beginner

Raimon Land are promoting 14 units in Northpoint, Pattaya at 26% off listed price and 13% off 15 units in the River, Bangkok.

They also have a display advertisement in the Bangkok Post (p16) today offering Northpoint units at 4.5 million baht.

Is this the start of a general price adjustment for condos aimed at farangs? Most observers of the Pattaya market have been expecting the apparent huge oversupply and frantic promotion of speculative new buildings by developers to eventually lead to a price crash.

Reliable sales statistics are not published here so most knowledge is anecdotal or provided by people with a vested interest. Consequently the pessimists or perhaps buyers claim that very that few condos are actually selling unless they are 'realistically' priced. ie half price or 50 cents on the dollar

The optimists or perhaps sellers claim that all is well in a slow market. Prices are holding up well and anyway exchange rate fluctuations mean that farang sellers can break even if repatriating cash at lower than original purchase prices.

Is the Pattaya condo market about to follow the stagnant house market where hardly anything is selling? Will the new type of tourist from India and Iran and Asia replace the missing farang buyers?

What do our experts think about all this?

I'm tempted to delete them all but the Richards clip ....power rush building up....

Got to agree that this is a great performance.

Prince is also a great live performer. In a two hour set he can bring the audience up to a state of sensory overload and hysteria three or four times. Its a shattering mind blowing experience to be in the audience when he has one of those nights.

Prince is also a man who will drop into a local rock club when on tour and gig with the band when he is in town. A strange but likeable muso at heart.

A bit like the mysterious sighting (or fantasy) of JP at the Blues Factory.

Before dealing with the Thai whores on Beach Road, perhaps the East European hookers should be cleared away.

How do they work in their own designated bar on Walking Street? They don't have work permits, so should be deported............but obviously like everything in Thailand..........palms are greased!

Who are they bothering?

That's a Thai immigration and also a mafia matter. Beyond the scope of this topic.

My views are purely social libertarian. Do as you please as long as what you are doing doesn't spoil the quality of life for other people. So I hate when people smoke in restaurants because they are fouling up other people's enjoyment. Same difference for the street whores, it is a total occupation of that prime real estate spoiling it for anyone other than hookers and johns.

On what basis are you saying that it is spoiling it for anyone other than hookers and johns?

Is Walking Street spoiled in the same way? I see hundreds of curious tour groups including family groups who are very interested and curious to see the famous street.

Maybe the average tourist rather enjoys a stroll down the exotic hooker laden beach road. Where else can one see such sights? It obviously doesn't appeal to JT but then JT is not the average tourist is he?

I walk down the beach most nights at varying times and have never been offended by the hookers but often annoyed by the crude and insulting behaviour of the johns to some of the girls. Small groups of Indian looking gentlemen seem to have the worse attitude to the girls. More than once I have heard a girl call after the groping leering negotiator walks on 'go <deleted> your mother/dog'.

Much more worrying to me are the Ladyboys who hang out between Klang and The Hard Rock Hotel. They brazenly grab likely looking victims and pick their pockets whilst the confused and overwhelmed victim tries to fight off their groping and kissing. This goes on every single night.

JT go and have a look at them and perhaps you can start a campaign to rid the beach of thieves rather than the often desperate but good natured and essentially harmless street walkers.

Hi JohninBkk,

Did you manage to fire sale your house in Jomtien.

Did Arjay sell it for you?

Was that one of your portfolio that returns 9 to 12% net per annum?

John 081 376 1773

Valuation 10.6

FIRE SALE 8.6 inc full furniture

Baht : 69,000 inclusive:

DETAILS; 200 yards from jomtien beach and restaurants…

1. Single level house

2. 3 bedrooms

Stock Market Crash Biggest Stock Market Crash Dow Jones History

Thanks for posting that link Churchill.

Its hilariously funny. I'm not sure the commentator intended to be funny but there you are. More fun than WWF. (theatrical wrestling entertainment).

what else can i tell you?

I don't know, you could always tell us how big your house is and how rich you are again.

i am convinced that any of my houses is bigger than yours (assuming you own one... which i doubt) and that goes for my financial holdings too.

next!

Yes, very droll.

But. Why would any rational rich man be concerned about paying tax? Tax is only paid on profits and most business people are able to use the skills of accountants and lawyers to lawfully avoid the worst excesses of the taxation systems.

It is not necessary to move offshore and live in an underdeveloped and rather unstable country where money spent on property is generally money gone. What you have 'saved' by not paying tax will most likely be 'lost' in due course as a result of the lack of enforced regulations here and Thai peoples amazing ability to transfer wealth from farangs to Thais.

If it makes you happy let us agree that any of your houses is bigger than mine but I at least own the land my properties are built on. Many people here take out a thirty year lease which in effect is paying thirty years rent in advance. Not sure that 'own' is the correct word.

Presumably it was Germany that gave you the education and wherewithall to make a financial success of your life. Don't you feel you owe Germany something? Don't those struggling immigrants and other low earners deserve a helping hand from those who are more than able to assist?

Avoiding tax seems like a very poor reason for choosing to live anywhere. The same truism is often said of financial investments. The worst reason for making an investment is to avoid tax. Other things being equal, a tax efficient investment is better. But tax considerations should only apply after all other factors are assessed, not as the first.

Many expats here pay taxes in farangland and have no qualms about it. There is a lot of waste as JSixpack said above but that's life. Nothing is perfect.

Be happy.

Right. My salary here is more than double what I would get in Australia. The house I bought here would cost triple in Australia.

***Handy tip: Don't get involved with a bar girl. That's a free one.

EXACTLY. And if you've actually got a well paid job, how much of it would you lose to that mob of parasites that calls itself a government. My number one reason for residing in Thailand, or anywhere in Asia for that matter, is tax avoidance. If I had still been living back in OZ, over the past 4 years, I would've lost USD 250 K of my earnings in tax. Is there anywhere in the western world where one can buy a 4 bedroom, 4 bathroom house for USD 150 K? The answer of course is no. How many countries in the western world, with the exception perhaps of Australia, is there a future for the average man on the street? The USA and the UK? From what I've been reading, the economies there are crap and riddled with debt. Asia is where the future is. It's just a matter of having your shit together and making a life for yourself in this part of the world. Let all the whining losers go home.

BINGO!!! i am getting stupid stares from people when i tell them i live with my wife a rather luxurious life in Thailand and it does not cost us a single penny because all our expenses (and there's even a big surplus left) is paid for by the forty-plus percent income tax that we don't pay in our home country Germany. tax avoidance seems to be something that doesn't exist for most of the resident whiners who leave or plan to leave Thailand and i therefore conclude that they were always earning peanut amounts below any taxation level.

NAAM. This is as they say, a point of view.

Why on earth would it worry you that you pay tax to your homeland for the many benefits of living there? You still would have 60% left of a considerable sum if your posts are to be believed. (I am sure they are). Nobody enjoys paying tax but its one of the costs of living in a civilised country which attempts to take care of its infrastructure and its citizens less financially lucky/fortunate than ourselves.

Also, you would not have sunk a large sum of money into a property that you will never be able to sell at anything like its cost to you. From your descriptions it is a very unusual farang design that appeals to you but would probably leave most people saying, 'But why?' Thais rarely buy such secondhand houses on the Darkside. One agent claims to be listing over three thousand Darkside properties. Who will ever buy them at anything like their original sale prices? You would not have this problem in Germany.

Your health problems were taken care of in Germany not Thailand. Next time, you may not be well enough to travel to the health service of your choice.

You often say to those who advise against 'buying' houses here that in reality they probably can not afford it. I won't repeat the usual responses from people who are more than able to afford just about anything they like here but nevertheless prefer to rent for reasons that make sense to them. (They also have a point of view).

Is it possible that people who claim to be reluctant to pay a proportion of their income in tax, in fact, have very small incomes to start with?

I enjoy your posts and wish you a long and happy life but you can not take it with you. Or as some say "there are no pockets in shrouds".

Northpoint Bargain! one bedroom 67m2 in foreign name,on 22nd floor,now complete,cost 7.3million baht 3 years ago off-plan,willing to accept 7.3million baht now for quick sale. For further info..........

Only when we'll see at least 20-30 ads like this then we can talk about trend.

The key to success is to anticipate the trend, not to wait until everyone has figured it out.

An Alan Bolton classified advertisement

An 80sqm 1 Bedroom, 1 Bathroom Condominium offered for sale at just 7,200,000Baht. Just 90,000 per sqm compared to the average price of 110-120 Baht sqm. Get on the phone..............

Advertising flyer inserted in Pattaya papers this week.

Hyde Park Residence Building 2Located on Thrappraya Soi 4

All suites only 1,590,000 baht.

Fully furnished

from original 2,590,000 baht

12 payments of 132,500 baht

50% Contract 50% Upon Completion

10% Discount for cash

etc...........

No, but you are really way off. I accept that you are trying to position the pattaya market as a hard and an over-rated sector, which it very much is, but:

Northpoint really is virtually finished, quite a few re-sales recently - fact - you may not know but others do, and I have no vested interest. It will finish very soon and a huge number of buyers are transferring right now. If some (or many) foriegn quota bookers were to pull out this is where the 'open' market demand is (for foreign quota) - how this is a problem? as the developer keeps the substantial deposit and re-sells very easily.

QUOTE Pattaya Mail advertisement Friday 12th March 2010 page 36.

Northpoint Bargain! one bedroom 67m2 in foreign name,on 22nd floor,now complete,cost 7.3million baht 3 years ago off-plan,willing to accept 7.3million baht now for quick sale. For further info..........

By the way, Major just commenced construction of its Reflection condo in Jomtien. Prices >100K psqm.

Thanks for the information. It will provide us all with another project to discuss and enjoy.

If the plans are unchanged, it was described some time ago as a Six Star twin tower project of 55 and 42 stories. Its quite a project for a relatively young company.

Its tempting to be sarcastic and say that another 97 floors of condos in Jomtien is exactly what is needed. Rather like beer bars. Surely you can not have too many?

The style of the first renderings I saw of it were very like the Waterfront. Lets hope it progresses more successfully.

Yes. I agree with most of what you say. I think we are basically in agreement.

The Cove and The Sanctuary. Both are fine quality projects and sure to be a success. I think they already are. They both have lots of Thai buyers as well as foreign quotas. Great sites, great views, great amenities and reasonable access.

The Sanctuary Condo environs are now being heavily developed which makes it slightly less attractive. If the Sanctuary of Truth owners ever decide to build next to the condos then it will be very overlooked and hemmed in. But, who can tell? Perhaps it will remain the best undeveloped building site in the area for a long time.

We will have to agree to differ on Northpoint. I know too many people who are trying to offload to think that lots of people are clamouring to pay 110k in those buildings. But maybe I am wrong. Time will tell.

Its The Cliff I am less impressed with. The formula hype reminds me of certain other projects that never materialised.

Regarding The Cliff, this would never have been worth anything close to THB 90k psm, this perception in Pattaya is where the problem starts. The location is secondary (nowhere near the beach) and it is very, very high density.

Well, it is 250 meters to very nice Cosy beach between Pattaya and Jomtien, close to everything. As for density – this project will be built on 3.5 Rai of landscaped land with the ample parking space underground. I've heard Colliers has been doing well selling The Cliff to thais at Siam Paragon and now at Queen Sirikit.

These two points alone establish it as B grade. At THB 90k (an A grade value)...

I would say 110-120K up is current Grade A for Pattaya. It includes The Cove, Northpoint, Sanctuary.

None of the three developments you name are actually finished.

The Cove is some way off.

The Sanctuary is fast approaching completion but new developments are making it much less attractive than originally presented.

Northpoint is attempting to get bookers to pay up and take possession.

Raimon Land are good at painting a rosy picture but the reality is that few bookers are actually in a hurry to pay the balance and move in. They fear rightly or wrongly that if they do it may be many many years before they could re-sell their units and get their money back.

Only when the many flippers who have paid deposits on those hundreds of units actually pay up will it be possible to say that the actual achieved Grade A price is 110-120k.

Flippers who do not have very large cash resources will be hard pressed to complete on their units. Already it is possible to buy at the original off plan prices where the flipper is happy and relieved to get their money back. So called fire sales are setting the real prices not the unrealisable fantasy prices the agents suggest.

The Cliff 'in the heart of cosy beach' is in a secondary location, off the baht bus routes, and is being sold/hyped by all the usual suspects. No doubt the developers and other insiders will profit from early re-sales but it could easily end up as another Pattaya unrealised dream.

Where are you Jack Dawson?

note to self; continue NOT to do "property deals" in thailand

Yes. Yes. Yes.

I am astonished that anyone would make such a convoluted justification for their behaviour on a public forum.

An old political adage is that anything that can not be explained in one simple sentence can not be politically, a good idea.

^the 6% was for 3 year fixed deposit.

I didn't read the maturity for the 5% at Barclays.

Are you expecting interest rates to average more than 6% in the next 3 years Naam?

I don't know what Naam thinks but I reckon 6% for two years is OK but three years makes it a loss leader in my book.

Unfortunately its got many strings attached. Here is an extract from their sales pitch.

Face the savings challenge with confidence

Open a Monthly Saver Account with us and be confident in the knowledge that your money is earning one of the highest rates of interest in the market.

* Enjoy a great return on your savings for the next 12 months with our 5% AER (4.89% gross)2 variable interest rate, if you don’t make any withdrawals

* For 30 days after any withdrawal the interest rate on your remaining balance falls to 0.10% AER2

* Interest paid monthly

* Deposit up to £2,000 a month by standing order (minimum £100)

* Vary the amount you deposit each month

* Take a break any time without penalty

* Easy access to your money online, by phone or through your Relationship Manager (subject to withdrawal penalties)

* Available in sterling for new deposits to Barclays Wealth

Watch your savings grow

With a typical interest rate of 5% AER (4.89% gross)2, if you save £2,000 a month and make no withdrawals, you’ll receive approximately £645 gross interest over the 12 months the account is open

If you are not interested then why are you reading and replying?

The evidence suggests that people on here do give a **** about Glitterman's lectures.

1924 views to one and 1475 to another so far.

Not bad by Pattaya Forum standards.

Ride on Glitterman.

The bank I'm switching to is Standard Bank which is a full service bank.

They are not the one that is offering the 3 year 6% account though.

I'm only interested in them for GBP and USD current accounts.

Thanks for the reply.

Standard Bank eh?

As they say on their website

Banking and other financial services to individual customers and small and medium enterprises in sub-Saharan Africa and Argentina

Wow. You are a brave man. As Thai ladies are fond of saying 'Good luck to you'.

I have no knowledge whatsoever of Standard Bank. They may be the best bank ever for all I know. I guess it all depends on what transactions you are likely to make.

That 6% pa return is a bit elusive. The best I have found is 4.25% from the good old Co-operative Bank in UK. Standard seem to be offering similar very low rates similar to Offshore HSBC. Maybe that's a good sign, after all, high above market rates usually means high risk.

^Just a standard current account in GBP.

0.5% is really not that much better than 0%! I saw 3 year accounts offering 6% last week and can use the 25k I've so far had to park with HSBC to gain more in interest than I'd be paying to HSBC for them to make money using my money.

And the irony is that the bank I'm switching to, banks with.......................HSBC!

If the 'bank' you are switching to banks with HSBC, then I am guessing it is not a full service Bank. There will be delays with all transactions and very few banking options available.

Who is it by the way? I can not see anyone offering/advertising 6% pa on a three year term on the comparison sites. Are there strings attached?

If not then please tell us the good news. Who is it?

^Just a regular Offshore Current Account.

Edit: Many banks now charge you for having money in them but some don't charge if you keet over a certain amount with them (25k in HSBC).

But now HSBC require the minimum amount AND will charge 15 Quid a month, if you don't have the minimum 25k then will charge an extra 20 Quid a month 'underfunding fee'

If you're a Premier Customer though there's no monthly fee but you must keep more than 60k with them, at 0% interest.

So I'm changing to a bank where the minimum requirement is 3,000 Quid and they'll pay me interest on that!

Yes its true that Offshore HSBC will now charge fees for 'Relationship Balances' of under UKP 60k. However you can have that amount in any account including interest paying accounts in sterling or foreign exchange or even investment funds.

There is no doubt that HSBC is targeting high value customers and is happy to lose the others. Their Premier customers do have Personal Relationship Managers and many other services that a high value person might think important.

This strategy also applies to interest rates paid. For example, Bradford and Bingley Offshore pay 2.5% AER on balances over £1000;

Offshore HSBC pay 0.2% for balances over £50,000.

There is no such thing as a free lunch and banks always try to make a profit somewhere. At least Offshore HSBC is being open and transparent on their account charges. They are not the cheapest option across the board but they give a high level of service.

Although 15 quid a month is 15 quid a month. £180 per annum doesn't seem a lot to me for the security and ease of internet use of Offshore HSBC.

as well as utmost tedious banking procedures.

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I agree that local banks have tedious procedures. Living in Thailand certainly helps farangs to develop the virtue of patience.

Once I asked the Customer Service Officer 'what happens to the many copies of my passport they have required me to sign when doing even the most basic tasks such as transferring funds from one account to another'. This is something that is not possible to do online.

We keep them for ten years she replied, apparently with a straight and serious face.

They must have a warehouse the size of an aircraft hanger for each branch if that is true.

To change my home address, Bangkok Bank required signed passport photocopies and separate forms, which were laboriously filled out by hand, for each account. The forms relating to Foreign Exchange Accounts were then faxed to another office. Yet more forms were completed for credit cards and a bank employee was kept busy and me kept waiting, for forty five minutes simply recording a simple change of address.

Eventually one hopes they will join up the dots and enable a record of address to be applied to all accounts.

The chart is a showing of personal net worth. What don't you understand ? If you have allot of debt you are poorer then the person with no debt and 0 dollars.

Thanks Flying.

That cartoon sums it all up beautifully.

A person with debts which can be repaid from an income stream and some assets is better off than the person with neither.

The chart includes debt but not assets.

Is a citizen of the heavily indebted UK any worse off, or poorer as you put it, than a citizen of a country with no external debts.

Are UK citizens poorer or richer than Thais? or the Chinese?

Right got it

UK's F£$K3D!

That is a very pretty graph but what does it mean?

What is the denomination? How was it calculated and by whom? What is the source?

Does it have any validity?

Thanks for the link.

The discussion that follows rather undermines the effect of the bar chart.

Some of the comments include

'The UK national debt is actually £637.4 billion. The figure you quote includes future pension contributions and PFI’s… money they don’t have to pay now and won’t necessarily have to spend.'

also

'As others have noted, there is some conceptual confusion here. Unfortunately, some of your commenters have only added to the confusion.

If you look at the CIA data, you will note that the external debt for the entire world is:

World $ 54,610,000,000,000 31 December 2008 est.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/th...r/2079rank.html

To understand a country’s debt position, external assets also need to be counted. The CIA World Fact Book doesn’t provide this information.'

As someone else said, 'Not wrong, not right but creative'. In other word a comparison of apples with oranges. Its an interesting perspective but not that useful.

I think a better analogy is the Mercedes of Scooters. Reliable, worthy but essentially boring. An old man's transport.

Mercedes? Boring?

What do you smoke?

Yes. OK. I should have said 'certain underpowered Mercedes'.

Nissan Sunny a better comparison.

When Honda put a bigger engine in, it will be more fun. Its underpowered. Too heavy for 125cc.

Unless you are thrilled by the pointless? stop/start mechanism then the Mark 1 PCX is OK but hardly exciting.

While the PXC is the most technically advanced scooter in Thailand at the moment, it's sitting position is not for

a large individual with long legs. Due to the lumbar support, one is forced to assume an unnatural position, that

will get uncomfortable in a short while. I am 6 ' 2 and can't put my feet at the forward rest, arms and knees are bend

unnatural. Basically, I should sit exactly where the lumbar support is. Honda should have several seat options, if the PCX is

intended for a global market.

Yes I agree.

The seat forces a long legged person to sit in an upright position rather like an old lady on a pushbike. It is very uncomfortable after even a short ride.

As the handlebars are bent backwards in a chopper style, the riders arms are also bent into a near ninety degree angle which is unnatural and very tiring.

In Pattaya some of the hire companies have already removed the lumbar support and recovered the seats to cover the two holes left by unbolting the pad. Otherwise the storage bin would fill with water in the rain.

The first tweaks to the design must surely include either straighter handlebars or repositioning them forward and a new seat design.

I found that the unusually upright driving position made it hard to drive over 80kph as the wind buffeting was too great.

It strikes me as strange that a company as 'switched on' as Honda can make such a fundamental design error as that seat. This is a bike aimed at world markets not just Asians. My partner found it too big and heavy and much prefers smaller lighter bikes. Every tall farang owner I have spoken to comments on the seat and driving position unfavourably.

Otherwise a good bike but not as convenient for carrying stuff as a Yamaha Nouvo Elegance. No hooks, no fitting to attach helmets and bags apart from a little and inadequate device that attaches to the seat mechanism.

On a positive note. The rear view mirrors are excellent for a broad shouldered farang. If they are a standard fitting I would advise riders of all bikes to investigate fitting a pair. They give a clear rear view with no blind spot. They are wider than most and this restricts your ability to slide through traffic gaps but they increase your vision considerably.

The combi brakes are also outstanding. In Pattaya they can be the difference between crash or no crash.

A good bike but by no means perfect. The new Yamahas due soon may be better. Someone described ithe PCX as the BMW of scooters. I think a better analogy is the Mercedes of Scooters. Reliable, worthy but essentially boring. An old man's transport. A bit like a japanese fridge. It works with precision and is probably totally reliable but I don't think many people will take the long way home just for the fun of riding it.