oldcpu

correcting error ...

9 minutes ago, koolkarl said:

Such wishful comments by dreamers.  This wealth tax is again linked to the CRS.  

As long as one is legally managing one's tax exposure,  why would one care?

4 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I haven't filed anything, yet.

 

But as my only remitted income in 2024 is my Government Pension, I have an A4 envelope, complete with annual bank statement, copies of my P60's, that I can easily transfer to paperwork, depending what the updated paperwork says.

 

That does not get away from the fact that the RD Office used a PND 91 to put my pension details, and another poster has also said that he uses a PND 91 for his pension.

 

So clearly it can be done.

Yes, but will the exemptions be rejected, because you placed them in a tax return field which is intended for something else,  and you end up paying tax on funds that were supposed to be tax exempt?

Sure - it can be done (assuming the RD assigns one a TIN - some of us failed in that attempt) - but if done, will one then be in appeal territory? 

I think we are beginning to see now more and more reports from those who state they are being told by local RD that certain types of remitted foreign income are exempt, and no tax filing necessary (unless one has local income or one has foreign income that is not exempt).

8 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

I did visit my tax office.  Showed the lady a list of my remittances.  She asked "salary or pension"?  I said neither, prior savings.  She said non-assessable is not reported, no filing necessary unless requesting a refund of withholding tax.

 

Interesting.

Thanks for posting that tidbit. 

18 minutes ago, Pib said:

And regarding one other piece of  important red text regarding "maintaining" your LTR visa is ensuring you "continue" to meet the requirements thru the visa period.  See BOI LTR snapshot below. 

 

An applicant maybe shouldn't try to "short term peak" his LTR income for  a year or two just before applying for an LTR visa while "knowingly he can not maintain" the required level of income and other LTR requirements after the LTR visa is approved/issued. 

 

Maybe kinda like doing some large cap gain sale for a year or two just before applying for an LTR visa in order to meet the LTR income documentation requirements while knowingly can not maintain anything close to those couple of big sales in ensuring years; therefore, knowingly not being able to maintain the LTR requirements after it was issued.

 

Now when it comes time for the  LTR visa "mid-term" renewal/revalidation/whatever you want to call it., that is, time to get the 2nd 5 year period of stay issued for the 10 year LTR visa how and even if BOI will require documents to prove you "maintained" requirement throughout the 1st 5 year period is really unknown at this time.  Hopefully, they will just look at the previous one or two years just like when initially applying....basically be a streamlined repeat of when initially applying and of course with no fee since you already paid for the entire 10 year visa when first approved.   

 

But we probably won't know for sure what the mid-term review requirements will be until around mid 2027 just before the very first LTR visas were issued in Sep 2022 and are due their 2nd 5 year (mid term) issue period.    Time will tell.

 

 

I qualified for the LTR-WP via the $40k US equiv income per year + $250k US equiv invest in Thailand.  To meet the $250k US equiv I needed about another 1.5-million THB of investment, so I purchased a 2-million THB , 7-year Thai government bond.

My plan for year 2028 on the LTR-WP, when I have to renew,  is to switch to the $80k US equiv income from the $40k US equiv income (and sell or let expire my 7 year Thai government bonds), and I am setting up (restructuring a bit) my finances to 'just' meet that income level (and not exceed by very much).  If I exceed the $80k US equiv income by even a bit too much I get hammered by Canadian taxes. 

However given changing exchange rates (between Cdn$ and US$), there is always a chance I miscalculate when restructuring and fall a bit short of the $80k US$ annual income.  So as I backup I also plan to have in reserve easily accessable funds to  buy another 2-million THB in Thai government bonds in case I miscalculate on the income amount prepared.

So in my case, I plan to do some financial restructuring in preparation for year 2028 for my LTR-WP renewal.

I also hope to switch to using my foreign (Cigna) European health insurance instead of keeping $100k US$ equivalent in a bank for self-health insurance (where for BoI at present I am using the self-health insurance route). 

I wish one of those who obtained a letter from their health insurance company, claiming they met the appropriate health insurance requirement (for the LTR visa) that they would post the EXACT WORDING of said letter (with any private aspects blocked/whited out). 

Thus far no one has done such - but rather only provided some rather vague descriptions of purported said health insurance letter's contents.

.

7 minutes ago, Delight said:

 I acquired my TIN and paid my taxation in a short period of time

,

Stage 1 went to immigration and obtained a TM30. A document confirming your address is essential-that plus regular photo copies 

of passport.

Stage 2 . Visited the Chonburi TRD  (Thailand Revenue Department ) . This is located in Jomtien  TIN acquired .

Stage 3 Paid my tax liability. at the same location.

Easy

Great.  Out of curiousity, what does the DTA (with Thailand) of the country of your income source say about your income taxability in regards to Thailand? 

And were you remitting current (2024) year income or income from before 2024?  Was your income from a pension? or other source?  If a pension, was it a civil servant pension or a non-civil servant pension from the government or a company?

Everyone's case is different, and its difficult to extrapolate conclusions without better understanding the details.

Thanks for sharing.

38 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

This is nothing new.  DTAs have have been around for a long time and foreign remitted income was always table in Thailand if remitted to Thailand in the year it was earned.  Yet there has deliberately been no place for DTA tax exemptions in the Thai tax forms for years.  This has lead a number of us to speculate that if a DTA makes it clear Thailand can not tax a foreign income, then that foreign income should not be entered into a Thai tax form.

Damn auto spell check/correction  (on my computer software).

I meant to type "taxable" and not "table" in the above. The 'edit' time timed out before I noticed my typo

6 hours ago, Guavaman said:

How about a third possible interpretation?  Something like this:

3) There is no need to present a [copy of one's national] tax return in Thailand. Except in cases where it is necessary to show it to the agency that needs it only [such as offices of the Revenue Department for the process of calculation of tax on assessable income or for audits.]

That is an interpretation , but it is not one I speculate is the planned case. 

Why?

Because I believe the word "no need to present [a copy of one's foreign] tax return in Thailand" would have the word 'foreign' used.  ie. the word 'foreign' would be inserted.

The word 'foreign' was not inserted.

This is Thailand. When the Thailand RD talks of a tax return, unless otherwise very specifically and definitely specified (by typing the word "foreign") one assumes they are talking of a Thailand tax return. Not talking of a 'foreign' tax return.

Again  - There was no mention of 'foreign' tax return,  .... only in prior sentence a note of DTAs. So we both see different interpretations.

I am curious to learn how this will all plan out.  As each day goes by I am glad I took precautions in previous years to be able to ride out things financially when uncertainties such as these tax interpretations and ambiguities are in place.

8 minutes ago, Bangel72 said:

This I think is a key question with huge impact.

 

If tax free threshold in Thailand in 60k and you remit 500k which was tax free in home country would 440k be taxed even with double taxation in place?

 

Retiring in Thailand would be hit hard if that's the case.

 

 

I think one can put together an exemption package much larger than 60k THB.  Will it reach 500k ?  I don't know - i suspect it depends on one's age, one's marital status ... etc.

Others have posted about this on this forum.

15 minutes ago, CallumWK said:

 

My pension started on January 2024, so virtually all money in the bank is from before 2024, but I'm not gonna gamble to send it here lol

If you have the financial luxury to wait it out (before remitting to Thailand) while the need to file or not file a Thai tax return (for pre-1-Jan-2024 remitted income to Thailand), that might be a good idea. 

Currently there is no place on the English language 2023 Thai tax form to list por-161/162 exempt savings as being tax exempt, nor any place on the Thai language 2024/2025 tax forms to list por-161/162 exempt savings as being tax exempt. 

Yet despite that, many claim one must still list those incomes, and presumably put the exemption entry in the wrong place in the tax forms (as there is no correct place to locates such - where RD Thailand could then reject the exemption and tax one the full amount).  Its a bit of a catch-22 ....

... and given its a bit of a catch-22, it is good if you have the luxury to wait it out.  That is also my strategy.

16 minutes ago, Bangel72 said:

Has anyone done there 2024 tax returns yet? 

 

The following on the face of it seems reasonably straight forward. 

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/lorkhor/newspr/2024/FOREIGNERS_PAY_TAX2024.pdf

 

However what counts as evidence for both the idea that money brought into thailand was all earned before 1st Jan 2024 or taxed abroad under a double tax treaty may prove problematic. 

I think where many of us struggle, is when we look at the English language Thai tax form for tax-year 2023 (the English language year 2024 Thai tax form is not yet out) and when we look at the Thai language year 2024 tax form (and even the 2025 Thai tax form which is out) there is no place to list exemptions such as those noted in a DTA (between Thailand and one's income sourced country), no place to list an exemption for remitted income that is exempt per Por-161/162, and no place to list an exemption for income per the LTR visa for LTR-WP, LTR-WFTP, and LTR-WGC visa holders. 

If one goes ahead, uses the 2023 tax form (for year 2024) and puts the exemption in a field it is not intended, the risk is Thailand RD could reject the exemption and tax one the full amount on income that is legally exempt. Then one is into appeal territory and this starts to get very very painful.

This is nothing new.  DTAs have have been around for a long time and foreign remitted income was always table in Thailand if remitted to Thailand in the year it was earned.  Yet there has deliberately been no place for DTA tax exemptions in the Thai tax forms for years.  This has lead a number of us to speculate that if a DTA makes it clear Thailand can not tax a foreign income, then that foreign income should not be entered into a Thai tax form.

Of course this gets more complicated when the DTA states Thailand may tax the foreign income, and trying to find the location in the tax form to deal with this (so not to be double taxed) is not very obvious (to me). Fortunately, I am not in that situation.

16 minutes ago, Bangel72 said:

Most people do not seem to be the targets of this initiative but may get caught in the crossfire due to lack of documentation and evidence rather than legitimately liable to pay tax in Thailand. 

This has always been a concern, I believe, of many in this thread and in other AseanNow threads.

.

1 minute ago, CallumWK said:

 

That is also what my embassy informed me about in 2023.

 

The tax on my pension is covered by the DTA, so I get taxed on it in Belgium. But if I remit it to Thailand, and the tax scale in Thailand is higher than Belgium, I will pay the difference in Thailand.

Of course there was no mention of what happens if the tax scale in Thailand is lower.

And now, my pension isn't taxed in Belgium, because I'm below the threshold. I receive annually about 500K baht pension.

What happens if I remit this to Thailand, as i believe the threshold for being tax free is much lower here

 

I think, as you note, understanding the exact levels of the taxation thresholds, will dictate how much money you can remit to Thailand before Thailand taxation sets in. 

I guess this becomes a 'numbers game' at a certain point of time for you, in order to legally manage your Thailand tax exposure.  .... Don't forget there is por-161/162 (ie foreign savings/income prior to 1-Jan-2024 not taxed if remitted to Thailand any time in the future).

Best wishes.

On 1/17/2025 at 9:48 AM, Celsius said:

I was chatting with my friend from Serbia who came to visit, and she basically looked at me like I was an idiot and asked, "Why on earth are you declaring your Toronto condo rental to Canada?!" (And that was just the tip of the iceberg.) She was like, "Why bother filing taxes in Canada when you don’t even live there?!" It was a rapid-fire "Why this?" and "Why that?" like I had just invented a new form of self-sabotage.

Canada has always tried to make a global reach on taxing Canadian citizens. Possibly Revenue Canada looks to the south and observes USA taxing its citizens globally, and maybe is jealous?   However the Canadian policy is to only tax residents (and accordingly Canada lays down strict requirements as to what interests in Canada one must divest to no longer be considered a Canadian resident).

Any income sourced in Canada is taxed in Canada. That is Canada's policy.

Further anyone who is a Canadian resident, is taxed on their global income AND must report their global assets to Canada. This is nothing new - its been that way since I first started submitting Canadian tax returns back in the early 1970s.

Further, Canada wants to know the global income of non-residents to Canada (if those non-residents to Canada have any Canadian sourced income).  Canada wants this so they can tune the tax rate/bracket for any Canadian sourced income of the non-residents to Canada (who have Canadian income).

But Thailand? 

Despite all the hype and concern, Thailand is a breath of fresh air for anyone trying to manage their tax exposure differently from what they experienced in Canada.  Thailand does not (yet) tax global income of Thailand tax residents if the money stays outside of Thailand (in contrast to Canada).

Thailand also has agreed to DTAs (Royal Decree 18 generically calls the DTAs) can have tax exemptions to Thai taxation in cases.  Canada is one such case (Canadian pensions shall ONLY be taxed in Canada and not in Thailand).  Further Thailand has a ministerial directive (Por-161/162)  that notes any income/savings earned/saved from before 1-Jan-2024, if remitted to Thailand any time in the future  will not be taxed in Thailand.  Thailand has even a long term visa (LTR-WP - Royal Decree 743) for Wealthy Pensioners where foreign income will not be taxed when remitted to Thailand.

That is NOT to say Thailand has the best tax regime in the world for one looking to legally reduce their tax exposure.  But its better than Canada.

On 1/17/2025 at 9:48 AM, Celsius said:

I'm out and I'll be watching that door thanx in advance.

Best wishes (and I type that honestly with a good heart) in finding a country with a tax regime you like.  I do honestly hope you succeed and enjoy yourself. There are great places in this world

Please thou, keep in mind other factors than just the money/tax.  ie hospital quality.  crime rate.  food quality.  etc ... 

And if you are still young enough to not mind traveling for long durations, then 5-months in Thailand, 5-months in country-A, and 2-months in country-B could be a good approach for you.  That does not appeal to me (I am getting too old and comfortable in my condo in southern Thailand) but it might be a great option for you.  The world is full of great places, and taking the opportunity to see them and spend time in them is a dream of many of us.

Again - all the best wishes.

1 minute ago, madone said:

 wtf does this even mean?

Malaysia changed their tax implementation that affected foreigners living there.

30 minutes ago, Misty said:

 

Hi Samtam, Please can you post a link to where to complete the 2024 PND90 online? I've been trying to get a pdf of the new 2024 form and have only come up with old forms and translations. 

 

My apologies if this form is widely available - I've used google search broadly and also on this form and not been able to find the pdf. Just a lot of discussion about it.

 

 

I am not Samtam. ...  and likely as you know re: RD web site tax forms ...

You can find Thai language tax forms here:
https://www.rd.go.th/65971.html

2024 Thai language (and even 2025 Thai language) tax forms are available for download.

However on the English language only thus far year 2023 tax form:
https://www.rd.go.th/english/65308.html

That sort of begs the question, if attention is being paid to expats in Thailand (with an intent to tax them) why the delay in 2024 English language Thai tax forms?

From here on end this is pure speculation by me ...

One speculative answer could be they are redesigning the English language tax form with different entries. I suppose that possible, but nominally in the past, it looked to me that both the English language and Thai language tax forms were mostly aligned, and had the same content (but with different language wording). So if there were to be big changes in the English language tax form, I would expect the same in the 2024/2025 Thai language forms. But there were no big changes.

Another speculative answer is there may be debate within the RD as to whether they will continue to provide English language tax forms, and until the internal debate is sorted, there will only be Thai language tax forms for year 2024.  Of course, if Thai RD is very keen to tax foreigners, why would they delay putting out the 2024 tax forms ?  or could it be rushing to tax foreigners is not as high on the Thai RD priority list as some may think?

Again - pure speculation.

2 hours ago, Andycoops said:

Same here, 2 different numbers and I also showed them my Pink ID card and Yellow house book.

How did you go about the TIN application?

Did you show up, say please I wish a Thai TIN , and hand them all your documents ( including pink ID buried withtheremainder of your documents) ?

or 

Did you show up, pass them you pink ID, and say please activate this pink ID # as a tax ID and pass over remaining documents when provided?

It doesn't matter which .... 

But I suspect in the first approach,  the pink ID may have been ignored by RD official until too late, and then rather than restart all the paperwork on their side to then use Pink ID ( and lose face with RD colleagues for doing work twice) they simply issued you a new tax ID, and ignored pink ID. .. or possibly they didn't know the process to activate a pink ID as a tax ID and rather than ask for help from colleagues ( and lose face for not knowing) they issued a new tax ID.

Of course that is speculation by myself. 

49 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

What does that mean before translation into English?

 

If my country has a DTA with Thailand, then

 

1)  I don't need to file (present) a Thai tax return at all?

2)  I don't need to submit (present) a copy of my national tax return when I file a Thai tax return?

My non-expert view on this is if your income source country DTA with Thailand says the income can only be taxed in the income source country, then  there is no need to include remitted foreign income (from that source country to Thailand) in a Thai tax return - and if that is one's only income, there is no need to file a Thai tax return.

However I speculate the "except in cases ... " wording could apply if one's DTA with Thailand allows Thailand to tax the pension.  That could mean filing a Thai tax return is needed (only) if foreign income remitted to Thailand.  As to how the details work out on the tax return ... I don't know and I have not looked at that as such does not apply for me, given I am on an LTR visa and further given that I am remitting no foreign money to Thailand at present time (I remitted a bunch previously when I was a non-resident to Thailand).

35 minutes ago, CallumWK said:

 

Belgium.

 

I don't remit anything to Thailand, so for now it's not taxable, unless the rumours of worldwide income tax get enforced in the future

I took a quick look at the pension section in the Belgium-Thai DTA.  From that DTA:

Quote

Subject to provisions of article-18, pensions or other remunerations for past employment arising in a Contracting State (Belgium) and paid to a resident of the other Contracting state (Thailand) may be taxed in the first-mentioned state (Belgium).

...

note the words "may be taxed" ...  That suggests to me both states (Thailand and Belgium) may be able to tax the pension.

Why do I think that?  Well contrast that to the words in the Canada-Thai DTA which state:
 

Quote

"Pensions and other similar remuneration, whether they consist of periodic or non-periodic payments, for past employment, arising in a Contracting State (Canada) and paid to a resident of the other Contracting State (Thailand) shall be taxable only in the first-mentioned State (Canada).

Note the difference in wording.  The Belgium-Thai DTA states "may be taxed" while the Canada-Thai DTA states "shall be taxable only".

The Belgium-Thai DTA goes on to note Belgium civil service pensions are only taxed in Belgium (unless one a Thai citizen).

Although I believe for Belgium (non-civil service) pension income to be taxed in Thailand one needs to remit that income to Thailand.  Where your approach not to remit seems to work to manage your tax exposure.

... anyway ... its interesting to see differences in the DTAs. 

as for residency, in the case of me and Canada, becoming a  Canadian tax resident would be a big mistake for me, as Canada would then go after all of my global income and assets.  Its better for me at present time to be a Thai tax resident. I suspect everyone is different here.

Note also - I am no tax expert , so readers should come to their own conclusions - and not blindly follow my opinions.

Just now, NoDisplayName said:

 

What does that mean before translation into English?

 

If my country has a DTA with Thailand, then

 

1)  I don't need to file (present) a Thai tax return at all?

2)  I don't need to submit (present) a copy of my national tax return when I file a Thai tax return?

 ...  further - you need to read a bit further as there is "except in cases where it is necessary to show ..."  and at that point it gets even more confusing.

But re: your question, what does the DTA of the source country of your income say?

7 minutes ago, CallumWK said:

 

You beat me to it.

To me that sounds as if the revenue office in your home country, automatically will forward all your earnings to the Thai revenue department.

And that was also what my bank told me, when I was asked where my tax residency would be. If I select Thailand as my tax residency, I will be exempt of withholding on my interests, but it comes with a caveat.

 

If you use the tax exemption, the document is valid for one year and the taxes are passed on to the selected tax office.

 

I decided to keep my tax residency in my home country.

May I ask what country?

In the case of Canada - only Canada can tax Canadian sourced pension even if one is a Thailand resident. Thailand is not to tax such (per the Canadian-Thai DTA). I doubt Canada forwards anything to Thailand.

In the case of Germany?  its the opposite.  Only Thailand can tax a German sourced pension if one is a Thailand resident. Germany is not to tax such (per the German-Thai DTA).  Germany might ??? forward something to Thailand.

but ...  its not clear.

Important here is one still has to remit the German pension income into Thailand to be taxable by Thailand.  This is also true for other foreign sourced income. Currently if the income is left outside of Thailand it is not taxable in Thailand.

7 minutes ago, Guavaman said:

 

It appears that the RD has finally issued clarification in the form of a handout for foreign taxpayers to be provided by local tax offices. This has been reported twice now, with the most recent case in Chiang Mai. In the box on the bottom, it states: 

 

You can choose to calculate money in 2 ways.

 

1. Income imported into Thailand (in a calendar year) Calculated according to Thai methods

 

So that’s it: simply calculate your income tax according to Thai methods.

 

 

 

The small print at the bottom is interesting where it states:

Quote

In the case of a country with a double tax treaty. There is no need to present a tax return in Thailand. Except in cases ...

It has me thinking the view of some of us that remitted pension income noted in a DTA as not being taxable in Thailand , but only taxable in the pension source country, does not need to go on a Thai tax return.  Further if that is one's only income then there is no need to submit a Thai tax return.

...and it goes on a bit to provide some ?? guidance where a DTA provides for both countries (source & Thailand) to tax a pension.

21 minutes ago, Guavaman said:

Even though Royal Decree No. 18 on DTAs was promulgated in 1962, the TRD has not included any provisions for claiming exemptions or foreign tax credits in the forms for filing personal income tax returns for 64 years; this demonstrates the TRD approach.

Thanks for the reference to Royal Decree No.18, B.E.2505 (1962).

I note (an English language translation) in Section-3 states:

Quote

 

"Section-3: Taxes and duties under the Revenue code shall be exempted for persons in accordance with the agreements on avoidance of double taxation which the government of Thailand has entered into or shall enter into with the government of foreign countries".

 

"Section-4:  The Minister of Finance shall be in charge and control of the execution of this Royal Decree".

 

So that makes it clear that taxes on income can be exempt dependent on the wording of a DTA.  Further, the Minister of Finance is the one who needs to implement any of the details in regards to foreign tax credits ... and also if such tax exempt income need be included in a tax return.

Given the Minster of Finance (via the Revenue Department) has elected to put no place in the Thailand tax return forms (neither English language nor Thai language that I can find) for such exempt income to be listed as tax exempt, then I believe that supports the viewpoint that such tax exempt income (per the specific DTAs as authorized by Royal Decree 18) need not be included in a Thailand tax return.

Edit: Obviously this is my opinion.  I am not a tax advisor nor a tax expert.

6 minutes ago, newbee2022 said:

That's wrong what you write. The tax office accept eg your bank statement in Thai or English.

A certified translation of supporting documents is not required.

Its possible whether a non-Thai language statement is accepted could be up to the local RD office. 

Frankly I don't know, but I suspect each RD office has flexibility in its requirements and hence by having such in print it means if they are short of staff and don't have enough staff familiar with English language, they can insist on only Thai language.

24 minutes ago, newbee2022 said:

And your comments about the remarks of the officer are senseless

What part of the reply I made don't you understand?

There is a discussion going on in this forum about whether non-taxable (ie tax free) remitted foreign income should be treated as assessable tax exempt income (and hence included on a tax form) , or treated as non-assessable income (and hence not included on a tax form).

I interpret the RD official , by stating that "state pensions" are tax free, she means it should not be included on a Thai tax return.  But you did not type that and I am curious if she stated that.  If she did, that would support the view that such a state pension is non-assessable and should not be included on a tax return.

25 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

The Certificate of Clearance could end up being the same.

 

... and it might not.  TIT. Who knows?