oldcpu

4 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

The time to worry is when you need a visa extension, and not before enforcement is implemented. Then they would need to include visas issued by consulates.

In the past - this certificate was only enforced for those entering or leaving Thailand.  It was not enforced for extensions.

After a while, the need for the certificate was dropped and ignored by immigration.

Sure, this could happen - and this would be a way to try and enforce taxation , ... but will it happen?  Who knows.  For certain I don't know (where I am skeptical that it will happen).

4 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

The sky ain't falling .......... Yet!

 Agree.

8 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Mr Hart's latest video

 

 

 

Are the IRS Agents that he mentions, here at the invitation of the Thai Government ?
 

I have no doubts that there is agents of the OECD here in Thailand, advising and directing at the top levels.

 

But honestly folks, its all fake news, scaremongering, and people posting on forums, apparently pushing agendas, and nothing will be changing in Thailand.

A Benjamin Hart opinion video on American taxation.   Hah !!

Aside from the American's - who  cares? Further, note one of the very first word from him is that this is an opinion video.

My view - is if not an American, don't waste one second of your time watching such - and second for the Americans, note the video source - and then search this forum to understand the view of many on this forum in regards to posts from that source.

35 minutes ago, djeetyet said:

I will be applying for a Non-Immigrant Retirement Visa in early April, 2025. My landlord made the TM 30 online, but she says there's no option to print/download from her smartphone. Don't I need to have a copy of the TM30 when applying at my local Imm office? If already answered please post link to thread - I searched and couldn't find one. TIA.

Ask her to make a screen print of the TM30 entry with your name on it.  That (a screenprint) was accepted at the Phuket Immigration office a few years back.

10 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Sure. My point is Financial Institutions may incur legal penalties for non-compliance with the CRS regulations, individuals not.

Individuals won't face legal penalties either, other than possibly account restrictions/closure, for not willing to file the CRS form presented by their banks. Therefore, individuals are not required to directly/strictly comply with CRS.

Well ... individuals face no fines from CRS.  That doesn't mean that national governments could then not fine individuals.

I believe CRS requirements will be flowed down to the national level , and fines structured accordingly.

Having typed that, don't believe the scaremongering hype of some about what CRS demands. Such hype is unfounded opinion, and when asked for official OECD references they don't post any.  Why? Because there is none - and its easier for them to post unfounded scare mongering.

16 minutes ago, watchcat said:

Does pension  count as overseas income?

 If the pension comes from overseas, then I would say yes. 

In the case of Thailand, my understanding is 'pensions' are treated as 'income'. 

Although having typed that, note that Thai Tax code article 42 lists exempt income that is not to be included in tax calculations,  where income exempt due to ministerial regulations are not to be included in Thai tax calculations.  One the needs to accurately assess if their overseas income (in particular pensions) are exempt due to Thai ministerial regulations. In some  cases they are exempt, in other cases they are not exempt.

For example, Canada's DTA (Double Tax Agreement) with Thailand states  Canada has exclusive taxation rights on Canadian pensions (for Canadian pension receipt by those who are tax residents of Thailand).  In contrast, German's DTA with Thailand states Thailand has exclusive taxation rights on German pensions (for German pension receipt by those who are residents of Thailand).

There are of course other relevant ministerial regulations.

3 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Please elaborate.

CRS rules apply to FIs. FIs (may) try to make their customers comply with what CRS require them.

Individuals are free to comply or not (with/without consequences) with their FIs policy/requirements.  

For example, both the Thailand and Canada faq on CRS implementation aspects for their countries, while noting in general that Financial Institutions accounts for individuals need to be reported to OECD per CRS, also note that government regulated accounts are not reported to CRS. 

For example such government regulated accounts in Canada include (but are not restricted to) Registered Retirement Savings Plans (RRSPs) and Registered Retirement Income Funds (RRIFs). Money in RRSPs and RRIFs are allowed to grow tax free by Canadian law.  However when one is taking money out of the RRIFs and RRSPs, one must then pay tax to Canada on such withdrawals, and one must file a Canadian Income tax return.

The Thailand FAQ re: CRS also notes Thailand government regulated funds for individuals are not reported to CRS.

3 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Bingo.

 

and another thought before I head off to the Hospital.

 

Did the New interpretation of the rules, the issuance of POR 161 / 162, not move Thailand to a defacto worldwide taxation policy, albiet, still with some exemptions?

No Paw.161/162 did not do such.  Those documents only refer to income remitted into Thailand, with 1-Jan-2024 being a demarcation date.

There is no Thailand tax on global income if not remitted to Thailand.  Further, there is no requirement by Thailand to list global income due to CRS requirements, despite what some on this forum inaccurately post.

.

On 1/16/2025 at 7:57 AM, Ben Zioner said:

This will be my policy now. Just hope LTR lasts until I die, 4 or 5 years hopefully, as 77/78 would be a nice age to go.

 

We are hoping you can last much longer with a very healthy and mobile life - and able to enjoy and appreciate the great things in life.

I suspect (possibly like you) that when the 10 years of my LTR is over , and if LTR still available, I need to decide:  do I go for another 10 years, or simply revert back to a Type-O (with annual extensions) ?  Possibly by then an agent will appeal to me more which will drive up the Type-O annual extension costs, and I may still stay with the LTR visa.  ...  Taxation may also be an issue then, although that is far in the future, and given TIT, who knows?

12 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

And they rightly do as CRS rules only concern financial institutions not individuals.

Not entirely - but there is nothing in CRS rules about requiring countries to report individual's global income.  Further, CRS rules even exempt government regulated accounts for individuals.

34 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

You are free to work your way through the list of CRS Countries, and try and identify a CRS Country, where you do not have to declare foreign income.

 

 

I previously posted, this has nothing to do with CRS.  Canada was taxing global income (for Canadian residents) as far back as 1972 when I first started filing Canadian income tax return.  It was decades later before Canada became involved with OECD / CRS (2015 in case curious).  You are confusing different things here.

Again -where is your official OECD reference here?  Don't waste your time looking. There is none.

9 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Yes.

 

An agent.

 

No, nor do I care.  The agent has told me they will deal with it all. 

 

As said before, they very well may sting me this year, but not next year.  I'll give them a chance. 

 

Don't know, don't care.  That's why I will pay an agent. 

 

I have elderly (in the mid-70s to early 80s)  friends on type-O non-immigrant visa who purely for the convenience  use an agent (where they meet all immigration requirements but they don't want to suffer through lines or waits at immigration).  I don't begrudge them that and I believe for them such is a good idea.

I note you also use an agent to avoid the 800k in the bank - I won't repeat my reply there that I posted elsewhere on that aspect.

But if one is thinking of an agent strictly because they want to avoid obtaining a Thailand tax clearance certificate, my view is that it is premature to look for an agent for that reason.  A number of reports of expats who have very recently gone for 1-year extensions on their permission to  stay (on their underlying type-O visa) have noted there was no requirement for such a certificate. So its premature to look for agent to handle a 'tax clearance certificate" aspect.

28 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

but hey, I'll have a Certificate of Clearance, and sleep well. 

 

 Really?

Where will you get that from?  Have you read what the Thai RD has on that?  Let me make it easy for you ... here is the reference:

https://www.rd.go.th/english/23518.html

If you read that, you will note that it is for entering/leaving Thailand.  Not for extensions.  Currently, as written, those who stay in Thailand and never leave never have to produce such.

Also, from what I have read, it has been dormant for years. On the books.  But no longer in use.

So likely Thailand has to update such, if they wish to apply such.

Perhaps they will - but they have not done so yet, .... they have not even hinted that they are considering such (which given how often they like to explore publicly ideas that never come to pass is, shall I say, unusual if they intend to go the 'tax certificate' route)?

But who knows.  TiT.

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

Do you not see the connection between government (immigration) knowing your passport number, and the Thai banks, who have your passport number in order open an account, and new passport numbers in order to keep the account up to date?

No. i doubt they talk to each other nominally. And if they did ... I don't care.

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

Put the above two together and the TRD know how long you have been in Thailand in a tax year, and the bank knows how much you have remitted. 

I am fine with that.  I am even happy to remind them of that if they forget.

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

 

Many are banging on about a TIN and the pink card number blah, blah, blah.  Our passport numbers are linked to EVERYTHING we touch in Thailand.  Simple as that. 

As long as one legally follows Thai law in regards to taxation then one should be fine. That is what I do, and in particular I try my best to properly research the tax code and the ministerial regulations and directives so to better manage my own tax exposure.

On 1/16/2025 at 5:10 PM, Will B Good said:

Are there any (significant) benefits to obtaining these?

I have had some VERY minor benefits.

The one big benefit was there were a number of occasions where I was required to provide a Thai Tax ID Number (TIN). 

One case was where I needed to buy Thai government bonds (which I needed to do in order to get the last bit of my investment in Thailand for an LTR visa) the Bangkok Bank branch manager advised he would only permit such if I had a yellow book or pink-ID.  Then when the bank teller was entering the information in the computer (at the bank) for me to buy bonds, the system required a TIN.  Without that the teller could not progress.  I provide my pink-ID #. The computer happily accepted that. I did get my bonds, and I did get my LTR visa. I consider that significant.

I had two bank accounts frozen on me (trading account and registered savings account) in Canada, when the Canadian bank discovered I was now a Thailand resident. To unfreeze they insisted on receiving a Thai TIN (or visit Canada in person).  I provided them my pink-ID # as the tax ID#, and they unfroze my account.  Unfreezing was significant - however that is not the full story.

Although unfrozen they would only let me sell stocks and stay in cash (because I was a non-resident to Canada). So I transferred my accounts to a different Canadian organisation that would let me have a trading account and trade stocks.  However they also wanted a Thai TIN.    I provided them my pink-ID # as the tax ID#, and they allowed me to open the new accounts. That was significant (it was partly timely as I subsequently did well in the markets with that new account).

Now I actually tried to get a Thai TIN, but I failed as Phuket Revenue Department (RD) would not provide me one.  However the Phuket RD did note that my pink-ID could be my tax ID, but that they would not yet activate it (as I did not meet their requirements for having a tax ID).

I should note as well, that in the above noted cases of Canadian Financial Institutions, where I used my pink-ID as a tax-ID, I also added a caveat that the number I provided was from a Thai-ID card and that it was not yet activated as a tax-ID.

Regardless - for me this was all very significant (involving 6-figure sums of money that I would not have made  on the market had I not succeeded in trading again).

All other cases where the ID came in handy were trivial in comparison, but there were some.

33 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Ok, but why is just one bank doing it, and not even Thailand's biggest bank?   

Good question.  Its been a few years since I filled in any forms in regards to my Bangkok Bank accounts (separate Bangkok Bank accounts for currencies: Thai Baht, Euro, US$, Canadian$) - but I don't recall such from them being required.

Having typed that, my read of a PDF file on the Thai RD site, indicates that Thailand Financial Institutions will eventually require Financial institutions to contact their account holders to get some additional information (if anything other than TIN I can't recall what else - maybe passport info which they have aleady)  in order to submit such to the CRS.

Thus far, Bangkok Bank has not contacted me (unless - i did so years back and don't recall).

11 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Which might just be why Overseas Income will need to be declared, and also to ensure ....

That is nothing more than opinion. 

We have been through this over and over multiple times.  I even researched information on both the Thai and Canadian information articles describing  their compliance needed for CRS.  NONE of those mention anything about overseas income.

If you can't find a proper OECD reference regarding the CRS in regards to overseas income reporting, then you really should preference your posts  to make it clear this is only your opinion.

In my opinion you are unintentionally spreading false information with that opinion (as you actually believe your opinion true with no OECD/CRS references to support such an opinion, and with both Thai and Canadian info sheets on CRS saying nothing about such).  In fact, both Thai and Canadian faq sheet make it clear that information on some resident accounts (in those countries) that are government regulated are not to be provided to the OECD via CRS.

8 hours ago, Presnock said:

 

well, it comes down to facts - if a foreigner stays in Thailand more than 179 days in a calendar year he is a Tax Resident.  If that tax resident has assessable income key word of course is assessable, then by law he is supposed to get a Thai tax id from the revenue dept. 

I hear you ...  i read what you note.  But I think we both know the current practice is different in cases involving some foreigners.

My wife had the view (likely incorrect) that I needed a TIN even thou my income not assessable.  I did not know what was correct.

She applied online for a tax ID for me (via some Thai language site).  She had to upload my passport, pink-ID, etc ... and provided other information on me.

This goes to the Central RD office in Bangkok.  Guess what they do?  .... I'll tell you.  They pass the application to Phuket RD.

What did Phuket RD do?  They called my wife and I up on the phone (my wife answered and talked to them).  They noted they would not give me a tax ID even thou  I was spending > 180 days in Thailand (closer to 300 days per year in Thailand) as I was not remitting income to Thailand.  But ... but ...  but what about "CRS" that some post on-and-on-and-on about (not you posting that - granted). It was never mentioned.  I don't think the Phuket RD (to which Bangkok RD delegated this to) cares less about CRS for individuals.

So ?   Bangkok RD passes this to the local office to decide.

I don't dispute what you typed ... but the facts are also that neither the HQ Bangkok RD nor the local provincial RD will provide myself tax-ID at this time.

I am not saying do not file an income tax return nor am I saying don't go try to get a Thai TIN.  I am saying I tried and failed (with full disclosure to them as to my finances).

Everyone needs to decide on their own approach.

14 hours ago, koolkarl said:

The foreigners in Thailand, especially the retirees, are sitting ducks.  Canada is part of the OECD and CRS agreement for years and if you lived in Canada, you would have to report your world income, same as coming to Thailand.  But at least Canada makes you a legal immigrant and gives you health care for what that is worth there. Here, you will just get laughed at.

Yes - true that Canada requires one to report their global income, but if one is not a Canadian resident one does NOT have to pay to Canada tax on one's global income (if a non-resident to Canada).

Canada joined CRS when? In 2015. ok?  Canada going back to 1972 !!!!! (when I first started filing Canadian income tax returns) required global income be reported by Canadian tax residents. There was no CRS then.  Canada requiring global tax to be reported never has had anything to do with CRS.

Anyone who tells you otherwise has never properly researched this.  They are just putting out blind and badly formulated opinions IMHO.

On 1/16/2025 at 3:45 PM, Card said:

Google 'Common reporting standard'. The dtas require full disclosure by participating states to prevent tax evasion 

... and go a step further please and read what needs to be reported.  There is no FULL disclosure.

Both Thailand and Canada, per CRS agreement are NOT required to provide any information on government monitored/registered accounts.  In Canada this refers to RRSPs and RRIFs and some other registered Canadian government approved accounts for Canadian residents or Canadian citizens (including those abroad) to place their money and have it grow tax free.

There is MASSIVE wrong extrapolation on the views of CRS by some , believing it has massive over-reach far more than what is the truth.

.

On 1/16/2025 at 8:27 AM, Kerryd said:

I would need to see an actual reference to that - from a legitimate source - before I'd believe it.

Everything I've been reading about the subject suggests they want to see all of your income, even if it's covered by a treaty, and the only way to do that is by filing a return.
 

 The Thai tax law lists income that is NOT to be included in tax calculations.

Checkout  section-42 of the Thailand tax code states: The assessable income of the following categories shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation:

It goes on to list items - note item -17:

    17.  Income prescribed for exemption by Ministerial regulations. 

Then look at Thailand Revenue Department Ministerial directives:

Paw.161/162 which together indicate any foreign income from savings & income before 1-January-2024 are tax exempt (which suggests non-assessable income). 

Also, some foreign pensions/income, dependent on the source country DTA with Thailand, are only taxable in the source country and not in Thailand (it depends on the country - for some others only Thailand can tax the Thai-residents), which again suggests non-assessable income. 

Then examine the Thai tax return forms, keeping section-42 of the Thai tax code in mind, where in these tax forms there there is NO place to list the exemptions.

The Thai tax forms have no place for deduction of this 'ministerial exempt' income,  .. why?  Possibly because per the Thai tax code section-42 shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculations, and likely such (not assessable income) shall not be included in a Thai Tax form per Thailand law. 

Kerryd, you have your references.

Do not misconstrue my post above as saying you should not file a tax return.  I do not know your financial situation.  But please do consider Thailand tax code, consider Thailand ministerial directives, consider the DTA with the country from whence your income comes from, and consider whether (and how much if any) foreign income you remitted to Thailand (noting in particular PAW-161/162 and the DTA with the source county of your foreign income).

If you are still puzzling, and if you have no TIN , no one will stop you from going to your local Tax office and see if they will assign you a TIN and assess your tax situation. You may wish to bring a Thai-English translator with you.

Once again Kerryd, you have your references. The next step is yours.

On 1/16/2025 at 10:47 AM, kingstonkid said:

a couple of days ago, and he explained that it is only money I bring into the country. However, he advised that my Canadian Penson from the government is exempt, but he was not sure about military pensions

 

By the Canada-Thailand DTA, Canada has exclusive rights over all Canadian sourced pensions (or similar remunerations). Thailand has no taxation rights over those.  That DTA is pretty clear on that.  

Of course you will need to pay Canadian tax and file a Canadian tax return on such.