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I know the project well and I'm sure they have sold something like 80% and even they have obvious cash flow problems. How can the new buildings survive if they only sell 49%? I think even the strongest developers must be worried and purchasers of such projects are mad. Do like La Royale though.
At a recent inspection of the La Royale show units we were told by the salesperson that 80% of the farang quota had been sold. (Most are available from flippers if one of the more desirable units is required).
When asked what percentage of the non farang quota had been sold we were assured 'I do not know".
Later a second salesperson repeated the same answer.
We were left to speculate that the actual figure is very very round!!
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You need to go to the beginning of our Blog! http://stopvt7.blogspot.com/ Read our original filing and tell me where we sued for a sea view? That claim was a headline for a Bangkok newspaper.
Sorry to repeat a previous post...BUT.
For once, the journalists reported what they saw.
Why didn't you correct them?
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This morning Sat 2nd August there are several vehicles and teams of workers removing and taking away the illuminated signs in Walking Street.
Is this part of the new Mayor's clean up or is it something else?
First the trees along the beach footpath now Walking Street. What next?
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All this talk went out the window when the "interim" government was replaced with the current elected PAP party. Any Thai long termer knew it would.
Are you sure about this?
The government gave a two year moratorium till October 2008 for people to get legal.
What is the saying...a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. YES I am sure. The proposed changes and re-interpretation of the laws and regulations regarding the use of nominees in relation to the ownership structure of Thai corporations (whether to own/hold/develop real property or engage in other businesses), which were introduced by the coup-installed interim government, were not passed into law by the time the interim government's time in office expired.
Its not the proposed changes that are a reason for caution but the actual existing law and regulations that were circumvented by (il)legal schemes.
As you say, the fundamental changes proposed in 2006 have not been enacted.
The old existing FBA and Land Act regulations still apply and the new 'joined up' computer technology is capable of scrutinising new applications in a way that previously they were not.
You are sure that nothing will change in October. Some other people are not quite so sure. Maybe you will be proved correct.
Nothing is set in stone here in Thailand but the company ownership route is riskier than other ways of securing the right to occupy a house.
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the unceretainty introduced 2 years ago when the Government said they would enforce the laws relating to these 'fake' companies, became the 'tipping' point for many potential house buyers.
All this talk went out the window when the "interim" government was replaced with the current elected PAP party. Any Thai long termer knew it would.
Are you sure about this?
The government gave a two year moratorium till October 2008 for people to get legal.
Could it be that existing Companies which were incorporated to solely own property will be allowed to continue to exist but that from October new company formation and transfer of ownership of existing non-compliant companies will not be allowed.
The originally announced policy may well be carried out by the Land Office and other civil servants regardless of the Political Party in power. The government have more important things to worry about.
That will leave house owners with the 'put it in the Thai name with conditions strategy' or some other scam dreamed up by those with a vested interest.
Things can change overnight here but giving farangs the right to own land is a political non starter. Developers often claim that a change is being considered but no politician who wants Thai votes will ever suggest it.
House renting at present is the securist way to proceed. A drive round the area will give you hundreds of options.
If you like to take a chance then cheap houses have changed hands on the Darkside from farang to Thai for around 50% of the original farang price paid. More expensive houses are probably unaffordable by the average Thai and are probably unsaleable even at a distress price. The internal layout is often too farang for Thai taste and living style.
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To GaryA - THANK YOU!! AT LAST!
PLEASE EVERYBODY READ HIS COMMENT. THIS THREAD IS ABOUT INTERESTING STUFF BUT IS BECOMING VERY TEDIOUS TO SCROLL THRU. ALSO, IF YOU TROUBLE TO SELECT AND PASTE THE PART OF A TEXT YOU ARE ADDRESSING IT SAVES THE REST OF US THE BOREDOM OF GOING BACK THRU THE ENTIRE MESSAGE TO REMEMBER WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
Seconded.
Its more than tedious. Its a total waste of time. I doubt whether many people actually read through those long posts.
Empty vessels make most noise. Clear thought doesn't need long convoluted explanations.
Isn't it rather inconsiderate/rude to expect other people to read through masses of irrelevant material rather than spend ones own time editing it to address the point at issue?
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Are you saying that Thailand does not heed it's Laws?
We'll see Tammi, we'll see.
I can do no better than quote Homer in the City of New York versus Homer Simpson episode.
Lisa: Can we come back next year dad?
Homer: We'll see honey…
(bag of medical waste hits him in the face)
Homer: …We'll see.
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With all reasons, facts and matters of laws submitting in this appeal to the Supreme Court of Administration, 9 Litigants need to request for court's kind consideration to give court's decision or order to revoke the order of lifting injunction or protection procedure to minimize injurious consequences before judgment of the Administrative Court of Rayong province, as requested by 9 Litigants and with the operative result further on.
It seems that some people do not understand what is being considered by the Supreme Court.
As you can read above, they are being requested to 'revoke the order of lifting injunction or protection procedure to minimize injurious consequences before judgment of the Aministrative Court of Rayong province, as requested by 9 litigants and with the operative result further on'.
That is all. If they do as requested by the litigants then building will stop until Rayong make a final decision.
If that happens soon then no doubt there will be appeals should the City lose.
If there are the more usual legal delays......say several months. Then VT7 will be virtually built.
To believe it will then be demolished requires a very limited understanding of how Thailand actually works.
If the Rayong court finally decides against the litigants then it will be up to them to decide whether to try and continue their fight for their sea views.
Meanwhile several tall buildings are being constructed nearer than 200 meters from the control line all along the Pattaya Bay shoreline.
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I See the pro vt7 lobby are re-repeating the old construction control line theory again in an attempt to "legalise" vt7,and they accuse the stop vt7 group of repetition charges.
Sadly, for the pro vt7 guys this whole CCL argument is fundemetaly flawed, and was never heard of untill the "expert witness" invented it; clearly the Bangkok Supreme Court have problems with it ,as twice now they have admonished the Rayong court.
Regards your vt7 sea views....dont hold your breath while you are waiting.
Hello Wiresok.
I have no doubt that in your mind you have logically and comprehensively demonstrated a flaw in the pro VT7 case.
Well done. You have won the argument. You may now rest your case. There is no need to repeat it another dozen or so times.
Unfortunately for such a simplistic outcome 'We are not in Bloomsbury now' to quote the ex Prime Minister of Singapore.
Now must be added the fact we are in Thailand.
Do you even in your most fanciful moods, really believe that Pattaya City will be ordered by the Court to order VT7 to demolish the building? Who would pay? The City can't even find the cash for parking garages or park and ride facilities. Look at Threppaya Road on Pratunmak Hill for an indication of its budgetry priories and abilities.
VT7 has been built according to specification with a valid building permit and having passed through all other required planning procedures successfully.
The new Condominium Act specifies 100,000 baht fine for serious infringements of the Act. Maybe that would be the fair (in Thai terms) penalty for the City to pay for its maladministration if indeed they lose their case.
Maybe a token compensation could be paid to those who lose their sea views. Maybe a letter of apology. Maybe absolutely nothing will happen. The owners of an illegal and dangerous building extension in Bangkok refused to cooperate with Bangkok City for more than ten years. It was finally redeveloped after partial collapse and a resulting death.
This sure ain't Kansas Toto!
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Thank goodness that with the introduction of the new Condominium Act that this can't happen anymore. The developer must deliver what is shown in advertisements, brochures, on the internet, etc.
IMHO it's a rats' nest.
The new Condominium Act specifies penalties for braking its various provisions. Will a fine of up to 100,000 baht act as an effective deterrent?
Some new projects are costing several billion baht. A fine of 100,000 is less than some of the regular PR stunts that are put on by some developers.
Similarly, the new ESCROW account is being ignored by the people that are most threatened by it. Its not mandatory.
It all appears to be 'window dressing' and not intended to do very much to protect buyers from much more powerful sellers.
The law is the law. But, Thailand culture places the law in a slightly different place than western culture. Even serious criminals are able to evade it if they are powerful enough. Contractual disputes can run on for years and never be resolved satisfactorily. This, after all, is Thailand. Isn't that why we all live here?... to get away from the over regulated, legalistic, nannying of Western lawmakers and enforcers.
You are correct. Its a rats' nest.
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When they do the courts and systems of recompense also dont always work with the same impartiality as they do on the west. If your going to discuss the investment you want to point out all the risks people may not think of.
Yes many people make very expensive assumptions about the way things work here. "Assumption is the mother of all foul ups".
The ongoing Stop VT7 versus Pattaya City is a good example. A group of mainly farangs started a legal action that they believe they can win. They all seem to be pissing falang water i.e have not adjusted to the fact they live in another country with another totally different culture where the law is applied very selectively if at all.
Even if they win the immediate legal battle on the technical issues, its a near certainty that they will not achieve their objective of removing the fast growing VT7 building. A Thai solution will be ultimately be found that pleases important Thais and ensures them of no loss of face. The deluded farangs will be left to pay the bills and face the reprisals that will surely follow.
Thai rak Thai.
Buying property here is a high risk investment. Just ask the unhappy owners of houses 'owned' by companies east of Sukhumvit Road in Pattaya. In one small estate/village its estimated that nearly 60% of properties have already passed into Thai lady/partner sole ownership and occupation. How has it happened? Death, diminished funds and a late dawning realisation by the innocent farangs that the 'hansum man' was only as hansum as his willingness to keep opening his wallet.
The return on popular condos buildings such as beachfront or well located can be reasonable by real estate standards, say 6 -10% if they were bought before the current bubble. The current pricing of good located buildings makes getting a decent return very difficult. But spotting potential and beating the market is the fun of property investing isn't it?
The Pattaya market is a bit of an abaration from the normal principles of supply and demand. Special factors seem to keep the cash flowing in. The old maxim of not spending more in Thailand than you can comfortably walk away from, is a good place to start from. Once the bad guys apply and manipulate the new condo laws a lot more investors will see the truth of that idea.
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All of this is off the subject of "Condo owners sue for sea view", which is why I tried to start a new Topic. Maybe mine was too specifically JCC. How about one on Thai Condo Law and how it effects us, where we find the real deal, etc.?
Agreed. How about also including House Law?
The two year moratorium on Company Owned houses ends soon (October). What is going to happen to those companies which do not comply with the FBA and Land Act? We could all do with some facts and proper official information about the plans and intentions of the Land Office.
A new thread covering these legal issues and other ongoing areas of concern such as the multi-ownership of condos by foreigners would be useful.
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1/. I don't believe in enriching landlords and I'm not scared of the dark.
2/. But of all the people I know here that rent, I haven't met one yet (honestly) who is renting because of concern over the ownership laws, they all rent because they can't afford to buy.
3/. Only one of the above is certain, that a landlord will take your money and it will never be yours again.
Burgernev
About 1. The average return on property, as far as you can tell in this land of half-truths, outright lies and dodgy statistics , is probably less than the return on bank deposited money in safe offshore accounts.
Averages are just that and include some properties that have exceeded the average and done very well but many others that have failed to achieve a reasonable rate of return.
As you mention 'afford to buy' I assume you are talking about small scale landlords and investors and not mega corporations with large financial resources.
Landlords often claim that they have made good returns but this is not really true unless they have actually sold the property and received the capital appreciation they claim.
The East side of Pattaya is littered with unfinished projects, completed but unsaleable houses and also village estates with a large proportion of houses for re-sale. Most of them are unsaleable at the asking prices. The owners do not want to sell at the market price as this will actually capitalise their losses. As long as the house remains unsold they can claim they have lost nothing and have made a capital gain.
About 2. Pattaya and district must have hundreds, if not thousands of farangs who could buy property at the blink of an eye if they wanted to. They do not for many reasons including the sheer convenience of being able to move from one rental to another with minimum hassle and inconvenience if they want to. A year at the beach, followed by a year at a golf course followed by city centre location etc.
Do you really think that the kind of people who happily pay 60, 70 or even 100,000 baht and more monthly rent can't afford to buy?
They do not "all rent bacause they can't afford to buy".
About 3. You can say the same about developers who have developed wonderfully effective marketing strategies to part the innocent from their money. They may eventually get some or even all of it back again but if they rented and kept their capital intact then they could access it at will.
The article by William Jarvis includes the advice '3. enough cash not to worry about the money you just invested in the Thai property. It is the last of these you should keep in the forefront of your mind: never invest in Thai property more than you are willing to walk away from'.
That is another reason some people do not buy. Its also the reason why some people do buy. The loss of a few million baht will not give them any sleepless nights should it ever happen and in the meantime they have the Thai version of 'property ownership'.
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I bought one from Indochine, something I will regret for the rest of my life
Why is that?
Do you mean that you wished you had bought a house? Surely not?
Or do you mean that you will regret buying (rather than renting) a condo?
That is a common enough scenario. Condos can be very easy to buy but very hard to sell again.
Or do you mean that something happened between you and Indochine that you regret?
Why don't you sell it cheap? Take your loss as a lesson learned and move on. Regretting something for the rest of your life seems like a huge waste of emotional energy.
Rent somewhere pleasant that suits your particular needs and enjoy life. If it fails to please, rent somewhere else.
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Until now, I had no idea you were a Justice on the Supreme Administrative Court
Ho ho Very good.
I am glad that you have a sense of humour. One of us is going to need it before this saga is over.
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Property Plus was ordered by the court to remove floors from eleven buildings that breached height limits. The deconstruction is taking place.
Yes agreed. But Proprty Plus did not have a building permit for high rise buildings. They changed the design after receiving their low rise permit.
He said the excess height was the result of new designs,...........
the building heights exceed the 23-metre maximum for low-rises under the Building Control Act. Buildings higher than 23 metres need high-rise building construction permits. But Plus could not change the permits easily since high-rise permits require a different setback distance, the space from a building to the boundary of a plot, which varies depending on its height, of at least six metres.
VT7 have not changed the design and they have permisiion to build a high rise which is progressing rapidly.
The VT7 building is 100% legal.
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Dear prospero
Your question "the history of Thai courts in removing illegal portions of builds?" When I asked our Bangkok attorneys a seemlier question they sight three samples. Since their been one example talked about in the news paper. I had a meeting with one of are Bangkok Thai advisors who was involved in removing a illegal building in Bangkok.
So which buildings are you referring to?
Surely not the New World Department store? (after partial collapse of illegal extension).
It doesn't offer much encouragement for those hoping VT7 will be removed. see below
BMA compromises on New World demolition order - The Nation, October 22, 2003
[Even after the decades of stalling and the death of a tenant, the city still could not make the New World Department store comply with demolition orders.]
The demolition of the New World building, which partially collapsed in June, has been delayed due to a dispute between the Bangkok Metropolitan Administration and Kaewfa Shopping Arcade Co Ltd over who should do the work, a Civil Court source said yesterday.
But, the BMA in court compromised by asking the company to demolish the building in Bang Lumphu themselves with the agency in a supervisory role to ensure safety, the source said...
It would be a great help to us all if you could give the exact details of when, where and why they were deemed illegal and exactly what was removed.
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What do you suggest should be done with surplus cash at the present inflationary time?
buy buy buy.
Ok. Egg6447. But what what what?
Property is too illiquid and most people living here probably have enough already both in Farangland and here in our guest location.
Stocks and shares need too much micro management and RBOS may be correct about the downward trajectory.
The ideal situation for a typical Thailand retiree is security and ease of access to take instant advantage of any 'too good to miss situations' that may crop up.
There will be lots if there really is a calamitous financial shakeout around the world as some are predicting.
So, what what what would you buy buy buy?
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If the court does so rule, it may come as a surprise in places like Phuket, where you never see tall buildings closer that 200 meters from the shore. Hua Hin the same.
Really?
So the Hilton Hotel at Hua Hin is 200 meters from the shore is it?
A quick look at Google Earth will show you that there are many high rise building closer than 200 meters to the beach around Hua Hin.
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I agree William Osbourne, anyone with half a brain and an internet connection would be better of doing their own research and investing. No-ones ever gonna care about your money as much as you do! regardless of what those commission based financial advisors say!
Hill Billy you wrote "A question to all you financial experts out there--in view of this topic, and with regard to the advice that has been given for some time , is it now time to reduce all UK savings accounts to a sum no greater than 35K sterling--or, as some advisors say, is this paranoid overkill? Any views?"
If anyone has 35k in a UK savings account you must have far less than the half a brain requisite required for personal wealth managament :-)
UK Offshore Bank Sterling Savings accounts offer around 6.3% instant access and are as risky as the institution that offers that rate. (Nationwide International).
Why would Hill Billy only have far less than half a brain if he is using such accounts?
What do you suggest should be done with surplus cash at the present inflationary time?
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<br /><br /><br /><br />It doesn't look very promising for Lehman Brothers after having read this item <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7444185.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7444185.stm</a><br />Raimon Land is also having a tough go.
http://www.bangkokpost.net/Business/11Jun2008_biz49.php
But hold on. Beginner is warming up to sing another chorus of "The Sun Will Come Out Tomorrow"!
Yes, interesting times indeed.
As the sage said, if you haven't got problems, you're not in business. I have no inside knowledge whatsoever of Raimon Land but one has to wonder about a company that needs to refinance in the middle of a selling/ building frenzy as they did last year.
I wish them well.
OK I'll sing
The sun'll come out
Tomorrow
Bet your bottom dollar
That tomorrow
There'll be sun!
Just thinkin' about
Tomorrow
Clears away the cobwebs,
And the sorrow
'Til there's none!
When I'm stuck a day
That's gray,
And lonely,
I just stick out my chin
And Grin,
And Say,
Oh
The sun'll come out
Tomorrow
If you will sing another Annie song. Its A Hard Knock Life
It's the hard-knock life for us
It's the hard-knock life for us
No one cares for you a smidge
When your in an orphanage
It's the hard-knock life
It's the hard-knock life
It's the hard-knock life!
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According to today's Nation, there seems to be quite a bit of creative destruction going on in Bangkok. The failure rate for condos is nearing 50%.
Maybe the developer of Ocean 1 can chop off 45 stories or so.
What do you think, Beginner?
I'm afraid that I had never heard of Aquarius and knew nothing of their expertise or track record.
But if I were in the Project Management Business as is Aquarius Estate Co I would be very satisfied with the publicity generated by the article you refer to. Maybe it will generate a little more work for their three year old business and help it over its initial growing pains.
Here is some of its 'wisdom'.
After conducting a study during the past five months, the building consultant said even inner Sukhumvit, an area once deemed immune to downturns, "no longer guarantees success". "The average take-up rate for Bangkok condominiums is now 54 per cent," he said. "That is considerably lower than about 70 per cent for last year." "Of the 50,000 units that are expected to be launched this year, about 46 per cent won't be sold," he deduced from recent statistics. "One out of every two developments could fail."
So you ask. What do I think?
My answer. Not a lot...about such a journalistic piece of extrapolation and un-referenced, in house statistics.
Fortunately Ocean 1 is not being built in Bangkok but in a fine general location, soon to be dramatically improved and developed, near the sea. It will be a lasting joy to all those lucky enough to be able to buy a unit, (and lucky enough to be in a position to risk losing their capital without any great financial trauma should it fail).
As I have said before. No large scale project is completed without problems and difficulties. Ocean 1 will be no different.
My view/experience of risk taking is that for every two or three failures, the one winner takes care of all the other losses.
If someone is totally risk averse then the best course of action for them is to do nothing.
Why would anyone expect 'a guaranteed success' in any risky free market business environment? In Thailand of all places!!
The only certain way to succeed is to do nothing. As Homer Simpson once said, Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.
Are you related to Homer Prospero?
Just kidding. -
More information on the 'new model'. How reliable is this source? I am not sure.
It seems that it is just a revamped Air Blade.
The difference is the paint job which will be called Phoenix Edition to retain its designation as King of Cool. Everything else remains the same.
Raimon Land, Northpoint, Southshore And Pattaya
in Pattaya
Posted
Many people are asking these same questions as they consider what to do next with investment funds and profits from the boom that is now ending. Unfortunately, Pattaya is not immune from the world financial forces and the full impact has yet to be felt here in Pattaya.
No doubt that in the long term the future is bright but the next few years could be even more difficult for the property market in general.
To specifically answer your question about Raimon Land you would need some expert analysis of the following.
1. Why did Raimon need to keep raising capital right through the boom period?
2. What will be the impact of the failed attempt to raise 1.37billion baht capital by a rights issue in March/June?
3. Why is the share price what it now is? 68baht
4. Why has there been no optimistic hype about pre-sales at Southshore Lofts?
5. What does the latest letter to the stock exchange signify for the balance sheet etc? Another loan of 340,116,914 baht from IFA Hotels and Resorts.
It is perfectly possible that there are satisfactory answers and explanations to all those questions and that Raimon Land will thrive and expand as planned.
To add some negative comment.
Flippers in various buildings are trying to bail out before things get worse and just get their money back to break even. This is happening to many off plan sales in projects from Naklua right down the coast.
Southshore is regarded by many as an inferior location where even the units with views will eventually be built out.
Right now the market is going through a periodic and overdue correction. Anyone with the resources to wait long enough will eventually see the good times return.
All of course IMHO. You may believe differently.