jonclark

Whoever wrote this article is an idiot. The western world is laughing at Thailand. They know it is all political motivated, and that Thailand is a failed state.

Just how is Thailand a failed state?

There is food in the shops, good transport infrastructure, medical care available to everyone, an education system in place, water and electricity flow with no major problems, it is safe to walk the street. taxes are collected, the police force works (just) foreign companies can invest here, the stock market works, elections, both national and local are held within prescribed time frames.

So what is failed about Thailand. Thailand has problems, but so does every country in the world - Think of the US heath care system for example.

I think your statement about the western world 'laughing' at Thailand is extremely cynical. I think the western word is concerned with recent events and the loss of life. Foreigners and western governments take no pleasure in seeing conflict and death on the streets of Thailand. When Hilary Clinton steps up at a press conference and says " Thailand... Yeah its f*cking hilarious, Barrack and I have been pissing ourselves laughing, watching the events on CNN" Then I'll believe the western world is laughing at Thailand.

Finally we get to political motivation - All politicians and actions thereof are politically motivated.

Boys, boys, wearing a helmet (or lack of) has nothing to do with the law. It's the weather. Put simply it's too hot to wear a helmet. Whats more important, keeping your head and hair from getting sweaty or disheveled or having your brains smeared across the main road. Your hair obviously.

TiT - Find the logical answer and then look for the excact opposite to hold true here.

As for the OP - Well, No shit sherlock, my hamster could have pointed that out.

For sure not all police are like that but I never met one . With their little salary no wonder they need to have extra cash .

small salary is not an excuse.. if the moneys not good enough, find a better job. a policemans duty to to protect and serve and uphold the law.. period...

Exacty - otherwise as an underpaid teacher, for example, i would be fully justified in demanding money from students in order for me to allow them to pass their exams.... .

I do however think that the state should purchase basic police equipment - like the gun, so that as a state purchase, the gun is and (should) remains the property of the state, long after the person has finished being a copper. It would i imagine make ballistics tracing a bit easier if the state had a records of the guns in its arse(nel), rather than coppers with random purchased guns wandering the streets.

But back to the OP - what can you say except that if Thai folks tolerate being treated like this, then i have little sympathy for them. If they want it to change, they (as a population) need to get off their backsides and demand change and realize that they have the power to expediate that change, however many can't be arsed.

Jutaporn has done the Dems and their allies a massive favour;his reported claims such as the govt burned down Central World and the blackshirts had nothing to do with the reds are risable, and will be seen as such by most Thais (incl by many reds ). I am not Sutheps biggest fan but his was a pretty good performance and he showed up Jutaporn for what he is,an ignorant bully. PT are going to be decimated at the next election after this farce, and they probably now realize this. Newins group will make big inroads into their position in parts of Isarn and they will be reduced to their heartland areas of KK and CM. I would guess you will see some split in the party with those who have always wanted to maintain some distance from the extremists emerging more as a faction and maybe spliting away, joining Newins group?Meanwhile the Dems standing has been enhanced by this and they should be able to ,at least, consolidate their position outside Isarn and also make a few gains here and there,enough to ensure they are the largest party in the house. Abhisit maybe tempted to call a November election after all!

Good insight, and I think a likely scenario. A different scenario might eventually be measured by the certain death toll of canvassers when electioneering does start.

You guys just don't get it do you? Thaksin is the only Thai PM to have won 2 consecutive elections Abhisit has not won one. Abhisit is scared of holding a general election as he knows he will lose. There is no way he will call one until he absolutely has to. This will be great for the opposition Phue Thai party as they will have time to regroup and win the next election which will probably reslult in another coup as the Amart don't like the less well off running the country and here we go again who know who will occupy what but it will happen again it always does in Thai politics, welcome to Thailand and Thai politics!

How many votes did PTP get in the last election 0 - It is becoming increasingly obvious that PTP is far more radical and extreme than the People Power which got the largest slice of the pie in the last election. It is not beyond possibility that PTP extreme antics have scared away previous People Power voters. I wouldn't use past successes as an indicator of future success.

Some of the things being said in this debate are just plain stupid.

On Apr 10 PM "requested return of occupied area", Sunai says, "just like Hitler requested return of (economic) area from Jews

These comparisons of people to Hitler are quite ridiculous and a sign of immaturity on the behalf of the accusers. Is this what passes off as debate here ?

Anyone with a balanced view will know these comparisons are both unfair and inflammatory. It is sad that Thailand has people making such comments in positions of power. Can you imagine the furore if such comments were made in parliament in any developed nation ?

In Thailand, it's just par for the course. It is very sad indeed.

The opposition should be thankful he isn't like Hitler otherwise it would be off to the gas chamber with all PTP MP's, and if they think Hitler would sit down and talk about reconcilliation and / or allow a censure debate on his leadership they are clearly mad, or obviously taking direction form someone who is mad. The 'hitler' reference is clearly there to garner support or sympathy for the reds from a western audience. Since when did Thais use western figures to cross reference and compare Thai figures, unless it is for a wider audience that has little understanding of the complexities of the politics and only see the spin. PTP MP's talking out their fat, well paid backsides.

Whenever reference is made to Western or "outside" Thailand political personalities, the references are normally nonsense. Vis a vis the red leader wearing a Ghandi T-shirt, or people here likening the reds to the civil rights movement and Martin Luther King in the US.

History or political history isn't a strong point in Thailand, hence why it appears ok to have an illegal protests and attempt and sometimes succeed to overthrow governments. Understanding real political sacrifice doesn't extend much beyond sitting in the sun for a long time when it comes to doing it Thai style.

Agreed - but my gut feeling is that the hitler reference was added into the mix as a request from Mr. Amsterdam to allow western tv audiences to rightly or wrongly compare the actions of this government with a historical hate figure. Taksin wants this played out to a global audience so he needs an instantly recognisable hate figure to associate abhisit with.

Does anyone know the international standards for evicting a large mob of criminals from a barricaded section of a major city? What is done in the UK or the USA when armed terrorists occupy the streets and attack security forces? Suggesting that there is a standard method for dealing with the Thai crisis is ridiculous, when has a similar event happened anywhere else?

I beleive the SAS storming of the Iranian embassy should be held up as evidence 101 for the defence on how to deal with armed terroroists according to international standards.

For a more recent analogy is suggest current events in Jamaica

Hi Level Head,

You state that "It has been reported that some death certificates have been filled in incorrectly"

Where has this been reported?

Do you have a link to the original story?

Also stating that cutting off peoples internet access is an infringement of basic human rights, may be a bit of a stretch.

The red shirts were gathered illegally, and the response that they got was a long time coming.

In any other country on earth they would have been moved on with force after hours, not weeks.

Case in point, Akkaradej Khankaew from Kalasin.

//URL removed by Admin

On your other point the illegal gathering should have been dealt with by police, with tear gas and batons if necessary, as was the case under the PPP government. It should not have been dealt with by the Army, and the use of the army, and using of live ammo by the army is something that is going to be investigated by top human rights and war crimes lawyers, as it should be.

The world is going to ask why the police were not used, why no attempt was made to use them and why the government so quickly brought in the army with the ability to use lethal force against civilians.

If it transpires the government is not in control of its police force due to questions over its legitimacy or whatever, then a government not in control should have made way for elections for a new government that is.

The police were not used simply because the police are crap and are unable to organise a piss up in a brewery. Remember what happen when the PM sent them to arrest Arisman and co at the hotel, absolutly f**king hilarious. If the police had been sent in to remove the protesters from Ratchaprasong at the mere sight of a few thousand reds the police would have shit themselves, given the reds their guns, body armour, batons, shields etc and run away, leaving the reds more empowered and better armed.

In an ideal world the police would have been used, but the Thai police as all Thais, and the outside world knows are utter <deleted> and a disgrace to the uniform they wear and the ideals the took an oath to uphold.

So when negotiations fail and the police prove ineffective - what options would you suggest??

Some of the things being said in this debate are just plain stupid.

On Apr 10 PM "requested return of occupied area", Sunai says, "just like Hitler requested return of (economic) area from Jews

These comparisons of people to Hitler are quite ridiculous and a sign of immaturity on the behalf of the accusers. Is this what passes off as debate here ?

Anyone with a balanced view will know these comparisons are both unfair and inflammatory. It is sad that Thailand has people making such comments in positions of power. Can you imagine the furore if such comments were made in parliament in any developed nation ?

In Thailand, it's just par for the course. It is very sad indeed.

The opposition should be thankful he isn't like Hitler otherwise it would be off to the gas chamber with all PTP MP's, and if they think Hitler would sit down and talk about reconcilliation and / or allow a censure debate on his leadership they are clearly mad, or obviously taking direction form someone who is mad. The 'hitler' reference is clearly there to garner support or sympathy for the reds from a western audience. Since when did Thais use western figures to cross reference and compare Thai figures, unless it is for a wider audience that has little understanding of the complexities of the politics and only see the spin. PTP MP's talking out their fat, well paid backsides.

Nice to know this woman is happy that poor people in Bangkok (many of whom actually come from the same kind of background as her) have lost their jobs thanks to all the burning she is happy about. Seems nobody is picking up on all the poor that are suffering because of the red arson and violence. There is a big irony in that albeit a sad one. Bnagkok is not full; of only rich people and it is the poor who are suffering most from the attacks through lost work.

I am sorry to say I agree with the woman from Chiang Mai, the Abhisit government is not legitimate, it rorted the normal electoral process.

It is also cynical, shameless and unprincipled. I believe Abhisit's objective is simply to hold on to power and he doesn't much mind at what cost.

But, would a government formed by Phue Thai MP's be mroe legitimate. Not a single Phue Thai MP was elected as a PT MP. They were all elected as People Power MPs - So technically in the last election PT got 0 votes as it didn't contest the election as the entity it is today.

If PTP win the no confidence vote and can get a confidence vote in favour of their chisen candidate Chalerm then it would be perfectly legitimate under laws pertaining to such things in Thailand as is the current administration and the two before it. Parliamnet choses the government in Thailand and the people chose parliament.

Exactly, so despite neither abhisit nor PTP being directly voted in by an election in the ideal sense. Both would be and are legitimate forms of government according to the laws of the land. Wonder if the reds will come out to protest against PTP if they win the no confidence motion?? Anything less would be a violation of their double standard mantra.

Nice to know this woman is happy that poor people in Bangkok (many of whom actually come from the same kind of background as her) have lost their jobs thanks to all the burning she is happy about. Seems nobody is picking up on all the poor that are suffering because of the red arson and violence. There is a big irony in that albeit a sad one. Bnagkok is not full; of only rich people and it is the poor who are suffering most from the attacks through lost work.

I am sorry to say I agree with the woman from Chiang Mai, the Abhisit government is not legitimate, it rorted the normal electoral process.

It is also cynical, shameless and unprincipled. I believe Abhisit's objective is simply to hold on to power and he doesn't much mind at what cost.

But, would a government formed by Phue Thai MP's be mroe legitimate. Not a single Phue Thai MP was elected as a PT MP. They were all elected as People Power MPs - So technically in the last election PT got 0 votes as it didn't contest the election as the entity it is today.

I vote for a permanent Curfew. stop all the P**s Heads and criminals at night, Shoot them on sight if seen outside in curfew times.

Nah go the whole hog and vote for a permanent 24hours curfew and shoot anyone seen outside, day or night including women and children even if going for food.

This thread is quite bizarre. From the OP it seems to be degenerating into a mud slinging match with the under lying theme of foreigners disliking all other foreigners, which incidently supports the general Thai view that all farangs are pond life because we're saying it about ourselves.

I read on many previous threads over the last couple of weeks, that if some of the more extreme posters had their way, the red protesters should be shot, maimed, blow up etc. etc for their actions. Before we all jump on the band wagon and vilify this idiot, maybe we should take a look in the mirror and see if we maybe in a fit of rage posted something inciting violence etc. over the past few weeks. We all say [and type] stupid things when the red mist descends, he was stupid enough to be caught in camera.

//Post removed by moderator

Crikey, someones got a chip on their shoulder about the British

Edit - Does anyone know if he can speak Thai? As i'd imagine in order to be successful in inciting the masses to rise up, you'd have to be able to communicate with most of them fairly well. I just can't see many of the children, elderly and women being educated in English.

//Post removed by moderator

Crikey, someones got a chip on their shoulder about the British

"100 strong crowd"

Wow ... fantastic support.

How big was the crowd chanting and waving flags for Prime minister Abhisit ?

NEWSFLASH - Jatuporn from his cell in Hua Hin claims 1 million turned up to welcome home the reds and blamed the media for lying (again)

But he's not even reading this. He's not getitng any abuse. You are all just spouting off hate filled 'and quite bizarre' comments. You all sound like a lynch mob far worse than anything in Bangkok. What ever happened to remaining level headed and civilized. It's just an idiot who was obviously missing some purpose in his life. And for the record there are at least 12 comments on this post alone saying that foreigners shouldnt get involved in Thai politics.

The fact that you are all dictating what the Thai judiciary should do when you are all foreigners is amusing to say the least though. Almost makes up for the embarrasing comments people are writing. I would be far more ashamed of Thai people reading these comments than of one man's actions.

Kananga. I agree 100% with your comments.

Like it or not we are all involved in Thai politics because politics effects our daily lives, from a change in visa regulations, changes in taxation levels, to a full blown election. I have met many Thai people who have made comments on the UK system and politicians and i enjoy their input. A free and frank discussion by all people is one of the keystones of a democracy. If you stifle freedom to pass comment, then you stifle democracy.

I appreciate that many Thai people and expats are feeling angry and threatened by the events of the past few days and weeks and it is very easy to focus on the actions of an outsiders to vent their frustrations which border in racism at times. But when people make sweeping vindictive statements they tar those who are their friends and innocent with the same brush as the guilty.

Like it or not the world is growing smaller by the day and in the coming years foreigners and foreign governments are going to play an ever increasing role in the shaping of Thailand's future. That may upset some traditionalists but often when tradition is confronted by progress, progress wins.

This guy is a tit, just like all the other people involved; so lets have a balanced comment, He and all the other Thai people who burnt down Central World are criminals and w**kers. They should all serve jail time.

Peace

...not your country you have no rights so shut the hel_l up is all i say

A post which really sums up the depth and scope of the problems facing Thailand.

Fairly sure ALL people [be they red, yellow, back, brown or white] have rights.

Deary deary me... what and arse.

But please spare us all the anti brit comments bordering on racism please - colonial power etc. etc. Every country has skeletons in the closet which can be dragged out by angry / narrow minded people. I've seen enough of those comments directed at Thai people by TV posters to last me a life time.

Lets keep the comments focused on a single <deleted> and HIS words and actions.

Notice that he uses 'we're gonna...' obviously a sheep following the flock, who gave the order??

Click on the Somtow's World link, and then click on the link to Don't Blame Dan Rivers on the right.

or just click? http://www.somtow.org/2010/05/dont-blame-dan-rivers.html

Thanks for the link - A good read with some interesting points

Sorry doubt post deleted

Given most farang in Thailand are so poor in the Thai language; they have zero chance of understanding the nuances of the things said at the rallies by the various red shirt operatives. 99% of the farang have no idea of the seditious and treasonous language used against the government. This crossed major boundaries of social/political etiquette.

Not to belabor the point; most western reporting is crap and they would have been better off showing pictures and forgetting their ill informed reportage.

Most opinions by westerners aren't worth the energy to express them.

For those interested in learning about their adopted country and culture this link may prove helpful;

somtow.org/2010/05/dont-blame-dan-rivers

I can't post a full url; you can figure it out if you are interested.

Someone else shares your view considering this is what you get at the website

Page not found

Sorry, the page you were looking for in the blog Somtow's World does not exist.

I agree that the Red Shirt leadership were foolish in not accepting Abhisit's compromise without trying to attach ridiculous conditions, but fail to understand how their surrender yesterday meant they abandoned their followers. Were they supposed to encourage their followers to fight to the death?

This is a stupid and irresponsible editorial.

I think it is a well writen article by somebody who is well informed, unlike yourself............... Google the "jonestown massacre" and see how that guy Jones led masses of people in the wrong direction (almost a thousand followers commited suicide).............. Just as these lovely Isan folks, Ill-educated as most are, have been easily led astray. If you really think it is about Democracy -- you're naive......... If you notice that most of us back the Govt and a minority back the red-shirts----- If you know anything about Democracy, or life in general, you will know that the majority rules and wins............

If the majority support the government, why didn't Abhisit call an election, win it and then none of this would have happened. The blame rest firmly on his shoulders. You cannot deny people democracy year after year and expect no consequences.

You are right, in a democracy the majority rules and wins..... Democracy is NOT what is happening in Thailand. It hasn't seen democracy since the coup.

Well said. The elections which brought PPP / PT were completely undemocratic, so why are the reds complaining now???

The Red's are a bigger bully themselves.

More troubles is on the way until the bullies step down and hand the nation back to its people.

Bloop

Speechless, so much for peaceful

Interesting enough, this tells you that the Ban Nok's are not a bunch of idiots like the self proclaimed red leaders who knows only to sing, talented public speaker , trying to be gentleman in politics , not organized , no unity , coward , playing with emotions of the simple Ban Nok's feeling and worst of all committed slaying of red comrades.

First time mistake is not enough , these so called leaders have to commit twice.

There is this saying once beaten , twice shy , third better you die than we die.

This is so much love and respect the reds or the nation have for the big bullies and murderers alike.

Ban Nok's don't need academician , professors , pretty boy leaders or cowards to hold their nose up and follow them around.

They have their own head of province , under ground guerrillas warfare specialist and they have their own food and culture.

These groups of politicians, elites , bullies and murderer is going to have a hard time figuring out where and when there will be riots and burning of buildings and tires as a warning.

Thai nation don't need to pay protection fees to bullies for protection. The Red's are a bigger bully themselves.

More troubles is on the way until the bullies step down and hand the nation back to its people.

Bloop

Hmmm - is this "Bloop fella for real? Is he suggesting that the 99% of peaceful, hard-working Thais hand all the power over to the 0.1% of lawless thugs and their convicted, fugitive leader?

Yes he is - Bloop seems to be under the illusion that the 35% of the votes that the reds got in the last election is 'the will of the people' but discounts the 65% that didn't vote red. But, don't level any criticism at the lemon or he'll call you elite. Bloop reminds me of G.W.Bush and his famous "you're either with us or against us' speech - black and white with nothing in the middle.