jonclark

(Don't bother responding to WhinyTheKwaai. Rubbish argument.)

The Red evolution:

1. "It was the government"

2. "It wasn't us"

3. "They were fake reds"

4. "Ok, they were reds, but they acted on their own"

5. "Ok, errrr, sorry"

So? What's the next level?

The government made us do it perhaps??

What's the latest on the hospital breach?

Just the usual -- Red Shirt leaders saying they didn't order the action and criticising the guy who led the invasion.

Nothing new, then, just more denial of responsibility, hypocrisy, and cowardice shown by these Red goons.

Gee, busting into a hospital and frightening nurses, bet that makes them feel important and proud of themselves.

Totally agree RickBradford. The leaders can deny any responsibility all they wish, but each and every one should be held accountable, including PT, for this shocking act. They are the ones who called for this "protest" at the start. If their leaders and protesters get out of hand, they must carry that burden since this is what they wanted. Win at any cost. The continual denials and lack of responsibility over the past month is staggering.

The red leaders thus far have been the only chanting the same mantra over and over again, "Crackdown is imminent, crackdown is imminent." I now hope they get their wish.

Exactly if the reds hold abhisit accountable for the bloodshed then the red leaders are accountable for the choas they encourage.

Words fail me today.... the actions of the reds push me further from their sympathies with every passing day. I find myself (a liberal) wanting military intervention. The police.... what a joke, wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire.

So angry at the ineptness of the BiB. The PAD must being gaining followers with evey ill thought through red action.

As i've watched the day progress I ge the feeling that the reds have become rudderless and without direction. Their rolling convoys after yesterdays incident probably won't be allowed to happen again. They government have blocked them in (if news reports are correct) and now they are asking farangs from the EU to condem the government.

I think the government is going to wait this one out. It may take another month or so, but containment is probably the best option.

I hope amnesty in the same report requested that reds shirt guards to not use US made weapons against the army and police. Don't want double standards do we?

Didnt realise sharpened bamboo stakes where US made weapons...

lol

I hope amnesty in the same report requested that reds shirt guards to not use US made weapons against the army and police. Don't want double standards do we?

As for intervention - they have already - Team macdonald resuced one of the red leaders yesterday

I agree with part of what you say Jon - that the PT & Dems have to work together.

I don't agree with the 'groundswell' of support for the reds/PT though. How do you measure that ?

I didn't say there was a groundswell of support. I measure the lack of support, by the fact that the numbers boasted about simply didn't materialize. Of course people will say they were prevented from going to Bkk, fair enough, but why didn't we see large numbers in other provinces like Khon Kaen etc. demostrating, if they were prevented from going to Bkk. As opposed to a few hundreds or thousands turining up every now and then.

BTW love this bit from the daily update -

BPbreakingnews: Reds to petition European Union UDD to ask EU to supervise demonstration

Hiding behind farangs are we lads - Such courage from the leaders - Maybe you can ask the EU to bring some MacD's when they arrive.

As farangs are constantly told - Thai politics is for Thai ONLY keep out of it.

Observers observe. They are not shields or interlopers. There are plenty of observers all across Bangkok

with cameras and video and more than enough means to observe what's happening. Place is crawling with reporters.

This line didn't work with the UN, Weng got some boilerplate comments, but not one move towards stepping in.

This will not get a better response either. EU will state some group speak platitudes and wait for the commerce to recommence.

The EU clearly will see this as a non-peaceful group taking a city center hostage,

by violent means and intimidation... they will not likely want to take THAT side of things,

and thus remain neutral.

And if you have ever seen a Davos Meeting showing the external protests getting closed down,

you would not be surprised at how this protest can be handled in EU terms.

Exactly

BTW wonder who would pick up the tab for the supervisors should the arrive - EU taxpayers - They supervisors ain't going to be cheap thats for sure probably $ 2'000 each per day (danger money, expenses and hotel etc.) over a 30 day period of supervision for say 10 supervisors - 10X30x 2000 = (hang on where's my calculator...um.....shit run out of fingers.... ) $600'000. [0r 18 million baht in old money] Get your check book out Taksin!!

Or are they expecting them to turn up for free?

Rather than asking why Red Shirts turn colorless, why does the writer not ask why all Red media is shut down, why freedom of informaiton is now the same as Burma, why the government/Yellow side are still rampant in their use of propaganda ?

Want to research some on this issue then

http://facthai.wordpress.com/

.

Levelhead - I agree that there needs to be freedom of expression / information, but if you are free to express your wishes and those wishes incite or encourage others to use violence which results in injury or death. Should you be allowed that luxury to express yourself freely? i have seen a number of you tube clips of red speakers at rallies - and one springs to mind of a middle aged man encouraging people to take 1 liter bottles from Khon Kean?? (possibly i am mistaken about the city), then march to Bangkok, fill the bottles with petrol and use them to burn down the buildings of institutions, including the privy councilor.

Should that information be freely available political / community leaders encouraging lawlessness, violence and hatred.

Those who wish to have fredom of information and experssion need to censor themsleves in accordance with the laws and not incite others into commiting unlawful acts.

Do the sites that have been block fall into that category - i don't know. Whilst i don't agree with limiting the flow of information, at this time if a few 'innocent sites get blocked in a 'crackdown' but this crack down prevents death and injury. Isn't that a small price to pay.

I'm not going to get into an argument why haven't yellow sites been shut down, because i don't know if they have or haven't.

I agree with part of what you say Jon - that the PT & Dems have to work together.

I don't agree with the 'groundswell' of support for the reds/PT though. How do you measure that ?

I didn't say there was a groundswell of support. I measure the lack of support, by the fact that the numbers boasted about simply didn't materialize. Of course people will say they were prevented from going to Bkk, fair enough, but why didn't we see large numbers in other provinces like Khon Kaen etc. demostrating, if they were prevented from going to Bkk. As opposed to a few hundreds or thousands turining up every now and then.

BTW love this bit from the daily update -

BPbreakingnews: Reds to petition European Union UDD to ask EU to supervise demonstration

Hiding behind farangs are we lads - Such courage from the leaders - Maybe you can ask the EU to bring some MacD's when they arrive.

As farangs are constantly told - Thai politics is for Thai ONLY keep out of it.

So, the Reds are geographically challenged as well now. I do remember once hearing in a shopping mall in Irkutsk, Russia "now we are part of Europe"

Must have been a bloody big shopping mall. - Sorry off topic !!!

I agree with part of what you say Jon - that the PT & Dems have to work together.

I don't agree with the 'groundswell' of support for the reds/PT though. How do you measure that ?

I didn't say there was a groundswell of support. I measure the lack of support, by the fact that the numbers boasted about simply didn't materialize. Of course people will say they were prevented from going to Bkk, fair enough, but why didn't we see large numbers in other provinces like Khon Kaen etc. demostrating, if they were prevented from going to Bkk. As opposed to a few hundreds or thousands turining up every now and then.

BTW love this bit from the daily update -

BPbreakingnews: Reds to petition European Union UDD to ask EU to supervise demonstration

Hiding behind farangs are we lads - Such courage from the leaders - Maybe you can ask the EU to bring some MacD's when they arrive.

As farangs are constantly told - Thai politics is for Thai ONLY keep out of it.

Reds are fighting for the thing that so many stupid farangs who have written on this website take for granted in their home countries: democracy. For those who think it is purely about Thaksin's interests, you are so wrong (although, of course, he is the leader of the red shirts).

The real coward in all this is the Thai government, which was not elected by The People and is, therefore, not prepared to hold an election because they know they have absolutely no chance of winning. And why do they have absolutely no chance of winning? Because they know The People would not vote for them. And that, my friends, is why the red shirts are fighting: let The People decide who should run the country.

Very true.

Clearly though, some of the posters on this thread can't handle the truth.

Actually the longer this goes on the more extreme the reds are going to become, further alienating themselves from an already weary public. Previous election results should not be used as indicators of future election results. And lets be honest there has hardly been a massive groundswell of support for the reds. Sure they have 20'000 or however many people the various media outlets suggest turn up, and small pockets of 1 - 2000 people up country (but not down country please note) . But that in the overall population that is a small number. Certainly never anywhere near the 1 million man march we were promised or the 'new world record' march. I think the reds have overestimated their popularity. Thailand has many provinces Not all of them reflect the views shared by Issan.

Both sides should tone down their rhetoric as after new elections, whatever the out come BOTH sides MUST work together. Democrate MPs will have to work with a PT governemnt / or PT MPs will have to work with a Democrate governemnt for the benifit of the electorate . Otherwise the newly elected government become nothing more than changing shit for crap and the parliment degenerates in to a dung throwing contest as we have been witness to over the last 6 years and the country grinds to a halt.

Thai PM says he will step down if national stability at stake

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp...1052998/1/.html

Has permission been granted yet?

Abhisit is not the problem. I think that he has proven that he is a good man. However, the vote of the poor has been thwarted too many times in recent years and having new elections may be the only fair way out of this crisis.

The votesof all Thais have been thwarted in recent years. Anytime a person is not free to vote without fear of recrimination their votes are thwarted. A couple of incidents spring readily to mind

Taksin making his outragous statement many moons ago that provinces that didn't vote in TRT MPS would miss out on funding

The dismantaling of the Somcahi and Samak governments.

As for the OP - Whe Chavalit accuses Abhists of 'cold blooded murder'. I assume that this also implies that abhisit murdered the soliders in cold blood too? Otherwise we have a double standard !!!

If this young lady did use an agent service to put stamps in her passport without leaving the country. Is it illegal to offer this service???

Sure this young lady broke the law, but is she a criminal?? Probably not more than likely if she saw a service was advertised in plain english in big letters and had heard of other friends people using the servce, she probably thought 'why not?" Saves me the hassle.

With hindsight it was a mistake, but we have all made stupid mistakes, especially when we were so young. Hopefully she will get a serious bollocking, a fine and sent on her way. For her it will be a lesson learnt, immigration get a bit of dosh, and the agent carries on advertising his service.

So the cycle continues.

I don't know how any westerner can actually support the red protestors with how they are acting now.

Red supporters condemn the government, the army, the elite and the yellows. There are some good reasons to condemn these groups for their actions in the past.

But you support the lawlessness of the reds.

You support them shutting down a city of 10 million people.

You support them searching individuals going about their daily lives.

You support them shutting down roads around the country.

You support them bringing down the economy which will affect all Thais, and especially the poorer ones, for years to come.

Is this the sort of country that you want to live in?

A country where a small minority can do anything that they want? I am not talking about the grass roots red supporters, the poor farmers, the factory workers, the construction workers.

I am talking about the thugs searching people, searching cars, blockading highways. If they can do this now, what will they be able to do if their leaders control the government, the police and the army?

Support the poor. Condemn the elite.

But don't support the thugs ruining the country.

Pretty easy really...I sympathize with the red cause because I live in Isan and every day I see the deprived lives of these poor farmers breaking their backs in the field for a pittance...when I contrast that the to life of luxury and privilege of the corrupt elite it makes me vomit...as a farang I'm obliged to keep out of it directly and to avoid discussing it with Thai people.

I felt the same when i was working three temping jobs a day back in blightly to pay off debts and would watch as those with money could eat out an afford the life of luxury while i made it home at 10pm for a pot noodle and a can of coke before hitting the sack to get up the next day. Luxury and Poverty are endemic in every country in the world. Look at India as another example.

Of course the poor need help to get out of the poverty trap. But I haven't heard of one single policy or incentive that Jatuporn et al have put forward IF they win an election to help the poor.

They are going for power - If they get power it's going to be an even bloodier fight to try to rest power from them in the future. If you think elections will do it think again. They'll have the whole system rigged, in a similar vain to what the PAD proposed, except in the reds favour.

An impartial politician - Now that's an oxymoron.

Is this the sort of democracy we can expect under a red government?

Freedom of speech unless it is against us.

Red-shirts Form Special Units to Counter Multi Colored Shirt Group

The red-shirt core leaders have revealed that special units have been set up to 'counter' the movements of anti-red groups that are calling themselves the 'multi-colored shirt' group.

The largest anti-red shirt civic movement is being led by Dr. Tul Sittisomwong.

-- Tan Network 2010-04-27

I suppose it worked under Thaksin ... why not continue.

Translation their boys on bikes will turn up looking to intimidate the other group to disperse or look for a fight.

Hopefully the muliti colours will draw the reds away from the main rally site allowing the army to disperse the group.

I admire the essential principles of the reds , wanting equality etc. but I <deleted>**ing hate how they are going about it. It turns me right off them. And many others feel the same. Come on Abhisit give them what they want.... not a fight, an election within three months you and your coalition will be back in power with a larger majority than you have now.

Perhaps things will change but outside of Bangkok, I do not see any anarchy at all. In fact nothing has changed in the least.. It does seem sometimes that Bangkok is separate from the rest of Thailand. Personally, I hope there is no more violence in Bangkok or anywhere else. But if their is violence in Bangkok, I do not believe this will necessarily lead to a civil war. As long as farmers have crops and vendors can sell their goods I think life will just go on.

Sadly Abhisit and Suthep and the Yellow side want blood and death, nothing else can explain their actions.

It will likely start on Friday evening or Saturday morning (perhaps the most likely is Saturday morning as they will attempt during 12 hours of daylight to get the protest site back).

The ramping up of the Yellow propaganda machine is all about attempting to make things seem so bad they can say they were justified to go on their killing spree of innocent protesters.

Expect the Yellow propaganda machine to work more and more in the days ahead, and expect many "fake Reds" action designed to upset the people of Bangkok in order to get the acceptance that Reds must die and so use force is ok.

You can see that the media is already trying to spout the same excuses used some years back for killing all the students.

Someone appears to want to get the reputation of "Butcher of Bangkok".

Military Coup, Judicial Coup, Parliamentary Coup and now perhaps a more open "Slaughter" is going to happen.

Shame on them all if they do.

So levelhead - As you seem to support the reds / or are opposed to the yellows, maybe you could offer some advice to the neutrals in this to help form a more balanced view. How do I as a neutral seperate the actions of 'fake' reds, from the actions of 'true' reds. And was, in your opinion the disruption of the BTS (although a minor problem) the actions of 'fake' or 'true' reds?

Nothing like throwing gasoline on a fire to help put it out.

Why was there no Martial Law while they had controlled the Airport?

Double standard again.How dare the reds make themselves heard!

You are not people get back in your place and how dare you to challenge the YELLOW ELITE!

Can I get some of what you have been taking?

Go and hold your Oxford boy hand where ever he is hiding

If you want to know why there was no martial law during the airport fiasco. Ask the 'red aligned' PM. Maybe he felt it wasn't serious enough. Maybe because the yellows achieved their goal at the airport in a couple of weeks or maybe because it didn't effect the average working Thai on a daily basis. Or maybe because the yellows weren't killing fellow Thais with bombs in public places.

Not a double standard, but a totally different situation.

This double standard is sooooo boring.

Can i avoid paying taxes, cause Taksin didn't?

What do you mean i must pay taxes. That's a double standard!!!!

If i don't pay taxes i will go to jail

Taksin didn't. Double Standard!!!!

See boring, dull, and completely without any fathom of common sense. All people are equal, some are more equal than others. Fact of life.

The less the PM does the more the reds become embolden. The more the general population become pissed off with the lawlessness of the reds. The weaker politically the reds will becomes when it comes to a general election as more people vote against them. The longer this goes on the better chance the PM has of being re-elected. The reds behavior will ultimately work against them. They sure as shit won't win many seats in Bangkok or the south and I'm sure many people will either not vote or vote against them. Especially when the effects of the rally trickle down to the grass roots.

Reds better get ready for another 5 years in opposition. Just cause they won before, doesn't mean they'll win in the future. Times were different when Taksin rose to power.

As a footnote i went down rachadamri on Sunday and at least 20% of the people there were vendors selling red short stuff. Probably the same vendors selling yellow shirt stuff a couple of years ago.

Well the one positive aspect to this whole situation is that as yet they haven't blamed the farangs.. which is the normal get out clause in all arguments and disagreements involving Thais

Maybe that's why the reds went to the UN. To get some farangs involved so they can blame them for their woes.

Wouldn't it be funny if the UN agreed and assigned peacekeepers from Cambodia.

Not in your life am I going to be ashamed. Violence is violence and should not be tolerated whether it is white, green, blue, pink, red or you. And, yes my allegiance is with the reds being I live in Essan

You're wrong. Violence isn't violence. There is self defense violence. There is war violence. And then there is TERRORISM violence when you throw grenades and kill civilians at a skytrain station.

Well said jingthing. This is terrorism. How many people at the skytrain station were simply normal folk on their way home or just simply going about their business who had nothing to do with the rally or politics of the situation. jgm005 will continue to support the reds and continue to support terrorists.

If this is a red attack. IF. Then the Reds are creating there own Karma and all that bulls**t peaceful demonstration is shown to be just that bulls**t. Words say one thing, actions do another.

IF this is an attack instigated by another 'party' then they fully deserve the term terrorist. A multiple bomb attack on a public place can be classified as nothing else.

As for the civil court injunction. I hope the PM holds it with the same contempt as the reds would if it was issued against them.

Bunch of Arse!!!

Unfortunately this is all going to go pear-shaped in the next few days. It seems like both sides want a war and I think they are about to get it.

If Abhisit or the army wanted a war, they would have started it a month ago.

Abhisit has no control on what the army does or does not do.

If so he should resign because as the supposed leader of the nation, people will hold him accountable for the outcome.

Since when is anyone accountable for anything in Thailand.

TAN Network: Peoples Alliance for Democracy (PAD) gives the govt 7 days to take action against wrongdoers otherwise they will come out themselves

The PAD comes out...didn't know Sonthi and co were gay!!!

I thought gatherings of more than 5 people are banned anyway, aren't they?

Double standards eek laewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

They are supposed to be, but as with the "pink shirts" that law does not apply if you support the government. This was trap waiting for Abhisit to fall into, which he duly did. One more chip out of the government's credibility. The red shirts' propaganda machine will get maximum mileage out of it. I wonder how many other laws do not apply if you support the government?

The reds claiming 'double standards' because the 'pinks' weren't dispersed is utter nonsense. The reds are and have been breaking the law for weeks now. If they are so concerned about the law, then they should take the moral high ground and disperse FIRST as they gathered FIRST. And anyway as far as I know the 'Pinks' disperse peacefully every night without police or military assistance. When the reds are critical of others, they are being completely hypocritical and are really providing a very succinct abstract as to how they are breaking the law, and what they expect to happen if you break the law. Unless of course your red.

And the yellows broke the law time and time again when they occupied Government House and the airport ... and my dad's bigger than your dad ... na na na na na. Seriously though, they all want locking up one by one, or just call elections. Nobody deserves to be in power at the moment.

Couldn't agree more with your last sentence. Maybe that's the solution - individual self governance with no central system. Couldn't be any worse than what we already have....could it?