Georgie-Porgie

My feeling are, that if indeed these allegations are true (and I have no idea if they are) that it is possible that Nixon had good reason for OKing the invasion. During that period of time, I felt about Nixon, the same way that you feel towards George W. Bush, I despised him, but I have also seen in retrospect that he is considered to have been a pretty good President. That is one reason that I try not to be too quick to judge Bush's motives.

Now, what are your feelings about this:

Australia's handling of East Timor is one of the most shameful episodes of Australian foreign policy. Until last year, when the Australian Government finally sent a peace keeping force to a nation devastated by the pro-Indonesian militia, successive federal governments have turned a blind eye to Indonesia's often brutal efforts to subdue the rebellious East Timorese.

Yes, yes, I know, there are two sides to every story, aren't there, but I've been telling you that for weeks, haven't I? Now, you keep telling me to give you facts about all your anti-American posts, very much like this one. You give me the facts. You try to prove that this isn't true, and then I'll have some more for you.

By the way, according to the Internet, you Ozzie SAS types have been naughty, naughty boys. Should provide us with some interesting reading for the next few months!

I'm really bored with America, America, America, and I quite like reading about Australia, so I'm going to be doing a lot of researching and posting. Have fun proving that every crime committed in Australia for the last century is really America's fault!

By the way, a very large percentage of Armies world-wide use American weapons. That doesn't mean that America provided them. Do you really call this any kind of evidence?

In 1991, U.S. journalists Allan Nairn and Amy Goodman were in Dili, the capital of East Timor, covering a peaceful memorial procession, when Indonesian troops -- armed with U.S. weapons -- opened fire, killing some 270 people. Though Nairn was severely beaten, he and Goodman were able to get out alive and they spread the word of the massacre around the world. (A photojournalist hiding behind a tombstone was also able to smuggle out videotape of the slaughter.)

East Timor war crimes inquiry

David Fickling in Sydney

Friday October 4, 2002

The Guardian

UN investigators have dug up the bodies of two Timorese fighters in an investigation into war crimes allegations against Australian SAS troops.

The bodies were buried in a mass grave on the outskirts of the East Timorese capital, Dili, and were exhumed at the end of August. They are expected to be examined shortly.

The allegations concern an incident on October 6 1999, shortly after Australian peace keeping troops were sent to Timor to end the bloodshed caused by pro-Indonesian militias after East Timor's vote for independence.

Two Australian SAS soldiers were injured in an ambush close to the border between east and west Timor. Two militia fighters were killed and nine captured.

A joint investigation by the UN, Australian police and military police is looking at allegations against SAS forces, including claims of torture, and that one of the victims was executed by Australian troops. Sydney's Daily Telegraph newspaper reported yesterday that investigators were trying to determine whether one of the dead had been shot at point-blank range.

Until 1998, the Australian SAS had maintained close ties with Indonesia's infamous special forces regiment, Kopassus, and the former pro-Indonesia militia leader, Joni Marques, claimed that he had been trained by the SAS.

Australian S.A.S. Diggers trained me, says East Timorese nun-killing accused

AN EAST Timorese militia leader who served in the Indonesian army's special forces and is now on trial for war crimes, including the murder of a nun, has testified that he received military training from Australian soldiers.

He has told a Dili war crimes hearing that he played the role of a Falintil pro-independence guerilla in a training exercise involving Australian and Indonesian troops in Java in 1993.

Joni Marques, 37, helped the Indonesian military set up in 1986 Team Alpha, one of the first pro-Indonesian militias in East Timor and was recruited to Kopassus, Indonesia's special forces.

THE WEST AUSTRALIAN SATURDAY AUGUST 11 2001 53

"Diggers trained me: war crimes accused"

By Mark Dodd in DILI and

Craig Skehan in CANBERRA

Australian military sources said the Australian unit most likely to have been involved in the exercise was the elite Perth-based Special Air Service Regiment.

The SAS took part in several exercises with Kopassus in the early 1990s.

An SAS Regiment spokesman declined to comment on whether anyone linked to Timorese militia had been involved in training. It is not the regiment's policy to comment on its training activities.

Australia abandoned the exercises in 1998 after months of damaging publicity over the Indonesian unit's human rights record. Kopassus is accused of widespread abuse in East Timor, Aceh, Irian Jaya (West Papua) and elsewhere.

A Defence Department spokesman, Tim Bloomfield, said it was a matter of record that the Australian Defence Force trained Indonesian army personnel but he said: "It was not until 1998 that there were militias as we now know them."

"We certainly have not trained any militias," he said.

A spokesman for Foreign Affairs Minister Alexander Downer said questions about training Indonesian personnel by Australia were a matter for the former Labor government and Opposition Leader Kim Beazley, who was defence minister at the time.

But the former Labor government foreign affairs minister, Gareth Evans, said last month "many of our earlier training efforts helped only to produce more professional human rights abusers."

Testifying in East Timor's first war crimes trial on July 11, Mr Marques, an East Timorese, did not identify the Australian unit involved in his training. He said that in war games devised by the Australians he had played an East Timorese independence (Falintil) guerilla being pursued by Australian troops.

Mr Marques is one of 10 defendants, all members of Team Alpha, which he commanded, facing 13 counts of murder, assault, kidnapping, torture, persecution and forced deportation of civilians between April and September 1999.

A serving member of Kopassus, Lt Saiful Anwar, is also charged. He is believed to be at large in Indonesia.

The prosecution alleges Mr Marques participated in the torture and murder of Evaristo Lopes, a member of Falintil, in April 1999. He allegedly also planned the ambush and murder of a group of clergy, church workers, an Indonesian journalist and a teenage boy near Los Palos on September 25, 1999.

He is accused of shooting dead a wounded nun at point blank range.

In court, Mr Marques testified he had been selected for specialist training by the former Kopassus commander, Lt-Gen. Prabowo Subianto, son-in-law of disgraced former president Suharto.

He said the training took place in 1984 at Los Palos and Bandung, Java, in 1993. Australian soldiers were involved in the Bandung training.

Asked by public defender Siphosami Malunga how the training was conducted, Mr Marques replied: "It was guerilla warfare. We trained together."

Asked about his specific role in the training, he said: "At the time my role was as a Fretilin (independence guerilla) member in the training."

Mr Malunga: "In the exercise, what was the Australian army's role?"

Mr Marques: "The Australian troops tried to catch me."

SAS training involves anti-terrorism, clandestine operations, counter-insurgency, surveillance and demolition.

-- SYDNEY MORNING HERALD

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The West Australian, "Diggers trained me: war crimes accused" by Mark Dodd and Craig Skehan, Saturday August 11 2001, p. 53

© 2001 West Australian Newspapers Limited

Most of us, myself included, are not military historians or currently serving in a capacity that we would have a real overview of which units are rated "most effective". So ultimately we end up touting the ones we know the best, or have some sort of attachment to.

No one denigrates the British SAS or other various similar units. They have proven themselves many times. Not to say they are always successful, but no such group tasked with extremely hazardous assignments ever is. The same goes for any US unit or whatever country of choice you want to name.

Jeepz

As usual, Jeepz says it best.

Very interesting. I don't know a lot about either one, other than what I found out in the books that I mentioned.

"The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in combat".

But, on the other hand, books improve your mind.

Why don't you tell us? This thread is your chance to prove that you know something, about something, isn't it?

Australia's dirty little Secret

East Timor is a nation of some 800,000 inhabitants located on a small island, about 700km north of Australia. The western half had been a Dutch colony and became part of Indonesia after World War II. But the eastern half, which had been ruled for three centuries by Portugal, was given its independence with the collapse of the Portuguese empire in 1975.

Indonesia invaded the former colony in December 1975, formally annexing it the following year. Indonesia's military is estimated to have killed up to 200,000 Timorese and guerrilla leader Xanana Gusmao and 1996 Nobel Peace Prize winners Jose Ramos Horta and Bishop Carlos Belo have been fighting for East Timor's independence for 25 years.

In January 1999, Indonesian President BJ Habibie attempted to boost his international credibility by offering East Timor a referendum on its status. In the August poll, 78 percent of the electorate chose independence, but pro-Indonesia militias - backed by Indonesian military officers - launched a reign of terror against the pro-independence majority.

Australia's handling of East Timor is one of the most shameful episodes of Australian foreign policy. Until last year, when the Australian Government finally sent a peace keeping force to a nation devastated by the pro-Indonesian militia, successive federal governments have turned a blind eye to Indonesia's often brutal efforts to subdue the rebellious East Timorese.

Secret government papers released on September 12 2000 confirm that the then Labour government was fully aware of Indonesia's planned invasion and subsequent occupation of East Timor in 1975. The Australian government was also aware of the invasion plans prior to an attack which killed three Australian journalists ñ an allegation which has been denied for 25 years.

Even more damning is proof that Australia's official diplomatic records on East Timor were "sanitised", and did not accurately record talks between Australia and Indonesia.

For a quarter of a century, a central tenet of Australian foreign policy

has been that "friendship" with Indonesia has been more important than the rights and lives of the East Timorese.

What-ever, dummy.

Yeah, but I loved the book, the Chris Ryan "sequels" and the clones (The Real Bravo Two Zero)!

Is there really a need to go on and on ad-nauseum about George Bush and American politics here? You'd think we'd get a break from it in Thailand but some people just won't shut up about it.

If it directly relates to Thailand, fine but if it's just someones personal crusade that nobody else cares about then take it elsewhere PLEASE!

Well, I'm on your side, close it down!, but as long as this remains the "Everybody Else Against America" (i.e. the Bear-Pit) Forum, Georgie-Porgie will be manning his lonely post!

Actually Axel, I went back and looked at the gentleman's old posts, just to make sure that my memory was accurate about who started this. What made me a little sad was that he really was a gentleman until he started the America-bashing and U.S. conspiracy posts. From then on he is just bitter and nasty.

Actually he seemed like a happy, pretty nice guy.

I get no great pleasure out of ripping him apart. I don't really care if someone is bright, or not, if they leave me alone and mind their own business. The only reason that I keep pointing out his intellectual inadequacies, is because of his remarks about most Americans "being stupid", some of his really nutty "conspiracy" posts and also, to remind him that on this forum, we are battling with our minds.

He is right that knowing correct punctuation, spelling and grammar doesn't mean that someone is necessarily intelligent, but when one is trying to convince others of their point of view on a written forum, these tools are an invaluable resource. If one doesn't have these skills, then one is going to come off looking like a dummy no matter what they say or do.

Someone in this position who wants to participate on here should either keep their negative views to themselves, run out and quickly get, at least, a High School education, or be prepared to have their heads ripped off every time they log in, without any chance to ever come out on top.

A word to the wise.

It is so nice to be appreciated!

Mr. Basher, as one who has lived for here many, many years, I can tell you that we Expats adapt a Mai Pen Rai attitude towards our benefactors. In other words, I would put a Thai wearing a Osama Bin Ladin T-shirt in the same category as a Thai wearing a Mickey Mouse T-shirt, and believe me, it would have about the same significance.

My how short your memory is illiterate one. This incident that you mention was after a fairly long truce between you and I, when you had refrained from any anti-American postings. I am talking about when I first let you have a taste of my wrath!

Now, are you going to apologize, for once again being so miserably wrong?

Pop-up dummy. You are a glutten for punishment.

This is what one sees painted on your Pop-up dummy face every time that I knock you over again:

The UK probably has the best, but then I'm biased.

The septics are very good at spending money on weapons systems but the less said about their forces, elite or otherwise, the better.

I'm not trying to get into a tiff about something as silly as who has the "best" Special Forces, but just read Bravo Two Zero and all it's clones to see how often British f--- up missions; Getting lost seems almost required.

I doubt if they're all that much better than our guys.

Debating which group is the best or toughest is simply an invitation to a bar fight (grin).  Navy Seals probably have the highest failure rate "regularly constituted special forces".  At least in the USA.  The green berets of the US Army and certain units of the US Marines are also quite effective groups that fall under the "special forces" heading. 

Navy Seals probably have the highest failure rate "regularly constituted special forces".

What this means, is that more people wash out (quit or are thrown out )of Navy Seals "Boot Camp" than from other Elite Units' initial training.

Yeah, ulcer medication, but just to explain, the dog raping thing is on another thread, and "the gentleman" mentions a Navy guy raping his shipmate. They didn't come from my fevered imagination!

I kind of get your point, but I really find the concept of raping women to be totally abhorrent, although I must admit, the thought of raping dogs or other (Navy) guys, did kind of raise a snicker.

...becoming a US-bashing/defending, which I do not tolerate as it does not lead to anything.

Axel, I am sorry to respectfully disagree, but this "... becoming a US-bashing/defending, which I do not tolerate as it does not lead to anything" is what the Bear-Pit, and the posts before that, that led to the Bear-Pit, were mostly always about.

You have to go back to the beginning if you want your advice to be worth anything.

Almost every one of The Defenders has admitted that they are not Bush fans. We are just tired of constant bashing of the US in general.

The initial posts by "the gentleman" that pissed me off so much that I started commenting on them, were about how "stupid" Americans in general are. He, and some other illiterates, were laughing like hyenas about all the "morons" in the US. This is a guy who can barely spell his own name.

That is why I am completely justified in constantly pointing out all the gentleman's own inadequacies in this area, and probably why I haven't been thrown off for doing so.

Hmmm, does somebody really care about what country has the best special forces

military is the second power in one country

is James Bond consider a Special Forces

Now I've figured out who "the gentleman" was really training!

I don't consider myself to be a prude, but I see nothing funny about rape, under any circumstances.

###### Posted: Sun 2004-02-08, 01:25:10

Administrator / Whipping Boy

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I am leaving it alone. I agree with Doc. You are a nutter. Quite harmless, nutter none the less.

dr_Pat_Pong Posted: Sat 2004-02-07, 23:35:15  

Dr.

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You are a complete nutter Dave.