oldcpu

18 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Filed online 2023, no documentation requested.  Refund refunded.

 

Filed online 2024, also no documentation needed to file and be approved.  But ten days later received a request for a bank withholding statement. 

Apologies - I can't recall and you probably already stated .. but do you currently work in Thailand or have assessable Thai income over the RD tax filing threshold in 2023 and 2024?

For the year 2024 tax filing, do you receive year 2024 foreign pension income or other year 2024 foreign income from abroad that you remitted to Thailand? 

...  and what does the DTA with Thailand say in regards to Thailand being able to tax that foreign remitted income?  

Did you bring any pre-1-Jan-2024 foreign savings into Thailand during 2024? 

And if you did remit foreign income into Thailand in 2024 did you assess it as assessable and still manage to find a field on the tax form to deduct it ? (as there is no place to exempt on a tax form that I could find). Or simply legally (IMHO) assess it as non-assessable and hence in such a case the remitted income should not be included in tax calculation (IMHO)?

If too private ... no need to answer.  I appreciate that talking about finances can be a sensitive manner.  I am just trying to understand better your tax situation (with both tax filing and tax refunds in some cases).

13 minutes ago, Guavaman said:

 

This is a significant issue in dealing with filing a tax return.

 

Reports from members who have filed online have said that no financial supporting documentation is required.

 

On the other hand, the RD handout being provided to foreign taxpayers in Item 3 instructs the taxpayer to "Please attach a copy of your bank statement."

 

With this, the RD will see incoming remittances into your bank accounts in Thailand, including both assessable income and income that is exempt from calculation of income tax, such as government pensions, social security, inheritances, etc. If this is done in person, the tax officer could screen out exempted assessable income items that have no place to be reported on a tax return.

 

 

Just more paperwork IMHO.  As noted elsewhere in this forum, I won't be filing a Thai tax return for 2024 calendar/tax year per direction of a Thai RD official.

But if i did , to pass a Thai bank record, given my massive number of withdrawals, would be close to two dozen pages .  In the case of 2023 (if it were relevant which it is not) at most there would be 2 or 3 large remittances from outside of Thailand.  The other ~20 pages would be many many many local withdrawls for payments in Thailand (as I rarely use cash but almost always use bank transfer).  It would be a PIA for the RD to go through. 

I guess if it was me, I would mark up each page with a page number (if not already) and on first page note which pages had the few remittance to Thailand (via an edit) and then flag the remittances with a big red arrow (on the page where the few remittances were). The intent to make it easier for the RD to spot my legal tax free remittances.

It would  thou, as I noted,  be a big PIA for the RD official to dig through.

Brings to my mind a saying in regards to RD asking for this  .... "Be careful what you ask for".

.

7 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Another poster who fails to read and comprehend.

 

I did NOT obtain a TIN, so please explain how you come to believe that I will be on the TRD radar.

I hope that I am on the TRD radar.  I asked they provide me a TIN and they denied me one.  I hope that they remember such.

34 minutes ago, Guavaman said:

 

In summary, "non-assessable" is not a concept that appears within the context of the Thai Tax Code; "exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation" is the concept applied in the RD context.

 

I discovered mostly (but not totally) the same. 

I think (re; the tax code) "exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation" means non assessable (in the words of 'non-Thai' expatriates) ... and even just 'tax exempt' is considered 'non assessable' in the view of many (similar in some cases to 'exempt for the purposes of income tax calculation' even if not specifically stated 

... which I note,  does appear to be supported by what looks to be a deliberate omission (by the Thai RD) of different categories of common  exempt income that is tax exempt,  as note in Royal Decrees (such as LTR), in ministerial instructions (such as por.161/162) and in selected DTAs.

Why would the RD  DELIBERATELY (caps intended by me to make a point) omit an exempt entry field in a tax return form, if  a DTA ,or if a Royal Decree or a ministerial exemption says such can be an exempt deduction?  Why?  IMHO that clearly suggests such exempt income is not to be reported.

It disappointing to see the lack of clarity and see the confusion here.

I do believe that anyone who reports remitted income that is 100% exempt tax (due to DTAs) on their tax return, or remitted income that is 100% exempt tax (due to por.161/162) on their tax return, or remitted income that is 100%  tax exempt (due to Royal Decree) on their tax return, will still be mistakenly taxed on such because there is no place on the tax returns to list such as an exemption.  This is true for the 2023 Thai tax return in English language and this is true for the 2024 tax return in Thai language. I speculate that those who put such exemptions in the tax return, in the wrong field (and there is no good field), will I believe have such exemptions denied, and will pay tax on income that is tax exempt.

Then one is into appeal territory.  And good luck with that.

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

3 times I counted Carl trying to get an answer on exempt income under DTA's and was given a stiff ignoring.

The answers did appear to meander around this question and not address it head on. 

I note comments are turned off on the video.  That was strange. Clearly they don't want feedback nor more questions.

The video jumps around a bit.

I skimmed through some of the video and did not watch it all. 

From what I could decipher - tax free income is treated as non assessable income (although those specific words were not consistently chosen):

- Income from before 1-Jan-2024 is tax free (ie non assessable - my words). Hence this is not to be included on a tax form.  But one should keep records to prove this.

- For pension income, it depends on each country (DTA) whether the income is tax free or taxable (ie non-assessable or assessable) - my interpretation of what was being said in the video. 

Also the foreign source of the pension income is important if it is taxable or tax free.  If  the income is tax free (non assessable) by Thailand (ie my words: if DTA claims only source country can tax), it does not go on a tax form. At least that is what I deciphered. Draw one's own conclusions from watching.

- For foreign pensions remitted to Thailand, if both the foreign country and Thailand can tax the income (per a DTA), then even if one has already paid tax in the foreign country, one still needs to apply for a tax ID and file a Thai tax return. Then the appropriate rebates/credits can take place (that is my wording).  This IMHO is well known and not disputed on this forum.

Inheritance and gifts, if remitted to Thailand are not taxable. Personal assets (such as a car outside of Thailand) from before 1-Jan-2024 sold and brought into Thailand, are not taxable.  But evidence is required to prove.

Again, the video jumped around, so do not believe what I typed/interpreted.  I recommend do not believe what I typed. Try and watch this one's self.

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

The message appears clear, unless you remit income below the filing thresholds, which are 60k / 120k / 220 k Baht, depending on income or single / joint filing. File and prove how your income is not taxable ( DTA ) or the tax Credit method.

 

Message is clear for assessable income that is not tax free and not tax exempt. And that is not new news.

However most of the discussions on this thread and others is about income made non assessable due to tax exemptions (such as por-161/162 and some DTAs (not all DTAs)).

Again, the video jumped around, so do not believe what I typed/interpreted.  I recommend do not believe what I typed. Try and watch this one's self.

Frankly - I am very disappointed with the video as it was not as clear as would have been more helpful.

4 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

There was nothing ambiguous about ' 15 / 16 years ago, when I first came here , I was told '

i won't get into semantics.

I do recommend you go back to the tax office and get another assessment before you file any 2024 tax return, if the DTA with your country states only your country can tax your pension ,and if you have no Thai income and if you remitted that DTA specified non-Thai taxable income into Thailand.

As I typed before, if you do not double check this with an RD official who does not make a mistake (like the last one) you could end up being taxed on income that is tax exempt.

This is your call obviously - but I fear you are headed down the wrong path. However you don't seem to be concerned - so obviously, feel free to adopt your own approach.  For others thou, i don't recommend your approach (if their income is noted in a DTA as only being taxed in the source country, which is not Thailand).

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Because the period I was talking about, from around 2009 through to 2020, I was never a tax resident.

 

From 2021, I have been a tax resident ( Over 180 days )

 

Jeepers creepers, did you think you had tripped me up or something ?

You had me wondering. Your post was ambiguous.

3 minutes ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

The RD Lawyer states that if you have no assessable income there is no need to get a TIN and no need to file a return.  

 

As I only remitted pre 2024 income last year (end of year 2023 Bank Statements to prove), my Australian Government Service Pension is specifically excluded under the DTA (not the Australian Aged Pension) and I held an LTR for the duration of 2024, I am very comfortable in not getting a TIN and filing a return. 

I am mostly in the same situation.   I even had a Phuket RD official tell me (via my wife) not to file a Thai tax return (nor would he give me a TIN).

But things can change - and so I try to understand the current tax regulations.  

3 minutes ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

But this is not a one size fits all situation.  Everyone has different circumstances.  But it made it clear again to keep or have access to paperwork especially if you are only bringing in pre 2024 income.

Indeed.  A very good point.

8 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I would suggest that anyone who has a Thai bank account is already on the RD's radar

That should not be a worry if people follow Thai law.

Compared to Canada (and for that matter Germany), Thailand has a pretty nice tax law.

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Looking into taxation over the last 18 months or so, I was never a tax resident ( 180 days ) anyway.

 

Ok ... then why did you go to the RD office?

When my wife talked to the RD on my behalf, the VERY FIRST thing they asked, was I a tax resident?  Had I been in Thailand for 180 days or greater?  Then they asked, what were the source(s) of my income.

I am surprised an RD official took the time to fill in a draft tax form for you, given that you are not a tax resident.

.

21 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Every Canadian would cry, my income is a pension

 

That is very easy for the Thai RD to find the truth if they wanted.  All they have to do is ask for certain Canadian documents as proof, and then watch anyone lying back peddle really really fast.

30 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

At this point in time it is still a cluster.

 

I'll repeat what I said above " When I came here 15 / 16 years ago, I was told that as long as you are not working and earning, nobody gives a monkeys Tax wise.

Indeed.  I was here 25 years ago (as a digital nomad then) and people were saying that re:taxation.

But it was also at that time wrong in terms of tax law - rather it represented what was practically in place.

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

The P60's show the same information as @Dah fahrang tax printout from the HMRC website.

 

 

I checked his post - and he does not mention if his pension was a civil servant or military pension and whether that was or was not taxable in Thailand according to the Thai - UK DTA.  I understand UK civil servant/military pensions are only taxable in the UK, but other UK pensions ? Is that also the case? Perhaps non-civil servant UK pensions are taxable in Thailand?  I don't know that DTA.

This is important - so if you are going to compare to Dah fahrang you need to specify and explain that and confirm you have same type of pensions  (as I do believe Dah fahrang did NOT specify that) else the comparison is meaningless. 

16 minutes ago, Dah fahrang said:

Time taken: about 45 minutes, including peripheral chatter with my wife. 

 

 

 Did this include the time to obtain a Thai TIN ? or did you already have a Thai TIN?

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

The UK - Thai DTA says that my UK Government Pension ( This is the important part ) is only taxable in the UK.

 

 

A DTA is not going to use 'custom Thai' expressions to define income. 

Rather it follows the international practice for wording. 

So if a DTA says only taxable in UK (I assume this is a civil servant / military pension) then it is NOT taxable in Thailand.

This does not mean tax exempt. 

It means NOT taxable (if I understand your post correctly , assuming you are not using different word from the DTA).

In that case, clearly to me (ie IMHO)  that income should be treated as non assessable.   If non-assessable, then it need not be included in a Thai tax calculation and should not go on a tax form. 

I can only conclude that the RD official made a mistake. 

If you are skeptical, I would (if I were you) return to the RD if not too far away  (with a Thai version of the DTA in hand if possible, and if not the English language version) and ask again. Perhaps even bring a copy of Royal Decree 18 with you (although I do not believe that should be necessary).

Every one makes mistakes now and then - and the same is true for RD officials.

.

18 minutes ago, Nik23 said:

So, just a question:What people who withdraw money from atm, are supposed to do now?Take all the receipts  from 2024 to the RD Officer and voluntarily  declare their income that came into the country?

I suspect a single (multi-page) bank statement, possibly with hand marked up explanations, and then scanned electronically (for an electronic submission and for one's records) would be better than  "all the receipts".

Having typed that, I am not saying doing that.

Like everyone else (even if in my case I am not so much affected) I am curious as to how this will evolve. 

Every now and then (when absent minded) i will use a foreign credit card (instead of my Thai credit card) for a Thai purchase ... and of course, then some might claim - assessable income !! put this on your tax return.

I probably should follow my wife' advice and lock up my foreign credit cards when in Thailand.  The problem there is I used to do that, and in one past visit outside of Thailand, I forgot to bring my foreign credit cards with me.  ....

Being absent minded at times has its problems.  lol !!

23 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

It also matters not a jot, that Thailand will not receive a Satang in tax, what matters more to me is sticking to the rules as best I can.

 

I certainly would not like to get my self in a pile of excrement, and possibly lose 15 years of setting up a good life, for the sake of a lousy tax form.

We both have the same view there in regards to what I quoted.

I am on an LTR visa and the Royal Decree 743 makes it clear one can lose their tax exemption if one does not follow the Thai Minister of Finances rules.

So even thou I  have a certain strong opinion about no Thai tax return needed if income only from  remitted foreign income (as an LTR visa holder) , and an opinion about no Thai  tax return needed for foreign income remitted (if exempt under a DTA) , and an opinion about no Thai tax needed for foreign income remitted (if exempt per por.161.162) , I still decided in advance to remit no foreign funds into Thailand in 2024 calendar/tax year.  This (not needing to file a Thai tax return) was confirmed with a Phuket RD official if I remitted no foreign income and if had had no Thai income)- and further he would not give me a Thai tax ID.

I know sometime in next few years I will have to start remitting foreign money to Thailand - and I probably could do such today tax free with no Thai income tax return submission required.  But 'probably' is not good enough for me ... so I will wait a few years and do my very best to learn off of the experience of others.

For while I clearly have a strong opinion on this (no tax return needed for the noted remitted income), I see no need to take a chance, as my opinions are not always 100% correct.

Every expat (IMHO) should  be aware of their own financial situation in regards the the DTA with their income source country, and the status of their funds relative to por.161-162, and make their own decision given their financial situation. 

16 minutes ago, Celsius said:

 

Thanks. I do Canadian non resident tax return every year. Remitting.... using a credit card?

I tried credit card once (paying trivial amount owed to Revenue Canada by a credit card). Maybe I did it wrong.  It failed at first and on a later attempt I had an extra (big) payment company fee relative to a small amount of tax due.

Then (stupid me) in a subsequent year, I did a bank transfer from a Canadian bank to Revenue Canada. That worked for Revenue Canada, but somehow that woke up the Canadian bank to my being a non-resident to Canada. The Canadian Bank immediately froze my RRSP and my Canadian margin trading account.  It took me almost a year to sort that, so I could trade again (moving all funds to a different financial institution).

On 1/20/2025 at 11:45 AM, Finlaco said:

Hi

 

I've been in Thailand for a long time but never needed to get a document in English translated to Thai for official Government purposes.   

 

Has any TV member done it recently in Bangkok?  Any recommendation?  Costs?

 

The translation is for 

 

The Legalisation and Naturalisation Division, 
Department of Consular Affairs,
Ministry of Foreign Affairs,

Changwattana

 

Has any TV member used a translation service at Changwattana?

 

 

Please don't reply if you are having a bad day or if the translation was done outside of Bangkok.

 

Thanks

 

 

I used VM translation service but it was not recently (it was done in the year 2020 time frame).

https://www.facebook.com/SutthiratYimyong/?locale=th_TH

I wanted to have my Canadian marriage to my Thai wife registered in Thailand for Visa purposes.  I live in Phuket, and VM Services is in Bangkok. This was around the start of COVID times - so travel was difficult.   So after (my Thai wife) contacting them on they phone, they advised us what to send, and we couried all the appropriate documents to them, and they handled the rest.

Part of this was to give them limited power of attorney to represent my wife and I in this activity.  They translated the documents (they are certified translators for English language to Thai language). They took copies of my marriage documents and passport to Canadian Embassy and had such certified. And then took such to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and had such certified by them. And then couriered all back to me.

I did not at first think such was possible (and was 'moaning' a bit on AseanNow), but Ubon Joe, bless his soul, set me straight and advised me to surf the internet and find such a service as he noted there were various companies that provide such.

Possibly the only area where I 'deviated' a bit was in the 'power of attorney' document I signed, where I hand edited the wording a bit to restrict the power of attorney to only handling documents associated with registering my Canadian marriage in Thailand.

8 minutes ago, Negita43 said:

Just a thought - are governments becoming too powerful?

I think every one has been asking that question for the past 3,000 ? years.

3 minutes ago, Celsius said:

need to file a tax return, yes or no answer only.

To Germany? No. German government sent me a letter (despite my having German + Europe pension income) and advised me I did not have to file a German tax return since I was a Thai tax resident. 

To Canada? Yes. Canada taxes ALL Canadian sourced income for both residents & non-residents.  None of the Canadian DTAs (to best of my knowledge) avoid that Canadian policy.

To Thailand? No. Phuket RD was quite clear some months back, that given I was remitting no money to Thailand in the 2024 calendar year and since I had no Thai income, that I did NOT qualify for a Thai TIN ,and that I should NOT file a Thai tax return.

2 hours ago, CallumWK said:

 

Take a look at this post from last year, when I went to visit the revenue department in Jomtien.

There is a lot of trust there (by Thai RD) in what you posted.

For me?

I would ensure I stayed 100% legal and kept records of everything to back up my legal tax management approach. Just because someone 'trusts one' does not mean that someone might not come back sometime and do an audit.

Having typed that - Thanks for sharing.  Most interesting.

.

11 minutes ago, koolkarl said:

Haha.  Well if you like giving your money to the Thai government and get absolutely nothing back except more polluted air, be  my guest. If you gave the same money to me, at least I would be your friend.

You are allowed to stay in Thailand.   THAT is what you get in return. 

There is more than just 'immigration' aspects to stay in ANY country in this world, and that includes Thailand.

One needs to follow the local tax laws.  Including tax laws.

Try staying in any G7 country as a non-citizen , who is a tax resident to those countries.  Thailand is no different there  - except Thailand does not (yet) tax global income if not remitted to Thailand.

If the polluted air bothers you (and it would bother me, which is why I live in the south of Thailand) then you should move.

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I think you are looking for things that do not exist.

 

If I went to the RD Office this afternoon, I could fill in my details ( Less TIN ) on a PND91

 

Section A

 

Box 1. Salaries, wages, pensions etc                  XXXXXXX Baht

 

Box 2. Less Exempted income   ( The same )   XXXXXXX Baht

 

Annual Bank Printout

 

Copies of my P60's

 

Copy of UK - Thai DTA.

 

With an explanation of why the whole XXXXXXX Baht is exempt *

 

And ask for a TIN to actually file it. They might give me one, or they might tell me no need. Either way, I have something of substance to produce in the event of any future questions.

 

* Exempt meaning not liable to Thai Taxation as opposed to being exempt filing a tax return.

 

Or perhaps all the fields will be available when the updated English Language Form is released. Or as I said previously, it might not be an updated English Language Form, it might be a complete new form that covers all foreign income, taxes paid and DTA's.

 

 

 

Cyclist ..  I examined PID.90 and PID.91 (year 2023 English language version  and also the Thai language 2024 version).  They do not support what you posted.

Details:

If one looks at PID.91 (2023) tax computation:

A.(1) is Salaries, wages pensions (plus exempted income from B.5).
A.(2) is Less exempted income (from B.6)

B.5 ?  That is Severance Pay under Labour Law.

B.6?  That is the total of B.1 to B.5 to be filled in A.2 (ie Private fund contribution + Government Pension fund contribution + Private teacher aid fund contribution + Income exemption (limited to ONLY "disabled taxpayer under age-65" and "taxpayer aged 65 years or older (including diabled taxpayer), + Severance pay under labour law.

If one then looks at Allowance(s) and Exemption(s) after Deduction of Expense(s) Attachment

No where is there ANY location for DTA exempt income, nor for por-161/162 exempt income, nor for LTR exempt income.

= = =

So instead ... if one looks at PID.90 (2023):

No.1 (1) Section 40 (1) : Salary, wage, pension etc (included exempted income from 2.(4))
No.1 (2) does not address anything to do with Por-161/162 nor DTA exemptions.  It only includes (1)Provident fund contributions, (2) Government Pension Fund contributions, (3) Private teacher aid fund contributions, and (4) Serverance Pay under Labour law.

The "No.2" is where Assessable income under section 40(3) is ADDED and NOT subtracted.

There is no No.2(4) that is 'obvious' unless one refers to "Allowances and Exemptions after Deduction of Expensives Attachment" where "4" is "Parential care".

Further if one examines "Allowances and Exemptions after Deduction of Expensives Attachment" there is NO place for Por-161/162 nor DTA exemptions, nor LTR exempt income.  The sum of this goes to 11(2).

Conclusion:

I caution any one reading this thread, who has exempt income under Por-161/162 or a DTA , or an LTR visa, to be very skeptical as to what Cyclist posted.  Study the forms yourself and draw your own conclusion.

My conclusion?
 
There is NO place for Por-161/162 nor DTA exemptions, nor LTR exempt income.  If one tries to force those exemptions in any exemption field in PID-90 or PID-91 , they could be denied as exemptions (as they are in the wrong field being 'forced' into such by you) and hence you risk paying Thai tax on income that is supposed to be 100% exempt taxation.