oldcpu

32 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Correct. 

 

So, you are basically saying it;'s either exempt in Thailand, or Thailand can tax it IF Thailand's rate is higher. 

 

The DTA "myth" is, if it's taxed in my home country, then Thailand doesn't get to tax it at all.  That's incorrect. 

Indeed. 

And further to your point some DTAs even say that (if pension not a civil servant/military pension) then the pension can only be taxed in the country of residence ... For example German pensions for those who are not civil servants/military pensioners are not to have their pensions taxed in Germany (if one is a resident of Thailand), but can only be taxed in Thailand .

... and then there is the Canada-Thai DTA that pretty much states any Canadian sourced pensions (or similar remunerations) can ONLY be taxed in Canada (and not taxed in Thailand ,even if one a resident of Thailand).

The two DTAs could not be much more different in that aspect.

IMHO it simply underscores  the importance to check the DTA with Thailand of the source country of one's pension (where many on this and other threads on AseanNow have noted the importance to check such).

4 minutes ago, DrPhibes said:

Would not be a bad idea that new threads start for each country to keep down the confusion over each country's DTAs, which are not the same.

I suspect there are only a handful of such threads needed dedicated to specific countries and the remainder could be lumped into one thread. 

Case in point, there is an old thread for DTAs for Canada , and that thread is dead as a door nail :

1 hour ago, stat said:

Thanks for your post! Could you kindly elaborate some details of your investment in Th government bonds? Is a foreign bank acceptable as correspondent bank? What is the yield of the bonds, is it ok to buy 1 year bond? Thanks!

I purchased the Thai Government bonds to top up the money needed meet the BoI requirement of $250K US$ investment in Thailand as part of the requirement for a Wealthy Pensioner who is only claiming the > $40K US$ equiv/year income.

No. One year bond is NOT adequate.  5-year is not adequate.  It needs to be a 7 year or 10-year.

I purchased the new bonds at a local Bangkok Bank Branch.   Frankly, I did not care about the interest rate.  If you are looking for an investment in Thailand with a good interest rate, then FORGET THIS APROACH (I put in caps deliberately).  I did not care about the interest rate.

I bought 2-million THB in Thai government bonds.  Interest was  3%.  7-year maturity.  Tax is automatically with drawn before interest paid.  I was asked for a Thai TIN (which I did not have) when applying for the bond.  I gave the bank my pink-ID #, their computer accepted that, and I obtained the bond.

Frankly, the 3% interest worries me as being too high - as it could mean I will have to file a Thai tax return. My hope (??) is the automatic withholding tax will mean I don't have to file an income tax return.

The Bank of Thailand (from whom Bangkok Bank gets the bond) would only give me a bond book, and not a bond certificate. BoI would not initially accept copy of the bond book. In the end, Bangkok bank printed on the last page of the bond book the bond interest rate, maturity/redemption date, and that satisfied BoI.

But to re-iterate, I did not buy the bonds for investment. This was just money to top up the BoI $250K US$ requirement.  The remainder of the $250K US (not covered by the 2-million THB in bonds) was my 50% ownership of my condominium unit (my wife owns the other 50%).  And the 3% interest could bite me in the butt and force me to file a Thai tax return.

6 minutes ago, Badrabbit said:

Went to my tax office again, explained to them I get pensions from the UK, pay tax in the UK.

Thay yet again said "due to the double taxation agreement you won't pay tax here"

If Immigration should mention it I just show them proof of my tax payments.

 

Thankyou for sharing your experience. 

I assume that your pension is a civil servant or military pension.

I suspect there are some on the forum who won't believe you.

I appreciate your sharing in spite of the disbelievers.

6 minutes ago, JimGant said:

.... example letter re:Tricare

 

Thankyou for that.  That should hopefully be helpful for those who have US Tricare.

My hope is that those who have private health insurance from outside of Thailand (such as European Cigna or other) post an example of their letter (deleting personal aspects) so that those of us, with such non-Thai branch health insurance, can send such to our health insurance companies so that such can be used as a pro-forma that has been shown to meet BoI requirements.

Just now, PJ71 said:

So you're one of these digital gonads? aka trader?

 

$100K canadian rupees is only about 300 baht - lol.

Lol.

I wish Revenue Canada saw it that way. Then my Canadian taxes would be much less.  😅

15 minutes ago, PJ71 said:

Does this not raise the question, "why bother"?

 

Is this just to show you're drinking buddies that 'you're the man'?

 

Pink ID card / Yellow book, complete waste of time as mentioned many times.

I think it depends on the individual.

Given the local RD office refused me a Thai Tax ID, which I needed for some foreign trading accounts,  by using my Thai pink ID #, in place of a Thai tax ID #, I was able to ( in a very timely time critical moment) unfreeze and transfer the trading accounts, and earn over $100k Cdn$. With out the pink ID I would have missed the stock buying opportunity that made me a lot of money. 

So a waste of time? I guess it all relative.  I am not so wealthy that I consider $100k Cdn$ a waste. Good for you that you have so much money that you can thumb your nose at $100k Cdn$. I can only wish to have that much money to consider such a waste.

Again,  it depends on the individual and their situation. 

5 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

If that is what you believe, crack on and do what you think is best for you.

 

Honestly, I couldn't care less what you do.

Ok.

I do hope your approach works for you.  I think thou, your situation is the DTA of your source country allows Thailand AND the source country to both tax some of your foreign sourced income.

I believe (if correct) that has influenced your view.

That is VERY different from countries whose DTA only allows only the source country to tax a specific income (and not Thailand).

I do caution you not to include a tax exempt income if there is no place to deduct that income in the tax form.  You could end up paying tax on that tax exempt income.  I wish you all the best in sorting any problems that may cause you.

14 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Furthermore, it is not for me to explain. It would be for the RD to explain, but perhaps holding your horses until the updated English Forms come out, or take a trip with all your paperwork to your local RD Office and get them to assist you face to face, might be better than trying to demand answers from another foreigner, who is in the exact same boat as you are.

Royal Decree-18 came out in 2009 (?) noting DTAs could make some income exempt.  Yet from 2019 to 2023 there was no field in any Thai Tax form, neither English nor Thai language, to include in the exemption list foreign tax exempt income (per DTA) remitted in the year it was earned.

This was  LONG before 2024.

Further, DTA exemptions can affect MORE than just foreigners. They can also in some cases be relevant to Thai people in Thailand.

Further, if you examine the English and Thai language tax forms side by side, year by year , they are pretty much very close to the same.

The year 2024 (and year 2025) Thai language tax forms have no such entry.

So you can hold your breath waiting for the English language 2024 Thai tax forms, but if I had to wager, ... I believe just like the Thai language forms, there will be no inclusion in the income exempt area, for income exempt by DTAs.  There was no entry in 2017, nor 2018, nor 2019, nor 2020, nor 2021, nor 2022, nor 2023 (nor the Thai 2024) so I do not believe there will be in 2024 English language form.

Plus, I can not help but suspect that when the 2024 tax form in English language comes out, and if like the previous 2017 to 2023 the exemption list has nothing for DTA, that you will not change your view.

2 hours ago, Yumthai said:

Most of civilized countries (the West mainly) give equally the same rights to its permanent residents regardless of citizenship.

 

But what's your point? Because some countries discriminate its residents then it's OK?

Not USA.Not Canada. Not Germany.

I guess you don't consider those countries civilized?  Or maybe you simply have not researched this.  Citizens DO have more privileges than resident aliens. 

27 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Being under the umbrella of a DTA does not exempt anyone from complying with Thailands Tax rules and laws.

 

It doesn't matter what I believe. It matters what the RD Guy in the video believes and what has been pushed out to Revenue Department Offices.

 

And that does not exclude the same thing that happens at different immigration Offices, where thay might actually do different things at the local level.

 

 

 

No one is saying don't comply with Thai laws.

So I have no idea where you are going there.  Rather I am saying to comply with Thai law, the exempt income that i noted (DTA exempt and LTR exempt) are not to be included in a tax form.  That does NOT go against Thai laws, and the Royal Decrees and also Thailand tax forms omissions (of such as exempt income for deductions) confirms that such income is exempt for purposes of tax calculation (and not to be included on a tax form).

18 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Watch the video from 7.30 to 8.30

 

 

2 criteria that the Revenue Department use for assessable income for tax

 

 No difference between Thais and Foreigners. The same rules apply

 

1.  Income brought in from overseas from after Jan 2024  is assessable income for tax.

 

2. Especially for foreigners, if you stay 180 days or more you are a taxpayer.

 

You can then listen to the expat going on about everyone staying within the rules.

 

You can read that anyway you like, and so can anyone else. 

 

I read that as, here 180 days or more, remit income gained after Jan 01 2024, you are classed as taxpayer and you need to file a tax return.

 

Your specific DTA will determine, what, if any tax, you might have to pay.

 

Being under the umbrella of a DTA does not exempt anyone from complying with Thailands Tax rules and laws.

 

It doesn't matter what I believe. It matters what the RD Guy in the video believes and what has been pushed out to Revenue Department Offices.

 

And that does not exclude the same thing that happens at different immigration Offices, where thay might actually do different things at the local level.

 

 

We agree with all that.  I think you miss my point.

Where we disagree is what 'exempt' means in the context of cases where a DTA may state only the other country (not Thailand) can tax a certain income ... which Royal Decree 18 confirms means such is exempt Thai tax. 

I interpret that as meaning 'exempt for calculation of tax' (and hence similar to por.161/162 it does not go on a tax form).

Further I support my interpretation based on deliberate omissions in official Thailand tax forms going back to year 2017 (and possibly to 2009) .

As far as I can read, you have yet to explain why you believe there is no entry in any Thailand tax form to list in exemptions any exempt income in DTAs (per Royal Decree-18) .

29 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

I am not saying that Pension is taxable in Thailand. I never have done, and never will do.

 

Filing and taxing are 2 different things.

 

OK ...  Then we still differ.

My intepretation - which is I believe the  same as the Thai RD, is that 'exempt income" cases noted (DTA exempt per Royal Decree wording and LTR exempt also per Royal Decree wording) is the same as 'exempt for taxation calculations".

We have already had confirmed that remitted income exempt from tax, per por.161/162 is not to be included in a Thai tax form. So same wording ... 'exempt' ...  Same treatment in the Thai tax return forms (both English and Thai language) where there is NO mention in the tax return forms of such as being an exemption . None. Not one word.  Where that strongly suggests that exempt income is "exempt for tax calculation purposes and it is not to be included in a tax form... Yet you still believe it should be filed.

Ok - fine - that is your view.

But I do not understand why you ignore what is very clear in the Thai tax forms going back to year 2017 (the furthest I looked back) and probably going back to the year Ministerial Decree 18 was issued (2009 ?? < unsure > ).  If such was to be included for tax filing as an exemption  (where it is exempt) there would be a place on the Thai tax form for such. 

There is no place.

What do you believe is the reason for that omission in ALL of the Thai tax forms?

International Driver's Licence denied by provincial Department of Transport as they considered LTR visa a tourist visa.

I kid you not.

My International Driver's licence, which I previously obtained from the provincial Department of Transport (based on my 5-year Thailand driver's licence) expires in February.  In March I fly to Australia, and the rental car company in Perth advised me I must have an International Driver's licence.

I went to the Phuket Department of Transport today and I was denied an International Driver's licence (to replace my existing one) because I am on an LTR visa, which this Department of Transport claims they were instructed by the main Department of Transport to treat like a tourist visa.  And since they treat like a tourist Visa they:

(1) will not issue an International Driver's Licence based on my Thai driver's licence, and

(2) when my current Thai driver's licence expires in 2027 , they will NOT allow me to renew it for 5-years.  Instead they will require me to switch to a 2 year temporary driver's licence.

However, they advised if I was still on a Type-O or Type-OA visa, they would allow me to get an International Driver's Licence and they would (in 2027) allow me to renew my Thailand driver's licence for 5 years.

Why?

Because they have been instructed to treat the LTR visa as a Tourist Visa.

After a LONG chat with whom we believe to be the head of this provincial Department of Transport office, we agreed:

(a) they would double check with the main Department of Transport office, and if advised otherwise, they would contact my wife (and if in that case, I could return and apply again for an International Driver's license).

(b) I would contact BOI and advise them of this Department of Transport office policy toward LTR visa holders having less driver's license privileges than Type-O/OA visa holders.

I went to the BoI web page's contact page ... and it refuses to accept email addresses. So one can not contact via that page. The BoI webpage has a bug!  ... lol.

So I used one of my previous BoI email addresses (which is NOT the correct BoI email , but its the best I could do) and I requested they conctact the Thailand Department of Transport so to give LTR visa holders at least equal privileges for Thailand driving licences as Type-O/OA non-immigrant Visa holders.

If I hear no reply in a few days, I will phone BoI.

= = =

EDIT - This has been sorted.  Please see post below

9 minutes ago, GarryP said:

That will also apply to me, hopefully. Just filed my last tax return last Thursday and received my rebate today, so happy with that. However, now I am retired and will have no earnings in 2025, I assume I will not have to file a tax return for the 2025 tax year. FYI I have not been filing as an expratiate.   

You filed your last tax return last Thurday, and you have not been filing as an expatriate.  ... Are you filing as a permanent resident, or as a non-resident, or as a Thai citizen? 

24 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

A DTA does not say that a particular pension escapes Thai Tax Law, rules and regulations. It says that it is only taxable in Country X, Y or Z.

 

I am trying (unsuccessfully) to understand your view here.

If a DTA, to which Thailand signs, states a particular pension is ONLY taxable in the source country (which is not Thailand), that you still believe that pension is STILL taxable in Thailand (despite wording in the DTA and wording in Ministerial Decree 18 which covers DTAs) ?

If so, you and I have very different opinions. 

I believe my view matches that of the Thai revenue department, in part because given a Royal Decree notes the income is exempt (as per DTA wording)  and given that there has since 2017 never been a place on a Thai tax form (neither English nor Thai language) to list exemptions for DTA income/pensions (for cases where DTA states only a non-Thailand country can tax said income/pension).

11 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Why ask?  I was already there in the office to get access to the online filing system.  (TIN canceled, pinkie activated).  Change in rule interpretation had recently gone into effect.  Seemed like a good time to ask whether I would be affected in any way.

 

I was in the office, my wife translator was with me, I had the undivided attention of the office manager, and I was planning to file three late online tax returns.

 

The big chief in a small pond confirmed the only change was that only assessable (that word appears in the tax instructions) remittances need be declared, only assessable remittances enter into the PIT calculations, and that if the total of my assessable remittances fall below the 120K (filing joint) threshhold, I am not required to file a tax return.

 

I could not submit the 2023 return then, as I had not yet obtained a bank withholding statement.  I was surprised when I was able to file three late returns without providing the bank statements, and that they were approved, and that I received the 2023 refund immediately.  A month later, I was notified that 2021 and 2022 bank statements were needed. 

 

And really, the point of the exercise was to get set up on the online system, and to get a 3-year history of completed and approved tax returns if sometime in the future the TRD folks called to request an interview. 

 

Now I know how to file Thai language forms.  I know which remittances are assessable.  I know that if remittances are not assessable, they are invisible to the Thai tax system.  I know what documentation I need to file onlline.  I know how to submit requested documentation online when requested.

 

I learned that a late filing fee of 200 baht is required (apparently) only once per year, required for the 2023 return, but not the other two.  I learned how to use the Thai system to access my Bangkok Bank account and transfer the fee online during the return filing process.  I learned how to download approved tax returns digitally stamped by the TRD, as well as TRD receipts showing no tax due.

 

I logged into the system on the 4th and in about 20 minutes filed my 2024 return with no documentation.  I erroneously thought the online system had access to current year withholding.  It is possible that it does, but was too early in the tax season.  My filing was accepted, and a request was made for the bank statement and marriage certificate. 

 

I'm all set up and have no concerns unless global taxation goes into effect.  But for that, I have a cunning plan!

Thanks. One takeaway I have from the above is you also have a small amount of assessable local Thai income ( interest) which factors into the tax return filing consideration. 

26 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

As a taxpayer one expects to be treated equally. Not the case in Thailand where foreigners (except to some degree permanent residents) do not have the same rights/benefits as citizens. Differences are not an issue should they also be fairly reflected over the tax rules.

Most countries do not treat tax payers equal.  Many countries tax non-citzens who are resident and do not give those non-residents all the privileges of citizens. 

If you don't believe me you need to research this some more.

1 hour ago, PomPolo said:

Do you work for the revenue department or a tax advisor looking for business? 😁
I can buy a house and own it where at?  I could buy a house but I would have to build it floating in the air as I couldn't own the land it was built on.

A counter-point may be that Thailand, if it were to adopt policy of other countries, allowing foreigners to buy land, would drive the price so high that local Thai people could not afford.  So this restriction was put in place.  Take a look at prices in London UK, and then research the views as to what was a big contributing factor in driving up the prices such that locals can hardly (or not at all) afford such.

There is a European country (Spain ? Portugal ? ) where recently the press suggests has now something like a 100% tax on property price (?) for any foreigner wishing to buy. 

So all is not equal globally for expatriates in comparison to citizens of a country.

This is one of the global downsides of being an expatriate.  One can not expect equality with the citizenry in all aspects.  Like it or not as a non-citizen, when comparing oneself to the locals, citizenship does bring privileges.

2 hours ago, koolkarl said:

You  still don't get it.  You get nothing extra for paying income taxes or a wealth tax that is looming, no health care, no residence status, just polluted air.

Not every one is taxed.  DTAs with many countries prevent double taxation. The tax that many pay is less than that of their income source country.

Medical/hospitals are good quality and a fraction of the cost of other countries. In other countries medical costs bankrupt some.

And a wealth tax is looming?  Yes, and the sky falling is looming also.  Trucks that might run us over on the highway are looming also.

2 hours ago, koolkarl said:

You still have essentially a 1 year tourist visa which is called retirement visa, 90 day report, renew visa yearly, etc.

My visa is good for ten years. No 90 day reports (instead one year reports).  No yearly visa renewals.

2 hours ago, koolkarl said:

There is zero added value for paying any taxes.

So you wish to drive a vehicle on dirt roads?  Do you wish no electricity infrastructure?  Guess what  ... taxes help pay for that (its not all pay as you use). Shall we have only the Thai citizens pay for that infrastructure while expats just thumb their nose at those who pay for such?

The world is a big place.  As harsh as this sounds, if this is not the place for you, then travel find a better place.  Many of us dream of traveling, so go for the traveling dream.