Georgie-Porgie

Here are just a few examples of scholars who disagree with the "the cynic." It took me about 3 minutes to find them.

There is more ambiguity--more shadows and fog--in the official biographies regarding the period from 1934 to 1938. Recently opened archives in Moscow show that Ho was subjected to Stalinist discipline there. He was required to undergo re-education for failing to display the proper class spirit and identify with the international proletariat.

The responsibility for the war falls to the French and to Charles de Gaulle, who wanted to re-establish the French Empire after World War II. Even the French communists rallied to support this policy. And what about the Americans? Truman abandoned Roosevelt's anti-colonial policy and supported French imperial aspirations. And who undermined the 1954 Geneva Accords and prevented the general elections in 1956? U.S. officials, who also ignored letters from Ho pleading for support.

Ho Chi Minh was one of the most amazing, well-traveled and culturally experienced leaders of this century. I had no idea that he had spent some time in the U.S., working as a steward on a ship so that he could travel and experience other cultures. His reasoning was that he needed to understand other cultures if he was to deal with them. To me, this is the strongest argument in favor of his being a nationalist first and a communist second. As his adventures are chronicled, you realize that this was a very idealistic man who held one idea uppermost in mind, namely independence for Vietnam. Traveling around the world by working as a menial and spending his few earnings to write independence literature does not seem to be the behavior of a communist agent.

The policies of the Western democracies pushed Ho and his people into the open arms of the Soviet Union and China. He took their tanks, ships, airplanes and missiles, but he refused to allow foreign combat troops on Vietnamese soil. And he declined Russian and Chinese advice on how to conduct the war.

As always, it's impossible to fathom the Liberal rational.

The only people whom liberals absolutely refuse to hold accountable for anything are their friends, the Islamofascists.

Truer words were never spoken. It's not their fault that they are worthless, murdering dirtbags: Everything and anything is Uncle Sam's fault. Wa. Wa. Wa!

I hope that he lets the bars stay open later!

What has this got to do with living in Thailand??

Very good question.

More politically correct lies. It is pretty well known that Ho Chi Minh was a Communist because they were the only ones who would support his revolution, and that is what he really cared about. In other words, he wasn't really a Communist; He was a pragmatist.

As far as Bin Ladin goes, using pepe le' pew's schizoid logic, whoever gave him his initial military training, would have "created the monster". I have never read anywhere that we were the ones who gave him his first military training.

In fact, I have often read the opposite, that the group that Bin Ladin was part of disdained any help, of any type, from the US.

In either case, as Jeepz says, a little help fighting the Evil Empire hardly makes Bin Ladin a CIA operative.

The answers many of you seek lies in the minds of the people who do these things!!!!  You can guess all you want and come up with numerous conclusions of this and that and why and for what reason.  Understand

Until you are within the minds of another to see and to probe in understanding what makes this other person tick tock like the clock, you will never get the real answers you seek.

Therefore what has prevailed will again prevail at a later time from another and the cycle has over the course of time repeated itself to remind us of our past mistakes and ignorance.

Last of all, whatever the reasons one has might be a valid reason to them and to their counterparts, but to others this very same reason of validity is not acceptable.    So where one draws the line in and by means of compromise is itself one of the challenges mankind struggles even to this day to meet and seek the peace which will never be found until Righteousness appears and makes such presence known to us all.  At that time the keys to understanding each other shall perhaps be revealed to us all.

Trust me, that is when the real shock begins!!!!!!!!!!!!    and that is when the real fear will set in to each and every one of us humans that are alive at that moment of time.

Daveyoti

You wasted an awful lot of space to say that you have no fukcing idea!

adjan jb~

CIA didn't exist at the time you are referencing.  Ho Chi Minh was a leader in the anti-Japanese resistance movement.  He worked with OSS agents.  In fact an OSS agent saved his life when he was very ill. 

Making the leap that he "worked" for the CIA is bit much.  This is the same sort activity or similiar to red painting that Joe McArthy was famous for.  Ho Chi Minh was a nationalist with socialist leanings.  However, I have read that he did have some favorable attitude toward the USA at the end of WWII.  But the political intrigues, shifting alliances, and so forth, caused the USA to accede to France's return to SEA as a colonial entity.  Ho Chi Minh didn't appreciate that.  And none of it makes him a CIA lackey.

This sort of guilt by association would make the USA a Communist entity, simply because we were aligned with them for a period of time during WWII.  It ignores all other activities by both parties, changes of attitudes, etc. 

Bin Laden accepted assistance from the CIA during the Cold War while we opposed their entry into Afghanistan.  Doesn't make him a CIA operative in everything he does for the rest of his life.  Same for Castro.  He tried out for US Major League baseball team, if I remember correctly.  So he's really a closet agent of National League? 

And hey, Captain Kangaroo just passed away.  He was totally apolitical.  He basically took care of kids regardless of whatever political orientation their parents had.  So let's leave him off the motley crew of bad guys, eh?

Jeepz

Eloquent Jeepz! A blow for truth and honesty. These types of politically correct stereo-types, myths and lies are exactly what I keep complaining about. Take them away, and you take away 95% of plachon, pepe, Butterfly and adjan jb's repertoire of so-called "facts".

let me get this straight: I get pulled up for being considered by some to be off topic. But as long as I qualify whatever I say here with "I know this is a bit off topic but....." then its OK?

I know I am new to this politics forum, but I am confused.

QUOTE (george @ Mon 2004-01-26, 06:03:35)A bit off topic but:

All the Moo Baan's got their loans, and most of them have paid it back. As soon as the loans are due, they pay back and get anotber loan the following week.

Circulation. TiT.

No, you need to be the guy that owns the web-site

Yes, as I recall, according to you lefties, Pol Pot was on the CIA payroll, wasn't he? And Bin Ladin? Bin Ladin was his Commanding Officer if I remember correctly? Or was it the other way around? Elvis Presley was Captain. Lee Harvey Oswald was First Lieutenant. John Wayne Gassey was Gunner's Mate. Captain Kangaroo was a PFC. The CIA was really wild back in those days!

QUOTE: (Boon Mee @ Tue 2004-01-27, 03:08:28)

The great silent majority who use rational, pragmatic, objective thinking will, in the end, prevail. 

OK, then answer this question? Why did Jack the Ripper butcher young women? I guarantee that you can't answer it satisfactorily.

You "intellectuals" have to sit around and rack your brains and ponder the universe and make up all kinds of nutty excuses for terrorists and murderers and pretend that they have good reasons for the evil things that they are doing.

Well they don't.

People like you provide them with false excuses, you furnish human garbage with lies.

Usually the simplest answer is the best.

They are evil.

Semper Fi, SoCal. Will await your return.

Plachon, how conceited can you be, that the political aware ones are the ones that agree with you?

As to plachon's assertion that:

Anybody with even a hint of political consciousness from that era will recall the anti-US rallies and how Songs for Life artists such as Caravan penned numbers lamenting Uncle Sam's presence on Thai soil.

Have you ever heard the word "fashion" plachon. Everyone in the world was protesting against Vietnam back then -even me- , but mostly it was just a way to get laid, nothing to use as evidence in a political argument.

Boon Mee, more excellent points. You know I agree!

plachon, would you say that someone who got angry at an acquaintance and slapped them briskly across the face should be charged with the same crime as Charles Manson or Ted Bundy?

Your comparisons are completely silly and senseless, and I'm afraid, so are you.

No wonder they call you guys Left-Wing Loonies!

1). Why Hans Blix was not giving a chance to finish his job ?

2). I have one question nobody has answered so far: why were the US targeted on 9-11 ?

2). The same reason that Nazi Germany killed millions of Jews, Gays and Gypsies. The same reason that a Russian serial killer murdered dozens of his fellow citizens. The same reason that innocent Israeli athletes were slaughtered at the Olympics. The same reason that a bomb exploded in Olympic Park in Atlanta; A bomb expolded in Bali. The same reason that black people were enslaved and young children are raped and murdered every day.

Evil.

Before the war, I had some american friends. They used to come to my home where they could listen to the Grateful Dead, Tim Buckley, Bob Dylan, Jefferson Airplane, Tom Waits, etc... Anyway, some music that's not that common in Thaïland. Since that, they don't come anymore. They don't even say hello in the street. They have unilateraly decided that I was not a friend anymore because my country was opposed to this war. Because I was also opposed to this war. They have denied me the right to disagree, the right to dissent.

Those f***ing morons (they deserve this one because they are all democrats) have put an end to  our friendship because according to them there were no alternatives: I was with them or I was agaisnt them.

BRAINWASHED !

Mai pen rai,  I still enjoy Dylan, the Dead and Country Joe and the Fish:

And it's one, two, three

what are we fighting for ?

Don't ask me I don't give a ######

Next stop is Vietnam

And it' five, six, seven

open the pearly gate

well, there's no time to wonder why

Whoppee! We're all goin' to die !!

adjan jb, sorry about your experience. I don't know you other than here, so I can't say if it was your your fault (something about your out-spokeness), or if the Americans were on the lower end of the American scale.

I know that up here, all different nationalities hang around together and we've had no problem with any of this. In fact, when we argue about it, at all, it is usually about Tony Blair. Americans love him, but Brits don't, however, most of my English freinds admit through gritted teeth that they support George and Tony's policies, they just don't like the men and they don't like the way that they have gone about carrying the policies out.

pepe, more likely is France on its knees, in front of Uncle Sam, once again, begging us for help.

This time, while you are down there, how about doing what you are so famous for? How about some gratitude for saving your chicken-sh1t asses!

That's right Georgie - like Winston Churchill said:  "If you're not a Liberal at age 18 you've got no heart.  And if you're not a conservative at age 40, you've got no Head"

Boon Mee

Boon Mee, I LOVE your posts!!!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S. Winston Churchill was really American

Benny A (Benedict Arnold)! I thought that you were tired of being correctly identified as a traitor, but here you are with another bullshit, traitorous post. Just remember what ended up happening to Judas once he spent the silver pieces!

Here are my experiences, as opposed to yours.

Americans...are encountering a big increase in anti-American feelings (largely due to Bush's policies).

I work with the public and tell everyone that I am American and have had no negative encounters. NONE.

What have your personal experiences been in Thailand with this?

Before George Bush, the most common reaction I had to telling everyday Thai people I am American was a smile and often the phrase "number one country."

Since the post 9/11 policies of Bush, when I say I am American, the most often reaction is an awkward silence.

Funny, I still get the same old smile and, "America number one".

In my case, I make it a point to express my sincere dislike of George Bush (mai chawp Bush, Bush mai dee), and the reaction is usually curiosity that an American would openly tell a foreigner that he feels like this.

As an experiment a while back, a friend and I spend a week posing as Canadians. This is a common tactic of Americans during times like these. The reactions were markedly different! Upon announcing our loyalty to the maple leaf flag, the most common reaction was an immediate, frank statement of dislike of Bush and the power of America! Something most Thais would never tell an American to his face.

I never masquerade as Canadian, but I have Canadian friends, Aussie friends, and British friends and they all assure me that all us Farangs are pretty much the same to the khon Thai, and that they don't spend much time discussing international politics. Are you really trying to pretend otherwise?

Sorry Benny A., but I think that there is a big difference between the way that things are, and the way that you wish things were!

I guess that this will teach me to be careful what I ask for. I might get it.

By the way, I was an Anarchist too...when I was 17.

Here we go again - comparing GWB to Hitler, Attilla the Hun and God knows who else.

Bush is the most dangerous terrorist (in my opinion) to ever exist in this world. He is a threat to every nation

undone by Bush because of his hatred towards all good things. This man is like Satan himself.

I think he has gone insane.

I can safely bet every country in the world patiently awaits the next presidential elections to get this insane person out of office pronto.

Yeah, yeah, worse than Hitler.

plachon, have you been taking your Alzheimer's medicine?

plachon Posted: Mon 2004-01-26, 02:05:10

You're letting your latent racism shine through again man!

KevinN Posted: Mon 2004-01-26, 04:05:16

Do not pay too much attn. everything that some one disagrees with they will call you RACIST anymore,it is one of the most mis-used words in the english language.

More "thoughts" from plachon:

plachon Posted: Mon 2004-01-26, 02:05:10

Hence, there was the vilification of Jews, gypsies, gays, etc. even before the death camps were conceived as the "final solution". Pretty much as we've been seeing in US with Muslims, "lefties" (one of your favourite taunts), and anyone who doesn't happen to fit into the mainstream corporate model.

For example:

And by the way, explain some of the differences between anti-globalization and neo-colonialism protesters getting "smashed in the streets" in Seattle, Genoa, Davos, etc., and Gandhi's salt marches, anti-colonialism protests 60 - 80 years ago.

Yeah, so what?" What does that have to with whether Gandhi's tactics would have worked against the Nazis? Against Japan? What is your point?

Where are adjan jb and ######. They are lefties with brains that are still functioning.

Also, many people feel that Gandhi would have simply been smashed into the street if he had not been dealing with a moral, white, Christian nation with a sense of fair-play; If he had to contend with Nazis or other true Fascists? What do you  think?

I may be quite thick, but I sense a certain background problem.

I assumed we were discussing (in Ghandi) the elder, Mahatma. I was under the impression, that he was in fact an Indian chap, leading Indians.

This IMHO means that he was in fact leading brown, hindu chaps as opposed to white xtians. Or are you referring to the other side of the fence, England, as in "dealing with"? It isn't very clear.

What am I missing here?

Sorry, not very clearly written.

Mahatma Gandhi was trying to get the British to leave India by using peaceful means, and he succeeded, but some historians believe that he would have failed dismally if dealing with a less moral nation, say Nazi Germany. His peaceful tactics would have been useless against a nation without a conscience, calling into question the usefulness of non-violent protest and revolution against true oppressors. Do you think that Gandhi's (or Martin Luther King's) techniques would have defeated the Nazis?

What puzzles me most about the Bangkok Post are its lack of western-style investigative journalism and seeming inability to follow through comprehensively on stories of genuine interest.

With regard to the second point, whatever happened to that son of a famous politician who was charged with the shooting of a policeman at a Bangkok night club.

Additionally, a New Zealander (Ian Travis John) was shot dead on the orders of a rival Bangkok-based boiler-room operator called (I think) Mr Muller. I read that Mr Muller had been arrested in America and subsequently extradited to Thailand, but I have heard nothing since. 

Much of the international content culled from Reuters and Ap is fine, interesting and appropriate. But the local coverage seems often to be wanting in depth and editorial "spice".

On  the whole though, I like the paper; I enjoy the ramblings of "crutch" and applaud the decision to dispense with the services of that worn out loser, Bernard Trink.

How does one go about reporting a fake posting? I am a big Johnny Moron fan, and this is not Johnny Moron!

I also suggest you remember what ultimately happened to MLK Jr. and why the USA honors his memory on Jan 14. People who perpetrate these kind of atrocities are no more rational than Muslims simply because they are white. Gandhi certainly had something similar to contend with and his solution worked fairly well.

Some food for thought:

Would you disagree that the real reason that that US Government honors Martin Luther King is in order to make people feel that one can change the system peacefully? In other words, to keep radicals from being radical?

Also, many people feel that Gandhi would have simply been smashed into the street if he had not been dealing with a moral, white, Christian nation with a sense of fair-play; If he had to contend with Nazis or other true Fascists? What do you think?