and courage of the soliders and my condolences to all the families who will not longer have the chance to hold their loved ones again. The breaking of the red budha dies indeed seem ominous

If this had happened in the US with guns, grenades and gas cannisters for bombs being used against the US police, anyone like to place bets as to the response of the US police - SWAT and lots of guns with live ammunition being used.

As does Jatuporn et al , and 'new thai state creationist Veera, in fact all of them do.slinging mud, and hurling insults and not accepting responsibility it what caused tonights events, all sides are to blame in equal measure. I keep thinking though were the lives of all of those affected tonight worth trying to force through house dissolution in 15 days rather than the nine months Abhisit offered. I'm sure the families of those that died would rather have their loved ones back and wait nine months than live forever without them and have a house dissolution in 15 days. Such a sad day for the land of smiles.

Without any doubt, Abhisit's time to go has come.

ok i'll bite

why is that then?

her looks stronger than ever to me

You don't look strong when you kill your own people just to stay in power. It could all have been avoided by calling new elections. If he is indeed backed by the majority of Thais as he claims, he should have no problem winning an election and proving his mandate.

Abhisit now has the blood of Thais on his hands, and the Thai people will not forgive him.