beginner

The four items are

1. Check business objectives of the company. If it is found that the company is doing real estate business while there is a foreigner holding company shares together with some Thai nominees or there is a foreigner being a director of the company, the Land Official will investigate to a source of the investment of the Thai nominees. However, the Land Official will refuse to register of such an application by practice.

2. It is appearing that the company was organised by a foreigner or appearing his name in the company's memorandum or appearing his shares being preference shares having majority right to vote in the company or there is a Thai lawyer or Broker holding the main shares in the company, The Land Official will investigate to a source of the investment in such company.

3.It is a requirement that the registered capital of a company must be more than the purchase price of any property. Otherwise, the Land Official will investigate to the source of the investment.

4. In case a company leases a piece of land in a long term basis, investigation will be made to proof whether the land lease is made to benefit or the company is holding the property to the benefit of any foreigner.

Pattaya Expat magazine 16-30 Sept 08 contains an article by Mr Kamnod Soponvasu of Thai Legal and Associates.Pattaya.

It summarises an Official Land Department circular letter marked Most Urgent, sent on 21st July 2008 to all Provincial Governors regarding 'the registration of land ownership or buying land for the benefits of foreigners by using company's name or having a Thai national as a shareholder nominee in the company'.

It outlines four items that will lead to the refusal by the Land Official to register such an application.

The author notes that the measures are almost the same as Foreign Business Act which was postponed last year. "Meanwhile the above measures are temporarily put in use prior the enactment of the Foreign Business Act".

saw extremely low tides this past weekend

what gives????

Autumn Equinox. see tide tables.

Dear ThaiBob OldLover

Your comment (pouring cement unevenly) or form the news article "however when cement was placed on the second floor of the construction, it was not evenly spread and the weight is thought to have collapsed the structure". Is a bunch a BS!

I sent my summer and vacation from the age of 16 working in construction and at a concrete plants. They are pouring this concrete so wet that the "slump" is so high it flows like water. It can not pile up enough to cause a collapse. So don't try to BS use about the collapse.

Also, today after work stared, at 8:55 AM a large tuck came to VT7 building sight carrying about 30 plus workers. I bet it came from their other construction sight which was close for 30 days?

ThaiBob OldLover you need to get back on subject!

Hello VT7/lookat.

Can anyone now use your name?

Clearly the above post was made by someone other than the person/persons/committee that has made the previous incomprehensible garbled, illiterate postings under your various names.

Keep it up. It makes for much easier reading.

[

It's toast. Any semblance of support it had it's falling through with nary a pause. These charts don't reflect todays action:

Intermediate term expanding triangle:

Again, has it seen point "c" or "e". Again, I think it's the latter. Could be wrong, maybe. Or is it 1992 all over again?

lannarebirth, For the benefit of those of us who are not familiar with FX charts and analysis. What exactly 'is toast"? Do you mean the pound or the baht or what?

Why do charts with names attached ie 'expanding triangle' give any indication of future events. They merely describe in a graphical form what has taken place so far. Which chartists predicted recent volatility in the markets from their charts alone?

Isn't it just a form of fortune telling or voodoo?

Fours ago I built an extensive property in East Pattaya. No sooner was it built than all this nominee stuff emerged. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that if I had known about all this in advance, I would never have built the house.

And nothing ever came of it...to live in Thailand, you need a strong constitution!

Given all that is currently going on in Bangkok I think you could say that Thailand needs a strong constitution too.

Thailand Crisis came up with the item below yesterday. Is it just more white noise or is it real? Whatever the outcome it does seem that rental gives a certain peace of mind and flexibility and buying requires a certain frame of mind to get the benefits of owning your own castle.

Knock ! Knock ! Who is back ? The Foreign Business Act of course !

This famous Thai Saga (between the Benny Hill Show and Monthy Python) continues to excite the politicians. It’s a never ending story. Here is the latest episode.

The Junta started in 2006 an inane amendement process of the law (read my special dossier here) before to back off. Humiliated.

This story of the “40 000 companies to be investigated” is not new.

In september 2007, they’ve made a similar announcement.

It came just after the decision from the government to withdraw the amendement… Face saving exercise I asked at that time.

So one year later they start again, even though it’s a new government. Who is going to believe them ?

We rarely hear the other side though, and when we do it tends to get glossed over and forgotten very quickly. Like the taxi driver that finds a fogotten bag/purse/etc full of money and returns it. Or the baht bus driver that not only helped me load the back of his bus with furniture at Big C, but helped me carry up the 3 flights of stairs to my apartment.

There have probably been a number of good stories over the years, but bad news sells, so that is what gets the headlines.

Hi Kerryd.

Here is another one to add to the list.

Three cheers for the TaxiMeter men.

Omani Tourist praises honest taxi driver as missing waist bag containing thousands of Dollars is returned to him.

On Monday Night, an extremely anxious Omani Tourist made his way to Pattaya Police Station after he had lost his waist bag which contained the equivalent of almost 500,000 Baht in cash. Mr. Hahim Essa aged 50 was accompanied by his friends and he explained to the officer at the Information Desk that he had hired a Pattaya Metered Taxi to take him and his friends from Soi 7 on Pattaya Beach Road to the Beverly Plaza Hotel located on the Pratamnuk Road close to Walking Street. He arrived at the Hotel in the Taxi holding license number 17 and forgot his waist bag on the back seat. The bag contained Mr. Essa and his friends' passports, three air tickets, 14,000 US Dollars and 8,000 Baht in cash. Mr. Essa feared the worse until, moments later, the driver of the taxi, Khun Jakarin aged 52, came to the station to hand in the bag which still contained all the money and other items. Mr. Essa explained to us that he was extremely grateful to the honest taxi driver who was financially awarded for his honesty before all parties left the station.

I use metered taxis all the time when in Bangkok, but never in Pattaya.

No meter, no go.

No meter, no go.

It has a certain ring to it!

Jingthing are you and SmartFarang related? (Smarty your number one supporter and fan).

Are you twins?

Your dogs appear to be.

Are you the same person?

Regarding the meters. They will never be used until the metered fares are fixed at a level that the drivers believe can make them a profit and pay for those brand new and expensive cars. They are just trying to make a living. They don't have a duty to make losses to make a few expat farangs happy.

Of course not. You don't get it.

These cars as anyone can see SIT IDLY MOST of the time. They wait for the big sucker fares. It has become known that they don't deal fair, so only the truly desperate engage them, and of course, tourists. They are LAZY. They could make a big public campaign that they use METER fares similar to Bangkok and then drive around all day moving people. Working alot harder. Making alot more money. I know, I know, not the Thai way, but it happened in Bangkok.

BTW, cities throughout the world regulate the acceptable behavior of their metered taxis. The penalties are money fines and losing their license to drive.

Maybe its you that just doesn't get it?

We live in Pattaya (thank Buddha) to enjoy the relative freedom of a very lightly regulated city where people can do lots of things they want without interference. This is less true of Bangkok which you want to emulate.

Its a sort of cowboy economy but produces lots of willing buyers and lots of willing sellers. Its a breath of fresh air to many who felt stifled and nannied to death in their countries of origin.

The taxi situation is just one aspect of this. If taxis were heavily regulated and controlled as they are in many places then some of the Magic of Pattaya would be lost.

Back in January, you complained of being asked for 150baht for a journey from Bali Hai to Jomtien. Hardly a "big sucker fare". 150 baht!!! 150!!! According to your report you did not try to haggle but slammed the door and walked away to catch a 10 baht bus.

Me: To Jomtien please

Taxi: 150 baht

Me: (pointing to the big Taxi Meter sign on top) You are taxi METER, correct?

Taxi: Yes

Me: You have meter?

Taxi: Yes.

Me: Meter works, correct?

Taxi: Correct.

Me: Why you no use meter?

Taxi: Me wait a long time.

Me: Now you wait longer. You mafia, correct?

Taxi: No mafia.

(SLAM DOOR)

Up to you of course but 150 baht sounds like a bargain to me. Were you alone? If there had been two or three passengers it would have been positively cheap! With inflation taking off again, it will soon seem like the good old days when you could get from Pattaya to Jomtien in an air conditioned taxi for 150 baht.

But getting back to your point of whether or not 'I get it'. You must have heard the Thai response to people who try and get a discount because its low season and there are few customers around? "Can not. Have little customer, must charge more to make same".

This of course goes against our western grain but if you think about it, is a very sensible and pragmatic approach. Many places and businesses here do the same. Less customers means higher prices. Can't sell a house/condo ....then put the price up then and wait.

From the cabbies point of view, Why drive round like a blue arsed fly with a cab full of cheap charlies who probably don't tip well, when a few well chosen and negotiated trips will produce the same income with much less wear and tear on the vehicle and himself.

Most tourists would probably regard 150 baht fare as an absolute steal. To haggle over that fare would only occur to an Indian but I hear them haggle over the 10 baht fare also.

Your dream of turning Pattaya into a well regulated and consequently expensive city will surely come about one day. I imagine we will all be long gone by then; either to somewhere more amenable and cheap or passed on.

DR Penguin is an entertainer/magician who has ably entertained the Pattaya City Expats Club at Henry J Beans several times.

He outlined those events in the Open Forum at the Sunday morning meeting two weeks ago.

Clearly there are two sides to every story, as has been pointed out but this incident took place and has greatly upset Dr Penguin. One of the factors that he stressed at the City Expats meeting was that despite phoning THREE police and helpline numbers he was unable to get any assistance. The 24 hour helpline service did not reply. When asked about this, he checked that he had dialled the correct numbers by looking at his cellphone at that meeting.

Although I have never been threatened or assaulted by a taxi driver I have boarded a baht bus in Soi Beakow which was driven very recklessly. Two Thai women who got on at the junction with Klang got off immediately at the corner of Second Road calling out to me that the driver was 'mow' and 'ting tong'.

I also got off shortly afterwards as he screamed the engine and raced down the outside lane of Second Road. He was clearly under the influence of drink or drugs or both!

Regarding the meters. They will never be used until the metered fares are fixed at a level that the drivers believe can make them a profit and pay for those brand new and expensive cars. They are just trying to make a living. They don't have a duty to make losses to make a few expat farangs happy.

If you know the movie, you know that the reason Terry Malloy never made it was that the fight was fixed -- by the mobster Johnny Friendly. Seems an apt comparison to Jomtien.

Very good

You may very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment.

The game isn't over yet.

The odds of Ocean 1 being built as planned are now probably less than fifty/fifty.

I will be very disappointed if the project fails but I am sure you will be delighted. Good luck to you.

The drawback of gloating too much over another development's problems is that we are all subject to the same underlying forces. The economic and financial tsunami that is washing around the world doesn't just affect projects we either love or hate. It impacts on everyone. Better that we all succeed than fail.

The shakeout that is overdue may stop Ocean 1 but may very well leave Ocean 1/2. After all, twenty five percent of the units have been sold. A fifty floor tower which was often discussed at the start of the project may be the final outcome.

We must all wait and see.

It will be a great opportunity lost if you are correct. To borrow Marlon Brando's words from On The Waterfront "You don't understand. Jomtien could have had class. Jomtien could have been a contender. It could have been somewhere not a bum place".

But as I said. Its not over yet!

Hello Everyone is beautiful Pattaya.

I wondered what the view overall was on the Northpoint Project, Southshore and Raimon Land pedigree?

Do people believe this developer will complete the projects mentioned? If they do and others are not completed due to build cost, poor backing planning/licensing, does this not mak these projects more valuable if they are completed?

All views very welcome...I have or may have financial interests involved hence the questions................

Many people are asking these same questions as they consider what to do next with investment funds and profits from the boom that is now ending. Unfortunately, Pattaya is not immune from the world financial forces and the full impact has yet to be felt here in Pattaya.

No doubt that in the long term the future is bright but the next few years could be even more difficult for the property market in general.

To specifically answer your question about Raimon Land you would need some expert analysis of the following.

1. Why did Raimon need to keep raising capital right through the boom period?

2. What will be the impact of the failed attempt to raise 1.37billion baht capital by a rights issue in March/June?

3. Why is the share price what it now is? 68baht

4. Why has there been no optimistic hype about pre-sales at Southshore Lofts?

5. What does the latest letter to the stock exchange signify for the balance sheet etc? Another loan of 340,116,914 baht from IFA Hotels and Resorts.

It is perfectly possible that there are satisfactory answers and explanations to all those questions and that Raimon Land will thrive and expand as planned.

To add some negative comment.

Flippers in various buildings are trying to bail out before things get worse and just get their money back to break even. This is happening to many off plan sales in projects from Naklua right down the coast.

Southshore is regarded by many as an inferior location where even the units with views will eventually be built out.

Right now the market is going through a periodic and overdue correction. Anyone with the resources to wait long enough will eventually see the good times return.

All of course IMHO. You may believe differently.

I know the project well and I'm sure they have sold something like 80% and even they have obvious cash flow problems. How can the new buildings survive if they only sell 49%? I think even the strongest developers must be worried and purchasers of such projects are mad. Do like La Royale though.

At a recent inspection of the La Royale show units we were told by the salesperson that 80% of the farang quota had been sold. (Most are available from flippers if one of the more desirable units is required).

When asked what percentage of the non farang quota had been sold we were assured 'I do not know".

Later a second salesperson repeated the same answer.

We were left to speculate that the actual figure is very very round!!

You need to go to the beginning of our Blog! http://stopvt7.blogspot.com/ Read our original filing and tell me where we sued for a sea view? That claim was a headline for a Bangkok newspaper.

Sorry to repeat a previous post...BUT.

For once, the journalists reported what they saw.

Why didn't you correct them?

This morning Sat 2nd August there are several vehicles and teams of workers removing and taking away the illuminated signs in Walking Street.

Is this part of the new Mayor's clean up or is it something else?

First the trees along the beach footpath now Walking Street. What next?

All this talk went out the window when the "interim" government was replaced with the current elected PAP party. Any Thai long termer knew it would.

Are you sure about this?

The government gave a two year moratorium till October 2008 for people to get legal.

What is the saying...a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. YES I am sure. The proposed changes and re-interpretation of the laws and regulations regarding the use of nominees in relation to the ownership structure of Thai corporations (whether to own/hold/develop real property or engage in other businesses), which were introduced by the coup-installed interim government, were not passed into law by the time the interim government's time in office expired.

Its not the proposed changes that are a reason for caution but the actual existing law and regulations that were circumvented by (il)legal schemes.

As you say, the fundamental changes proposed in 2006 have not been enacted.

The old existing FBA and Land Act regulations still apply and the new 'joined up' computer technology is capable of scrutinising new applications in a way that previously they were not.

You are sure that nothing will change in October. Some other people are not quite so sure. Maybe you will be proved correct.

Nothing is set in stone here in Thailand but the company ownership route is riskier than other ways of securing the right to occupy a house.

the unceretainty introduced 2 years ago when the Government said they would enforce the laws relating to these 'fake' companies, became the 'tipping' point for many potential house buyers.

All this talk went out the window when the "interim" government was replaced with the current elected PAP party. Any Thai long termer knew it would.

Are you sure about this?

The government gave a two year moratorium till October 2008 for people to get legal.

Could it be that existing Companies which were incorporated to solely own property will be allowed to continue to exist but that from October new company formation and transfer of ownership of existing non-compliant companies will not be allowed.

The originally announced policy may well be carried out by the Land Office and other civil servants regardless of the Political Party in power. The government have more important things to worry about.

That will leave house owners with the 'put it in the Thai name with conditions strategy' or some other scam dreamed up by those with a vested interest.

Things can change overnight here but giving farangs the right to own land is a political non starter. Developers often claim that a change is being considered but no politician who wants Thai votes will ever suggest it.

House renting at present is the securist way to proceed. A drive round the area will give you hundreds of options.

If you like to take a chance then cheap houses have changed hands on the Darkside from farang to Thai for around 50% of the original farang price paid. More expensive houses are probably unaffordable by the average Thai and are probably unsaleable even at a distress price. The internal layout is often too farang for Thai taste and living style.

To GaryA - THANK YOU!! AT LAST!

PLEASE EVERYBODY READ HIS COMMENT. THIS THREAD IS ABOUT INTERESTING STUFF BUT IS BECOMING VERY TEDIOUS TO SCROLL THRU. ALSO, IF YOU TROUBLE TO SELECT AND PASTE THE PART OF A TEXT YOU ARE ADDRESSING IT SAVES THE REST OF US THE BOREDOM OF GOING BACK THRU THE ENTIRE MESSAGE TO REMEMBER WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

Seconded.

Its more than tedious. Its a total waste of time. I doubt whether many people actually read through those long posts.

Empty vessels make most noise. Clear thought doesn't need long convoluted explanations.

Isn't it rather inconsiderate/rude to expect other people to read through masses of irrelevant material rather than spend ones own time editing it to address the point at issue?

Are you saying that Thailand does not heed it's Laws?

We'll see Tammi, we'll see.

I can do no better than quote Homer in the City of New York versus Homer Simpson episode.

Lisa: Can we come back next year dad?

Homer: We'll see honey…

(bag of medical waste hits him in the face)

Homer: …We'll see.

With all reasons, facts and matters of laws submitting in this appeal to the Supreme Court of Administration, 9 Litigants need to request for court's kind consideration to give court's decision or order to revoke the order of lifting injunction or protection procedure to minimize injurious consequences before judgment of the Administrative Court of Rayong province, as requested by 9 Litigants and with the operative result further on.

It seems that some people do not understand what is being considered by the Supreme Court.

As you can read above, they are being requested to 'revoke the order of lifting injunction or protection procedure to minimize injurious consequences before judgment of the Aministrative Court of Rayong province, as requested by 9 litigants and with the operative result further on'.

That is all. If they do as requested by the litigants then building will stop until Rayong make a final decision.

If that happens soon then no doubt there will be appeals should the City lose.

If there are the more usual legal delays......say several months. Then VT7 will be virtually built.

To believe it will then be demolished requires a very limited understanding of how Thailand actually works.

If the Rayong court finally decides against the litigants then it will be up to them to decide whether to try and continue their fight for their sea views.

Meanwhile several tall buildings are being constructed nearer than 200 meters from the control line all along the Pattaya Bay shoreline.

I See the pro vt7 lobby are re-repeating the old construction control line theory again in an attempt to "legalise" vt7,and they accuse the stop vt7 group of repetition charges.

Sadly, for the pro vt7 guys this whole CCL argument is fundemetaly flawed, and was never heard of untill the "expert witness" invented it; clearly the Bangkok Supreme Court have problems with it ,as twice now they have admonished the Rayong court.

Regards your vt7 sea views....dont hold your breath while you are waiting.

Hello Wiresok.

I have no doubt that in your mind you have logically and comprehensively demonstrated a flaw in the pro VT7 case.

Well done. You have won the argument. You may now rest your case. There is no need to repeat it another dozen or so times.

Unfortunately for such a simplistic outcome 'We are not in Bloomsbury now' to quote the ex Prime Minister of Singapore.

Now must be added the fact we are in Thailand.

Do you even in your most fanciful moods, really believe that Pattaya City will be ordered by the Court to order VT7 to demolish the building? Who would pay? The City can't even find the cash for parking garages or park and ride facilities. Look at Threppaya Road on Pratunmak Hill for an indication of its budgetry priories and abilities.

VT7 has been built according to specification with a valid building permit and having passed through all other required planning procedures successfully.

The new Condominium Act specifies 100,000 baht fine for serious infringements of the Act. Maybe that would be the fair (in Thai terms) penalty for the City to pay for its maladministration if indeed they lose their case.

Maybe a token compensation could be paid to those who lose their sea views. Maybe a letter of apology. Maybe absolutely nothing will happen. The owners of an illegal and dangerous building extension in Bangkok refused to cooperate with Bangkok City for more than ten years. It was finally redeveloped after partial collapse and a resulting death.

This sure ain't Kansas Toto!

Thank goodness that with the introduction of the new Condominium Act that this can't happen anymore. The developer must deliver what is shown in advertisements, brochures, on the internet, etc.

IMHO it's a rats' nest.

The new Condominium Act specifies penalties for braking its various provisions. Will a fine of up to 100,000 baht act as an effective deterrent?

Some new projects are costing several billion baht. A fine of 100,000 is less than some of the regular PR stunts that are put on by some developers.

Similarly, the new ESCROW account is being ignored by the people that are most threatened by it. Its not mandatory.

It all appears to be 'window dressing' and not intended to do very much to protect buyers from much more powerful sellers.

The law is the law. But, Thailand culture places the law in a slightly different place than western culture. Even serious criminals are able to evade it if they are powerful enough. Contractual disputes can run on for years and never be resolved satisfactorily. This, after all, is Thailand. Isn't that why we all live here?... to get away from the over regulated, legalistic, nannying of Western lawmakers and enforcers.

You are correct. Its a rats' nest.

When they do the courts and systems of recompense also dont always work with the same impartiality as they do on the west. If your going to discuss the investment you want to point out all the risks people may not think of.

Yes many people make very expensive assumptions about the way things work here. "Assumption is the mother of all foul ups".

The ongoing Stop VT7 versus Pattaya City is a good example. A group of mainly farangs started a legal action that they believe they can win. They all seem to be pissing falang water i.e have not adjusted to the fact they live in another country with another totally different culture where the law is applied very selectively if at all.

Even if they win the immediate legal battle on the technical issues, its a near certainty that they will not achieve their objective of removing the fast growing VT7 building. A Thai solution will be ultimately be found that pleases important Thais and ensures them of no loss of face. The deluded farangs will be left to pay the bills and face the reprisals that will surely follow.

Thai rak Thai.

Buying property here is a high risk investment. Just ask the unhappy owners of houses 'owned' by companies east of Sukhumvit Road in Pattaya. In one small estate/village its estimated that nearly 60% of properties have already passed into Thai lady/partner sole ownership and occupation. How has it happened? Death, diminished funds and a late dawning realisation by the innocent farangs that the 'hansum man' was only as hansum as his willingness to keep opening his wallet.

The return on popular condos buildings such as beachfront or well located can be reasonable by real estate standards, say 6 -10% if they were bought before the current bubble. The current pricing of good located buildings makes getting a decent return very difficult. But spotting potential and beating the market is the fun of property investing isn't it?

The Pattaya market is a bit of an abaration from the normal principles of supply and demand. Special factors seem to keep the cash flowing in. The old maxim of not spending more in Thailand than you can comfortably walk away from, is a good place to start from. Once the bad guys apply and manipulate the new condo laws a lot more investors will see the truth of that idea.

All of this is off the subject of "Condo owners sue for sea view", which is why I tried to start a new Topic. Maybe mine was too specifically JCC. How about one on Thai Condo Law and how it effects us, where we find the real deal, etc.?

Agreed. How about also including House Law?

The two year moratorium on Company Owned houses ends soon (October). What is going to happen to those companies which do not comply with the FBA and Land Act? We could all do with some facts and proper official information about the plans and intentions of the Land Office.

A new thread covering these legal issues and other ongoing areas of concern such as the multi-ownership of condos by foreigners would be useful.